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I peirced my DDs ears yesterday.... - Page 11

post #201 of 433
And again I am being misinterpretted.

I said "I am not making any statement about ear piercing." And I was not. I was making a statement about causing our children pain. Any sort of pain or discomfort, really. To say that it is something we should never do or do never do is over the top. Not that we shouldn't be gentle, I absolutely understand the aim of MDC to promote gentle ideals (hence gentle discipline, hence gentle birth choices, hence cosleeping and breastfeeding and the case against circumcision), but that sometimes we are not gentle. I was pointing out accidents, or choices that were in the best interest of my child, like an IV to knock him out so that he could have his mouth cut up and sewn back together. I am saying that it is a fallacy to say that it is an outrage that we cause our infants pain all the time. Pain does happen very often. My son still hurts himself daily by falling or bumping into walls or as he was just doing as I changed his diaper, pulling his own hair. I don't think he's just blatantly disregarding the preciousness of his own body, however. I think he's trying it out and seeing what it can do and he's just not quite skilled enough to never bump his head (I'm not that skilled either). This is no way a statement about piercing. This was a statement about inflicting or experiencing pain that is not malicious or ill-intentioned, yet still it happens.
post #202 of 433
post #203 of 433
just going to jump in here to say that piercing places in the maul are not! a sterile place and is not done w/ truly sterile procedure, also their method of puncturing is much more damaging to the skin, then a piercing done w/ a hollow needle. those people are not adequately trained

and no, i would not pierce my dd's or ds' ears w/o their consent and if they ever wanted earings would go to a trained piercer who would use sterile procedure.

dh's is a tattoo artist and this is one of his pet peeves.
post #204 of 433
No, I think the key phrase should be unnecessary and intentional. I did intentionally yet necessarily allow the nurses to continue poking my son with needles until they found a vein that finally worked when he became dehydrated during a hospital stay.
post #205 of 433
Is there really anybody on this thread who doesn't understand and appreciate the difference between pain caused by necessary medical procedures, and pain caused purely by choice? I don't understand where the disagreement is coming from.
post #206 of 433
I'm not sure I should really even bother, but as I am the source of all this mess I will try. I was responding to Britishmum's comment about it being against MDC's values to cause infant's pain and how can we advocate that. I was trying to say that it was not as simple as being against pain. That's all. Wemoon didn't get what I was saying. Annakiss did.

I'm bothered that some of what I have been trying to say in my posts is being interpreted as flippant and "kid gloving." I wholeheartedly agree with the merits of debate and I really dig a heated one. I don't think that we should all go around saying "I don't agree with you, but it is fine to go ahead and do whatever you want." I really don't know how else to say what I'm trying to say. There are so many posts now that I can agree that the majority are respectful, but there were several initially that I thought were too hurtful to be heard, that's all.

I work in labor and delivery and special care nursery. I am in a perpetual state of cognitive dissonance. I have had to learn that people are going to do what they are going to do. People make decisions with the information they have and from where they are in their lives. I have opportunities to jump in and say things like "So why are we doing this induction?" and actually have a woman say she doesn't want it and get her home. That's rare, though. Mostly they just go on and do it. Same with circumcision. I have better luck with getting people off on the right foot with breastfeeding. It's rough to ever convince someone to turn down routine procedures, antibiotics, etc. I just do my best, giving as much information and a different way of looking at things as possible. I've learned to just keep my mouth shut a majority of the times and simply live my values. The ones who are open to it see it and they ask me questions. I've had tons of lovely conversations about not circ'ing, breastfeeding, babywearing, elimination communication, you name it. But these are with people who are open to it. The one time "genital mutilation" passed my lips was the last. Very inflammatory. Completely shut down the conversation. (It was with a doc, not a patient.)

I've had to accept that I am not going to change everybody's minds, just some, and it is too taxing on me to use my energy in every single wrong situation. And it's wrong to me. It may not be to them. It really isn't my place to say. I just have to keep putting my ideas out there and see if they take root.

I think it is a pretty big leap to say that we should just let everyone do whatever they want and not ever say anything for fear of hurting their feelings. That isn't what I am getting at all.

P.S. My baby threw herself on the floor and had herself a big ol' tantrum today because she could not wear my earring. I thought that rather ironic.
post #207 of 433
Ok, OT for a bit, but this is beautiful:
From Khalil Gribran:

Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
They come through you but not from you.
And though they are with you, yet they belong not to you.
post #208 of 433
To OP: I didn't judge you. I said something about cultural context and how as someone who has pierced ears and doesn't wear earrings I don't think it's that irrevocable and irreversible a decision.
post #209 of 433
I got my ears pierced semi-willingly when I was around 11. My mom and grandmother sort of goaded me into it. It was at one of those places at the mall and it hurt like hell. All I can say is, if you must do this to your infant, go to someone who actually KNOWS what they're doing, not some cheesy mall kiosk.

I haven't worn earrings in about ten years (I'm 32) because even gold would make my ears red, itchy, and often swollen. I suspect my daughter, being the fashion plate she is, will want her ears pierced eventually. First I will inform her it hurts like a mother, then if she still wants to do it I'll take her to a good piercing parlor where bored teenage girls working for minimum wage won't be doing the piercing. :
post #210 of 433
Annakiss, true, I should have added that one. Sophiamama, great post!
post #211 of 433
I concur about your post Sofiamomma!

Calm - you really are calm! I didn't mean to sound snarky... I'm just tired of having to reiterate what I mean...
post #212 of 433
I haven't posted in here for awhile because it has just gone kinda crazy for me. There is such an obvious difference between medical and necessary procedures and ear piercing that I just have no clue what to even say about it. I DID misunderstand your post Sofiamomma, I had no clue what you were talking about. Now I understand and do not understand why this conversation is still going on this path! There is no relation to the two instances, unless for some reason someone needs to pierce ears for medical reasons???

Again, Annakiss, I feel really sad that you had to go through this with your son.

If anyone wanted to hear the rest of Kahlil Gabran, here is the chapter on children in The Prophet, you can also go on to read the first couple chapters and the rest of the book for that matter from this link: http://www.columbia.edu/~gm84/gibran4.html
post #213 of 433
Thank you wemoon.

I honestly do not understand why that discussion has gone on either, except that not everyone understood initially, just as you did not. I think it's over now
post #214 of 433
Wow, made it through all 11 pages!

I started asking for pierced ears when I was young - around second grade maybe? Some classmates had them. My dad told me when I was 18 or moved out of the house, whichever came first. Even though I was spoiled in every other way ($50 Sara jeans, etc.), no amount of begging would change his mind. My mom never had pierced ears (she was raised Mormon; not sure if that had anything to do with it or not).

As the years wore on, all my classmates (well, all the girls) got them. (I was the last girl in my class to get a bra too - I think my parents were very consious of their kids not growing up too soon) After my dad died, my mom let me get them pierced the next time I asked. I was 13. It was fine. But I think all the years of my dad being against it affected how I thought about them subconsiously? I soon got bored of them and never wore earrings much after the first year or so. They grew back.

In college, I had them repierced (same spots) and same thing happened (wore them a year then bored, let them grow back). Now I have not worn earrings for over ten years and can't get earrings in my ears but the spots are still visible (so there is a permanent part to it even if/when the holes grow back). Doesn't really bother me (especially because it was my choice to do it both times) but I do wish I never had had them done - but it is not something I think about except while reading this thread.

We have three girls and our dd1 has asked for pierced ears MANY times, starting in first grade or so. She is in third grade now and has pretty much given up asking as she knows I am firm in the "12 or 13 years old" plan. I have given a fair amount of thought as to why I feel this way. I think my dad's voice in my head is part of it - I adored the man. My impression is that it is a grown up thing to do, like wear makeup or high heels - and that it is unbecoming on young girls (it took me a long time to think of a nice way to say that! . Some things are a matter of age IMO.

As a child, my neighbor had hers done at a young age (six?) and they were constantly infected, one side grew hair all around the piercing (it was odd).

Re: the culture reasoning - I am trying to be respectful of this but it is hard for me to understand. I had an ear to ear grin when I read the poster who said "I am jewish, my dh is jewish, our son is intact". I can imagine how much flak one must get when going against "tradition" but so respect those that make that choice.

I was in a mom/baby group with a mom whose culture shaved girls (boys too - not sure on that) heads at a year old I think it was. To the rest of us, it was a different idea but the baby is a year old (not exactly teasing age), the hair will grow back, no pain is inflicted. Of course none of the rest of us would do it but it is not something that we had an "up side" for. We were respectful of her option to do it. She ended up not doing it.

I think ear piercing is somewhere in between shaving your head and circumcision. For me personally, I would not do any of them but they fall on very different parts of the spectrum.

I think when you post anything, you should expect that varied opinions will be given. It is nice if they are given respectfully. But I don't think anyone should expect to be agreed with all the time, especially when the OP made it so clear that she was very conflicted herself. BTW, I am VERY mainstream in comparison to 99% of this board. So it is not as much in the "it is not AP/respectful of the child" (even though I agree with that - it is the pain part that is hard to justify) as it is "just not what seems appropriate on an infant or young child" for me.

And ONE LAST THING - promise! Someone mentioned that no one argued against letting their child have pierced ears when the CHILD asked for it - I think a few have and I will join that group. Maybe it is thought by some to be respectful of the child to let her if she asks but I don't think my child should be allowed to do whatever her four year old mind thinks fun at the moment. My eight year old thinks she should be able to sit in the front seat of the car (we have an airbag) - nope. It is my job as her mother to reign in ideas I think inappropriate (and I can see the differerence between the very different consequences of having your ears pierced and being struck by the airbag). I realize that other moms may have different opinions on what is appropriate - good thing we live in America!
post #215 of 433
Sorry, I kind of went over the top about "kid glove" treatment and all. I think I was reacting to some other posts I have read in addition to this one and that caused me to go off on a rant. Not really fair! Sorry!
post #216 of 433
Mountain, I should prob. PM you in case you don't come back, but how would you feel if I used the Khalil Gribran quote you included? I love it.
post #217 of 433
Originally Posted by annakiss
No, I think the key phrase should be unnecessary and intentional.
But "necessary" is opinion. You child doesn't "necessarily" need his syrup smeared shirt changed (if, for example, he resists clotehs changing, cries hysterically, has to be restrained - gently as possible, of coruse). But in our culture, a kid wearing a fairly clean shirt to grandmas or preschool etc is loosely necessary. I can understand that, in another culture, a baby girl wearing earings would be loosely necessary.

Still don't think it a "good" thing (changing the shirt or piercing the babe). Still baffled by the hyperbole in this thread.
post #218 of 433

Virgin Ears

Whew! It took half an hour to read all the posts. My goodness. I did smile at the poster who commented on "virgin ears" - that must have been me you were talking to when you were 11.

My mom didn't have pierced ears and so I never really was interested in them. I don't have pierced ears and so far my kids have not shown any interest in them as well. There is no cultural thing here, it's just not a big deal. Once in awhile they comment about their friends at school having pierced ears, but that's where it ends, with a comment.

Honestly, (hee hee) the real reason that I don't have pierced ears is because my grandmother had pierced ears - and she used to wear heavy earings and they stretched the holes in her ears and I used to think it looked so gross. My mom confessed that that was the same reason she never did hers.

I love my "virgin ears" (never thought of them as that before LOL) and I have never missed not knowing about wearing earings. The interesting part is that in my 40 years, I have never had another person comment on the fact that my ears are not pierced. No one has commented about our kids either...

I did watch a baby (about 8 months old) getting hers done in the window of one of those "mall places". You could hear her scream throughout the aisle. My heart broke for her and my stomach ached (I almost puked). I am glad pierced ears is a non-issue in our family.
post #219 of 433
To the OP, I'm sorry people jumped all over you. I think people used overly strong language and were probably well aware that their comments would sting. They intentionally inflicted pain and decided to do it anyway.

Anyway, I don't find earrings attractive in general, certainly not on children or babies, but so what? I absolutely don't think it's disrespectful or abusive to pierce a baby's ears. Unnecessary and silly, yes, abusive and disrespectful, no. It's no different than choosing your child's religion or where they will grow up. These things have a much larger impact on a child's life than whether or not they have earrings.

And I agree with those who stated that equating piercing a baby's ears to abuse is disrespectful to those who have suffered abuse. I thought mountain's post about pinching was particularly cruel. People abuse their children because they have unresolved anger issues or mental illness or extremely poor parenting skills. People pierce their kids' ears because they have made a decision about their child's appearance. You may not like that some parents feel it's ok to choose for their child how their child looks, but to say it's abusive is mean.

When I was a social worker I had a 9-year-old client whose father nailed his foot to the floor. He intentionally chose to inflict pain on his child by drilling a hole in his child with a piece of metal. Who is seriously going to equate ear piercing with that?

I gave up on standing "on principle" when my best friend of 27 years almost didn't let me be her child's babysitter when she went back to work when her daughter was 11 weeks old. Why did she almost not let me? Because I am not Christian and she and her husband are. They felt that, in principle, the best thing for their daughter was to be in a Christian environment, so they were going to send her to a Christian daycare where she would be one of 12 infants with 2 caregivers. They told me, "We're concerned about what would happen if she asked you, for example, Why are there seeds in apples? We'd say, Because God put them there. What would you say?" Ok, hello, your child is 11 weeks old! I don't think that's an issue we'll be dealing with anytime in the near future! But to them, the principle of being in a Christian environment was more important than the actual care their daughter would receive. After several tense weeks, they decided to let me babysit her, everything worked out well, and the mom quit working to stay home with the kid before she was even verbal.

So, the lesson I took from that? EVERY situation is unique, and no one principle holds up in every single situation, ever. Even Buddha felt that there were certain circumstances when killing another human was the best choice to make, even though the first of the Five Precepts is that you not harm another living thing.

All that to say, I don't buy the "it's the principle of the thing" argument to accuse someone of being abusive of their child.

post #220 of 433
Originally Posted by dharmamama
So, the lesson I took from that? EVERY situation is unique, and no one principle holds up in every single situation, ever. Even Buddha felt that there were certain circumstances when killing another human was the best choice to make, even though the first of the Five Precepts is that you not harm another living thing...
Obviously there are instances when it is necessary to take somebody else's life - (To preserve your own which is being threatened, perhaps?) but pray tell, what is the "certain circumstance" that makes it appropriate to force one's cosmetic preferences into a nonconsenting child's body via a piercing gun?
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