Are We Disciplining the Creativity out of Children?

[Calm]

Do you discipline your child for things you believe in, or do you sometimes discipline them for things they "should" learn according to society but not necessarily what you believe in your heart?

Ok, that wasn't very clear,,, I'll try again. For instance, if my DD stands on the coffee table, I have no problem with that. Sometimes we dance on the coffee table together (it is a very strong one, so no safety digs there please LOL). Sooooo, if I were to tell her to get off the coffee table, that would be because I would be trying to teach her that generally, society would prefer you don't stand on tables.

Moving on...we go to a friend's home, she stands on their coffee table. I tell her that Jane prefers we don't stand on her table, and she gets down. We go to dinner, she attempts to move from the booth onto the table, I have the waiter tell her himself that she should get down, it isn't allowed in this restaurant. She sheepishly gets down. Therefore, I think that is more in line with reality, the real bounderies of society will be taught to them without us having to tell them not to do things if we don't really care if they do.

I have seen so many parents posts things here that I perceive as almost creative genius in the child, only to find the responses are sometimes, "perhaps you should see a psychologist". If a child doesn't behave the way we have been trained to behave, we pull them in line so they "learn" how society works. Thereby, crushing potential creative thinking. My DD wears shoes on her hands sometimes, my first thought was "why didn't I think of that?" Where my mother was like, "You can't walk in public with her shoes on her hands!" I thought that was really creative, and my mother saw it as a time to teach "conformity, society rules etc"

Am I making sense? I often don't apparently !

I think many struggles could be avoided (and have been in my home) if we embrace children's strange ideas and see them as creative instead of going against the grain. Is it more important to a parent to teach a child "how to fit in" to society than to embrace the uninhibited ideas and innocent exploration of a child? Which ultimately, with gentle guidance, could create the next Leonardo Da Vinci (who thought extraordinarily "out of the square").

And sorry, lastly...many parents say this: "If I don't teach them this, they won't learn the bounderies of society." Which to me, is the most crippling thing to "teach" a child.

Go ahead, flame away, I'm braced and ready.

[UnschoolnMa]

You will not get any flames from this mama! I very much agree with you. The "just because you are supposed to" rules haven't ever held up for me if that is all they were about. I have shared what society generally expects of people, but I have also shared that I don't agree with a great deal of all that so... Jumping on the bed, we often did that together (well when we had a different bed. We've discussed why jumping on the ones we have no wouldn't be such a good idea and she's totally cool with it) The choice to wear a coat outside is theirs to make based on whether or not she feels she needs one, not because the world says we wears coats when it's cold. In a way, giving them control over their language (swearing ) fits in I think too, because society says that children shouldn't swear just because they are children, and I disagree etc.

I think children with different ideas, personalities, and actions are labeled (I understand that some children do have disorders that are valid... please don't misunderstand me ) more often than they are embraced and accepted just as they are, for who they are . This is also one reason I am very against school. Blending into society has never been my goal, and it isn't my childrens either. For instance the way you handle being on the coffee table at home, and at someone else's home is just the way I would handle it. Personal freedoms and choices is something my family is *very* big on, and it is something I find many just do not understand when it comes to children

[sunnmama]

In our home (our life), there are different rules for in the house (actually, very few rules in the house) than out of the house (at other homes, schools, restaurants, etc). At home, the rules are safety and kindness, with a couple added in to make sure everyone gets enough rest. That is pretty much it, so, no--I don't believe that at home we are disciplining according to society's standards. She is free to create, explore, and just be silly in our home. She has no obligation to dress at all in our home, and if she chooses to dress, she does not have to wear things any particular ("right") way. Her body, her choice.

Out of home, things get more difficult to balance. Have to consider other people's property and space, other patrons in restaurants and stores, other students in school, etc. My dd has been able to easily understand that there are differing behavioral expectations at home and away from home, so I have never felt the need to enforce the same level of "societal standards" at home (thankfully!).

A quick "for instance":
Dd likes to play rhyming games, and, at home at least, she likes the rhyming words to be mildly "naughty". It is just so much fun to rhyme words with dart (fart), shiny (heiny), and goopy (poopy). Her absolute fav is blanket (spank it no...we have never spanked her. That is why it is so funny ). She also likes to play rhyming games at restaurants (keeps her entertained), but she knows that she can not say these "naughty" words in a restaurant. It just isn't tasteful! But she likes us to ask "What rhymes with dart?" so that she can say and laugh

Have I missed the point completely? I guess what I am saying is that--I believe that we can allow our children room for creative freedom at home without fearing that they will not learn society's norms. And I also believe that we can teach society's norms, but put them in the proper perspective--these are what these people feel is appropriate/what is appropriate for this place, but not what is inherently "right" or "wrong".

[NatureMama3]

no flames here either!

I believe that we can allow our children room for creative freedom at home without fearing that they will not learn society's norms. And I also believe that we can teach society's norms, but put them in the proper perspective--these are what these people feel is appropriate/what is appropriate for this place, but not what is inherently "right" or "wrong".

yes!!! that!

[MsMoMpls]

I agree wholeheartedly but...as the therapist who parents are dragging their kids to- its the kids who can't adjust between the complexities of different expectations that sometimes need help. Certainly school is most often a problem, it can be a really hostile environment for creative, sensitive kids. But some kids struggle within fairly healthy boundaries and may need emotional coaching or healing help. Just like the families that post here for support, it can be helpful to get a fresh perspective. Some parents haven't worked through their own childhood well enough to parent the way they would like.

[littleaugustbaby]

I think that a big problem is that society expects children to behave like adults, and we fail to recognize normal, age-appropriate behavior in children.

MsMoMpls really makes a great point though. When the children have one set of expectations at home, and another outside the home, how do they adapt? I'm very interested to see discussion on this.

[Calm]

They adapt the way we as adults adapt to different situations. I think we tend to underestimate the intelligence of children. Sure, they lack experience, but not necessarily intelligence. I was brought up with few limitations. I could put my feet on the table at dinner if I felt like it, for instance. At school, I quickly learned that it wasn't to be done there. And I certainly didn't need a list from my mother of all the things I'd have to change to fit in at school. Good point though.

And maybe I should have gone even deeper into what I was saying. When we put "rules" on children, even outside the home, what are they based on? As a for instance, not wearing shoes. I have spoken to a friend about this, and asked why she insists on her child wearing shoes. She said for safety at first. Then when I said, what if that wasn't an issue? She said, "well, it just doesn't look good, my son will look like we come from a poor house." Which is where I am trying to go with this.

Many of the restraints and conditions we place on children are based on other's perceptions, conformity, expectations and belief. Each one of those things worthy of a text book in themself. Each reader, as a bit of fun and inner searching, indulge me a moment. Think about one or all of these scenarios:

- your child saying "I don't like you." to a friend of yours.
- dc wearing no shoes somewhere like a mall.
- dc swearing eg, SH** or other such words.
- eating dinner using their mouth at the plate ie, no utensils, like a dog.
- eating with their fingers older than 5 years.
or any other situation where you feel uncomfortable and feel the need to show them a better way.

Have you pictured it? Ok, now, how does it feel? Do you feel ashamed of yourself, of your child? Do you feel like the whole world, or at least those near perceives you as a bad parent? When you can clearly picture the scenario, is it really important to teach them "our" way of doing things (eg, safety, hygiene), or is it purely society or belief that motivates our controlling tendencies?

Please keep in mind that I am just trying to open a channel of thought. As I search my own motivations for things, I am sharing here my journey, in a sense. It is amazing the things we can be controlling for that with deeper thought, aren't that important. As parents we often insist children not speak their mind, for instance, as it is embarrassing when they do sometimes.

Anyway, look forward to your thoughts.

[Aura_Kitten]

my brain is mostly dead tonight but i just wanted to put this in quickly ~ i used to see no problem w/ my son being on sturdy tables, like you, until he fell off of one and bit clear through his bottom lip + had to go to the ER.

rules are there to protect people.

[PumpkinSeeds]

doing things in an unconventional way like wearing shoes on your hands is one thing while safety issues like running through the house with a pencil in your hand is quite another. IMO

I personally don't see the creativity of children jumping on the furniture (that's just me) but if my son wants to go shopping with only 1 shoe on or completely naked that's his choice.

So I guess I'm saying unconventional is ok by me, but I get to rate the safety aspect of it since I'm the adult/parent.

I hope that gets read the way I meant it.

[Calm]

"rules are there to protect people."

What about the rules that aren't?

[UnschoolnMa]

Calm wrote:
I have spoken to a friend about this, and asked why she insists on her child wearing shoes. She said for safety at first. Then when I said, what if that wasn't an issue? She said, "well, it just doesn't look good, my son will look like we come from a poor house." Which is where I am trying to go with this.

I think this happens a lot. People wonder "but what will the neighbors think?" about many things. Perhaps it has something to do with over zealous and misguided CPS agencies or whatever that we constantly worry what is thought about our parenting, and that they might turn us in. The truth is that even though I have met (mostly online) like minded parents, I have yet to meet someone who parents exactly as I do. Which is why I don't really focus what others think much. If I let others (people we deal with in our lives anyway) beliefs dictate my parenting the kids would be in school (ick), attending conservative Christian church classes, getting spankings, being grounded, and never watching tv. They'd have a bedtime, and be forced only to eat what and when I said they could. We don't do any of that stuff though, because we feel it's not right for us. Given the above list of stuff can you tell what kind of extended family we deal with? lol....

I do guide the kids about safety now, and did much more when they were wee ones. The issues look different now of course. (I have no need to counsel my 13 yr old on why running with a pencil or paring knife is no good, but I did when he was was 4 KWIM?) Sometimes though, I think that parents squash childrens ideas just cause they don't want to deal with it (not referring to people here necessarily..) My friends little girl loved to play in water. She always wanted it to be bathtime, and would request a bath mid day or not long after she'd already had one. My friend would tell her she couldn't have one, and when I asked why she'd say it was due to the girl getting UTI from bath water. Fair enough. But when the child asked to play with water but not in it, she continued to say that it wasn't healthy. It seemed to me that she just didn't want to deal with it, and she knew that her daughter would take the warning of it not being healthy to heart and stop asking at least for a little while. Instead of supporting her daughter's water wonder she squelched it with some made up health reason.

Some rules make sense, and some just do not. Some seem to be in place just because "everyone does/nobody does" or because that is how it's always been. That doesn't work for me without a valid, make sense reason behind it. I encourage my kids to challenge such things. If we explain about respecting other peoples' space, feelings (with exceptions) and property and how behavior can be different in different places, I don't think that it's so hard to have kids be thier unique selves.

Also, my daughter did once tell a friend of mine that she (my daughter) didn't want to go to her house anymore. When my friend asked her why my daughter answered, "because you yell too much now, and your house is icky" She was 5, and it was true. Just some more thoughts on this. I love this thread so far. Smiles

[sunnmama]

Well, my dd, for one, challenges my requests a lot :LOL So, when they are based on my self-conciousness (rather than a true safety issue), I often have an opportunity to rethink the request and allow her the personal freedom she craves.

For instance, she will be choosing clothing, and want to wear a shirt and pants and a dress on top. And I might (unthinkingly) say, "No, dresses don't go on top of pants"--and she says "Why not?"....and then I say, "You are right, they are your clothes. Wear what you want". Frankly, I get lots of the "Oh, did dd dress herself today?" comments, and I just don't care

So, I think I see where you are coming from, Calm, and agree with you. I try to eliminate the needless power struggles from our life, and dd's questioning helps me to do that. She does, indeed, eat her pasta with her face "like a horsey eating hay" at home. But she does not eat her pasta that way in a restaurant. I guess I am lucky because dd has never had a problem adapting to the rules of differing environments.

[MsMoMpls]

To clarify my position- I agree that children are wonderfully intelligent and flexible and can manage diverse expectations. I think consistancy in parenting is highly over-rated. If you are a pretty stable human being, your reactions are pretty stable. Its not like some days its ok to hit the cat and other days it isn't. They can sometimes play on the table and sometimes not. They can play on the table but if they get too wild, they are done. That is shaping behavior- we do it all day without thinking about it. We teach them how loud is too loud, how rough is too rough. There can't be rules per say.

I think kids learn the difference between mom and dad, outside and inside, home and public. And a very important part of that is learning by pushing the limits.

I believe most abusive parenting is related to parents feeling too much need to control behavior, teach them a lesson, make sure they don't get away with something, etc. Kids that get scolded, told no, limited too often just get smaller, stop reaching out, stop testing and that is the death of creativity.

Therapy is helpful for kids when they are really unable to manage those diverse expectations and more often for parents whose own childhood issues keep them from parenting from a rational, stable place.

[annettemarie]

Originally Posted by littleaugustbaby

MsMoMpls really makes a great point though. When the children have one set of expectations at home, and another outside the home, how do they adapt? I'm very interested to see discussion on this.

From what I remember from my grad school early childhood cognitive development class, most kids are able to shift from one set of expectations to another (called framing). One set of rules at child care, another at home, some things are OK to say/do with Mama, but not with Daddy. I would guess it would be the kids who have difficulty shifting who would need more structure and consistancy with the rules
Annette

[NatureMama3]

Originally Posted by littleaugustbaby

MsMoMpls really makes a great point though. When the children have one set of expectations at home, and another outside the home, how do they adapt? I'm very interested to see discussion on this.

That's one reason we homeschool. I don't think it's fair to expect my children to live so dividedly for long periods before they're fully able to understand the differences in expectation.

Society has the problem, not my children.

rules are there to protect people.

from themselves, and as such there should be few.

Most of society's "rules" (such as those calm mentioned) are there for the benefit of those OTHER than the individual. We are constantly told to "live" for others. Look nice, dress snappy, etc. For who? for others!

Well I don't live for others pleasure and I don't teach my children to live for others pleasure. My kids DO walk barefoot when they wish, DO eat with their hands still, DO say "salty" words on occasion. I couldn't control it even if I wanted to, I guess their wired personalities is a blessing in disguise that way. They're certainly not the kind to let another dictate their thoughts or actions.


Rather than punish my kids who DO have difficulty transitioning, I choose to "shelter" them (as it were) so that they CAN be themselves. At some point they'll have less trouble transitioning and I won't need to shelter them as much. I really don't think its in my children's best interest to squash their natural creativity because it's distasteful to others for no good reason.


I do understand that some parents lack objectivity and stability, but I don't see that as a good argument for all parents to follow those "rules".

[Bippity]

I just wanted to pop in & say thanks to all the Mom's further down the road than me for this thread. My DD's just 17 months and we don't have many rules... this is good food for thought! I was raised in a pretty strict and conservative home & I do NOT want to pass this feeling of repression onto my child! I want her to know it's ok to disagree with people and society and she can do what she knows in HER heart is right and best for her and if it doesn't work out well, her Dad & I will be there to help her figure out what to do next. I sooooo don't want her to be afraid of me like I was afraid of my parents!

[BelovedBird]

Who was going to flame you for that??

Btw, sup:

[fiddledebi]

Calm, as someone who has had this particular discussion with you in another thread (and appreciates your thoughts and how non-judgemental you were!), I thought about your scenarios:

your child saying "I don't like you." to a friend of yours.

I wouldn't tell DD that she couldn't say that, but WOULD ask her right on the spot why she did. What doesn't she like? Why doesn't she like it? How did saying it make my friend feel? How would it feel if someone said that to her? At no point would I say, "We don't say that to people!" or "Don't say that, DD!," but I would want to talk right there about all the implications of it.

dc wearing no shoes somewhere like a mall.

I would be opposed to this and wouldn't allow it. That, to me, is a safety issue. If someone dropped something glass or a pin from clothing or something like that, I'd worry. However, DD wearing boots to the mall in summer or protective-soled slippers or two different shoes -- those would be no problem, as long as she was protected.

dc swearing eg, SH** or other such words.

This is a harder one. My first thought is that, no, this is unacceptable, even at home. Those are angry words, mostly, and not very descriptive and generally will make others around DD uncomfortable. So, it is a societal reason, for sure. I guess I'd rather teach her meaningful words for her emotions -- "I'm so angry!" or "This toy doesn't work and that's not fun!" or "You mean man!" or whatever she's trying to get across. However, those are the same standards I try to follow myself. I think I'd like some convincing from those who don't have issues with curse/foul words coming from their kids. How did you come to be ok with it?

eating dinner using their mouth at the plate ie, no utensils, like a dog.

No problem there at home where we can change wet/dirty clothes and clean our own table. Out at a restaurant, convenience becomes an issue.

eating with their fingers older than 5 years.

Absolutely no problem at any age, anywhere, assuming the above is not an issue (convenience of cleanup). Heck, I eat many, many things with my fingers that you're not "supposed" to.

Since my heated discussion on another thread on this issue, I've really tried to say no to a whole lot fewer things. It's very liberating when you decide to stop struggling on things that don't really matter. I am still working on how to incorporate my needs into the equation -- for example, I don't mind if she gets soaked and covered with soap suds playing in the sink if we're home for the day and have the time and ability to dry her off, but the 2 days a week I have to go to work and take her to daycare, I just don't have time for it first thing in the morning. She's upset because I say "no sink playing now, now we have to eat and get our coats on and get in the car." I have to say no sometimes, totally for my convenience. Do I count? Should I count? This is where I still struggle.

[Breathless Wonder]

a rational, stable place.

In the context of this thread, I find this comment interesting.

I was wondering if you could clarify? My interpretation of what you are saying is that some parents allow behavior that is outside of the norm because they have baggage from their past and are REACTING. That allowing their child these freedoms are not so much a conscious decision, but more an "up yours" to soceity in general, or a refection of, for lack of a better word, deficiencies in their own upbringing.

If I have interpreted this correctly, then how does a parent or psychologist (or other outside observer) determine if a parent is parenting from "a rational, stable place.", or "reacting" to left over baggage from your childhood.

[NatureMama3]

I took the rational, stable place in the context of this:

If you are a pretty stable human being, your reactions are pretty stable. Its not like some days its ok to hit the cat and other days it isn't.

to mean parents who aren't consistent. Consistency is at least as important as gentle discipline so it needs to happen too.

I think too many however think that consistence must mean harshness, rules, etc. It means reacting consistently so that your children know what to expect. Not spanking them for jumping on the bed one day then having the whole family jump on the bed for fun the next (for a wild "instance").