Are We Disciplining the Creativity out of Children? - Page 5

[Calm]

ICM - beautiful! That is YOU becoming creative! Love it!

Maya - thanks for clarifying, and your answers are perfect (for me, whatever that's worth). It is amazing when we dig deeper and question instead of jump to conclusions - your first post had me wondering - hmmmm, how strict is this woman? But now! Nooo, I see what you are saying, and this is a perfect example of why on these forums we should ask questions before we pass opinions. If i were to get picky, I could go into language use (gross, etc and why it offends) but as far as I am concerned, the important thing is that there is thought behind your direction, not just some willy nilly rules to prove you're boss. Many parents force their children to eat whatever they are given and put conditions on dessert, and this is one of the causes of eating disorders and obesity - the desire in adulthood to have control of their bodies and food.

I would like to know, from anyone, not just Maya, what it is about the finishing the meal together rule. It is a lovely practise, and shows consideration, but I thought that was mostly for restaurants. Sitting waiting for others to finish their meal would drive me bonkers, let alone if I were under 10 years old. Anyone?

[Mona]

Originally Posted by Calm

Sitting waiting for others to finish their meal would drive me bonkers, let alone if I were under 10 years old. Anyone?

When we eat DD can get down from her chair when she is getting "antsy"- i don't feel the need to torture her, or myself, by making her sit there. The rest of us hang out until we are ready to move out of the kitchen area, and she stays in there w/ us playing or visiting various people ( i have an extended family living situation).
When we're at a restaraunt, and she gets antsy, my dh or i will get up and walk around w/ her for awhile and then return to the table.

[maya44]

Calm

Let me just answer (though I certainly would like to hear from others)


For us the family meal is VERY important. We all come together and leave together (this was expected from about age 2 1/2). This is a time to talk as a family.

We always dissuss the best/worst thing about our days and then usually have a discussion topic. These can be anything from "What kind of party do you want for your next birthday" to "Why do you think people believe in God" to "What was the one thing you were most worried about this year, and how is that turning out" to "What is the one thing that you wish you could do, but you don't have the ability"

Our family meals are great fun. What our family views as good manners are taught at the table and then expected.

In general I tell people "I am very strict, but I don't punish"

Most people have no idea that this is even possible.

[UnschoolnMa]

We only eat at the table maybe one night a week and beyond that only really for special occasions (sabbat/holiday dinners, company sometimes etc) and the rest of the time we eat wherever we want. We don't always eat at the same times though (dinner is made about 3 x a week) so eating together at the table would not work for my family. I do understand that this is a special time for many families though, and I think it's great.

Personally I would feel uncomfortable forcing a child to stay seated at the table after the point that she was comfortable there. It feels disrespectful, and it isn't something that I would appreciate having forced upon me. In a restaruant we also walked around to help our child work off the antsy feeling while waiting for food or whatever. We also were willing to leave if our child was just plain done.

[kakies]

Originally Posted by Calm

" If you prune your child, you are creating that which you think is beautiful, and the wildness within, which could be breathtaking, will not be seen. "

...that was beautifully put.

[allgirls]

I have been watching this thread with interest...

I think a balance needs to be struck as with everything in life....I try to NOT do things just because and it's easy for me because I have that kind of personality myself...drove MY mother round the bend because she was a "just because" kind of parent.

We have routine...2 older girls in school, pets to be fed, a toddler, children's activities etc. If I didn't have a routine then things would get missed. We have rules but they mostly are safety issues..."do not cross the highway" for example

However...if Sophia uses crayons on the walls then that's fine...we have Goo Gone to wash it off and she helps me do that....she knows that what's on the walls is temporary but what's on papers she keeps...she is starting to write on paper more and more. She also colours on the floor. When we go places I take her washable crayons so if she happens to color on someone elses walls it comes off easy. Usually it's her grandparents so they don't care.

As to meals, we all sit together every evening...we do not put her in her high chair until we are all ready to sit down...her maximum time before she wants out is 20 minutes but daily it varies. She sits in my lap or her daddy's lap for dinner if we are not done before her patience in the highchair wears thin. She can get down and play but she usually doesn't want to.

I let her play the way she wants to play...I let her play with stones and dirt and bugs and whatever...as long as it's safe.

I don't change her clothes and I let her get messy...most stains come out...

Now as to complaining and such...this right now would apply to my older children...

If I or anyone else served them a meal and they said "this is gross" I would explain that that is there opinion and that everyone else likes it and that it hurts peoples feelings when they work hard at something and it's insulting.

Right now my older girls at 10 and 14, well they wouldn't do that. They are pretty good at knowing how to behave in public, in a restaurant etc. But they were pretty wild according to others when they were toddlers. I thought they were fun!

I think you have to direct them and model the behaviour you want and eventually it will come. They will see that they get approval for certain behaviour, disapproval for other in society and will adapt to that. And as long as my children are principled and not afraid to buck society when they need to it's ok to go along with society in general.

I think there are lots of people who are disciplining the creativity out of children but then there are others who just are directing the children to be creative in ways they can live with.

I think the schools discipline the creativity out of children but that is a whole other thread!

[sntm]

Originally Posted by Calm

"More effective" is an interesting phrase. Mozart needed no guidance, in fact, if he got some, he may have turned out very differently. But, I intend on guiding DD's music in the years to come. She likes drums and keyboards, and my brother just happens to be a teacher of those.


No plant needs constraints. There are vines and beans that cling to trees as they grow, and this can be likened to a child who uses a parent as a guide and strength. But pruning, cutting back, staking, etc, that was started by humans in an effort to create that which they believed was more appealing. Nature is perfect as it is, and one can see that in any wild forest where no intervention has occurred. Yes, nice neat gardens are beautiful, I have some myself, but who is deciding this? One person's idea of beautiful is another's tragedy. My mother prefers wild growth. Her garden is a "mess" according to many books. But to her, it is natural and perfect. If you prune your child, you are creating that which you think is beautiful, and the wildness within, which could be breathtaking, will not be seen.

Interesting comments. With regards to the one on music, I would counter that for every Mozart, there may be dozens with the potential to be a Mozart if they had guidance in channeling their efforts. Not always having to reinvent the wheel, understand? Though, yes, I agree that sometimes reinventing the wheel may lead to unexpected advances, it also may waste time and energy. I'm glad to stand on the shoulders of giants and be guided by what has worked in the past.

The pruning example was thinking mostly about food-bearing and flowering plants. I have a lovely plant that produces beautiful flowers. When the flowers die, if they are left on the plant, the plant doesn't continue to flower. But if they are pruned off, the plant is freed to flower once more. There are beautiful wild plants, but there are also brambly wild plants.

I think there are lots of people who are disciplining the creativity out of children but then there are others who just are directing the children to be creative in ways they can live with.

Yes, this was my main point. I'm sure there are people who do this, but just because I discipline my child, and have rules and guideline for behavior that others do not, does not mean that my children will be any less creative than those who run naked through the streets cursing gleefully!

I read the OP as a (mild, possibly not intentioned) slight against my slightly "pruned" but magnificent and creative child, implying that he had the creativity disciplined out of him (though, Calm, I have enjoyed your posts and hope you do not take offense.)

[bionicsquirrel]

:

[zipperump-a-zoomum]

Originally Posted by UnschoolnMa

Personally I would feel uncomfortable forcing a child to stay seated at the table after the point that she was comfortable there. It feels disrespectful, and it isn't something that I would appreciate having forced upon me. In a restaruant we also walked around to help our child work off the antsy feeling while waiting for food or whatever. We also were willing to leave if our child was just plain done.

[Calm]

"I read the OP as a (mild, possibly not intentioned) slight against my slightly "pruned" but magnificent and creative child, implying that he had the creativity disciplined out of him (though, Calm, I have enjoyed your posts and hope you do not take offense.)"

Are you judging me? I take great offense at that. JOKE JOKE JOKE!!!!

Sorry, just foolin' with ya. I don't take offense easily, I figure, if offense is offered, AND I TAKE IT, then that's MY fault, isn't it? And anyway, you didn't say anything remotely offensive!

With the Mozart analogy, I hoped with my comment that I was going to get lessons for my girl it would even it out. Tis true, that discipline and guidance are essentials for any reasonably functioning being. And no, there was no slight, if for no other reason than I haven't met your child, so I wouldn't have a clue if he is pruned or not. Just sort of went with your examples, if you know what I mean.

After thinking about this thread, I have realised I should have called it "Are we ignoring potential creativity in our children". As I think that is more in line with where I was going. I wanted to open other's eyes to catching glimpses of what could be perceived as annoying, repetitive, messy, anti-social behavior as creative - often, not always.

I have seen waaaaay too many undisciplined children, and it ain't pretty. Discipline, especially the kind that instills self-discipline, is fine. I want the world to change. I want certain things to be different for my child's generation. I would like parents to challenge their pre-conceived ideas and think like a child as often as possible. Let go of the strong hold of "adulthood" and "rules for no apparent reason" and "going with the general consensus".

Children will be creative regardless - can you tell I like children a little? But IRL, I see parents squishing and molding and directing and "NO!"-ing and stopping and so on and so forth, all the while, the parent doesn't see the method in their child's madness.

My niece walked over to her father and threw a bunch of leaves and twigs at him, right over his head and face. He admonished her, from the angle of "don't throw things at people." and she was "but dad..." and he was "No, Jade, you just don't do that!" As she sat on the floor, with a sullen look on her face, I said, "Hey small person, wanna throw leaves?" she said, "I'm not allowed." I said, "Well, we can throw leaves at other things, not just daddy." she said, "I don't want to sprinkle him anymore anyway!"
"Sprinkle, what do you mean, sprinkle?"
Jade said, "It was magic fairy dust, and I made a wish and sprinkled him. I couldn't find my fairy dust, so I used stuff from the garden."

It broke my heart. Yet another "disciplinary action" that totally missed the method in her madness. Sure, she shouldn't throw things at people, but he could at least have found out what she was doing. Right?

Go ahead and guide your children with my blessing, just don't miss the finer points of childhood on the journey. They are everywhere!
You guys are too crunchy anyway, trying to find fault in your disciplinary tactics is like trying to find a needle in the proverbial haystack. Someone give me something easy! LOL!

[Mona]

great post calm, esp the story about your niece.
those kinds of stories happen all the time, dapening spirits galore. it is very sad indeed.

i really try to watch for those moments of creativity that may be clouded by "wrong" behaviour. it teaches me to really be in each moment, and to communicate, and take nothing for granted.

oh, maya, dinner time is a impt time for my family too. we share lots of things, and enjoy each otrhers company. it is impt that we all enjoy it , not just the adults.

gotta go....

[Laughingmommy]

Total tangent, but....

Speaking of Mozart, I've been thinking about how to encourage excellence in music (and other areas) in my children. I've decided that my conscience allows only this: that I offer myself as the role model. Mozart wouldn't have played the piano if he had no piano. So, I'll expose my kids to instruments, and art, and everything I think is great in the world. Including pruned trees and wild vines. And instead of finding a way to get my children to learn discipline, like in practicing violin for 1/2 hour a day, I would conduct these "classes" as sort of self-directed college courses, with no grades and final exams. What I've been doing is getting myself to sit down or stand up to practice whatever. To show them discipline in myself. This is really hard, and I'm not having success. But I'm convinced that this is the key. We gravitate towards passion. When I see someone passionate about playing piano, I want to play piano. Sometimes that inspiration is enough to carry me through months of practices. I hope to offer myself as a role model and a resource for my kids. I can show them technique, I can watch them practice, I can buy materials and equipment for them, but I can't make them practice. That's gotta be self-directed.

I feel like that about everything else. I can't force my kids to eat what I cook. But I can offer more possibilities. I can encourage kindness (i.e. no "this food is disgusting!") by showing them the natural consequences of mean-ness ("I feel hurt that you would call something I offered with time, labor, and love 'disgusting'"). Something like more guidance and less [parent-imposed] discipline.

[Calm]

that I offer myself as the role model. Mozart wouldn't have played the piano if he had no piano.

Including pruned trees and wild vines.

To show them discipline in myself.

I hope to offer myself as a role model and a resource for my kids.

I can offer more possibilities.

I can encourage kindness (i.e. no "this food is disgusting!") by showing them the natural consequences of mean-ness ("I feel hurt that you would call something I offered with time, labor, and love 'disgusting'").

You just blew my mind.

[MyTwoAs]

I just have to hop in here : I've just spent the last 30 minutes or so reading through this thread - very thought provoking. Thank you to everyone who's offered their opinions and experiences.

[OneCatholicMommy]

I call it "picking my battles."
However, I do NOT allow my boys to stand on our furniture, ever. That's one battle that we need to win , in this house. But if you let your daughter do it, than so be it!

[KellyB]

Another person stopping in to thank everyone for the depth of this discussion...I just read throught this whole thread, too...I feel...inspired!

[WuWei]

Bumping.

Pat

[**guest**]

i agree.

at home we paint on the walls.