In this situation, what is the GD solution?

[fljen]

Several years ago I worked at a Sam's Club in the demo department, the ladies who hand out the treats at Sam's

One demo lady was heavily pregnant, 7/8 mo, and a small child (4/5)hit her with his fist in the stomach. The mother said that he was expressing himself and the child did not apologize for hitting nor did the mother "make" him. That was the end of the incident, the demo lady was obviously upset and the woman and son moved on to more shopping.

Is this a typical GD response? What would you do with the child in this situation? I am very curious to find out what recourse one would have if one uses gentle discipline and one's child shows this type of behavior?

Thank you

[Bippity]

I'd say the chances are the child wasn't being respected and listened to for long before they got to the store, and if s/he was this wouldn't be so likely to happen.

But, just for grins & giggles & my general education, I'll use this as practice. (My dd is only 17 months so I'm still an early learner here!)

If it did happen... the first thing I think I would do is attend to the hurt woman, show her empathy and apologize for my child's bad behavior - offer to buy her a soda or get her a chair to sit down on - or whatever I could think of that she might need to feel better and know how sorry I am that this happened & I'd make sure my child is right there to see the consequences of his/her actions - (i.e., I can't pay attention to you right now, I feel badly for this woman and need to help her). Then I'd probably take my child back out to the car to talk about it a bit more. I'd ask my child, "why did you do that?" and "What were you feeling?" as non judgmentally as I possibly could to just learn more about what s/he was feeling that led to this happening. I don't think kids do things like that for no reason. For me it's about understanding the motivation behind behavior, listening to and understanding his/her feelings and then eventually get around to reinforcing the rule of we don't hit people, hitting hurts and saying something like, "I'm sad that you hit that woman - you hurt her with your hitting." Now we have to go home because I don't want to shop with you right now.

Well... how'd I do???

[polka hop]

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[Butter]

That's not gentle discipline, that's permissive parenting. Discipline actually loosely means to teach. Saying that a child is just expressing themselves when they punch someone is not teaching them anything but it is okay to punch someone. The gentle discipline approach would be to explain that punching hurts and that we do not do punch people. Given the child was not a small toddler I would want the child to apologize. GD guides a child to have self-discipline (i.e. not punch someone).

[Damien]

Permissive parenting?

Out of interest, what do you mean by permissive parenting? I've heard the term but thought it was synonymous with gentle discipline. Obviously I was mistaken.

On another note what is the definition of gentle discipline? What are it's practices? And how does it differ from permissive parenting?

Thank you in advance for any details that you can give me

[Nurturing Mama]

Out of interest, what do you mean by permissive parenting? I've heard the term but thought it was synonymous with gentle discipline. Obviously I was mistaken.

For me, permissive parenting is a lack of discipline. The parent allows the child to do anything and everything he/she wants with little or no guidance.

On another note what is the definition of gentle discipline? What are it's practices? And how does it differ from permissive parenting?

Several explanations of gentle discipline have been offered on your other thread. Gentle discipline is about teaching a child acceptable behavior without being punitive. It differs from permissive parenting because discipline is happening, and with permissive parenting, discipline is not happening. Practices differ depending on the age and capabilities of the child and the situation.

I'd say the chances are the child wasn't being respected and listened to for long before they got to the store, and if s/he was this wouldn't be so likely to happen.

This is completely outside of the realm of any of my child's behaviors so far. Supposing it did happen, and I wasn't watching him closely enough to stop it before it happened (which I usually am), I would probably act very similarly to what has been described by previous posters.

What is the response you would have thought to be appropriate from the parent?

[sunnmama]

Originally Posted by fljen

The mother said that he was expressing himself and the child did not apologize for hitting nor did the mother "make" him.

Herein lies the problem--he was *not* expressing himself. He was hitting, and that is not clear, effective communication. That mother did him a disservice by 1. not addressing the wrongness of hitting, and 2. not finding out *what* he was trying to express, and helping him express it more appropriately/effectively/*nonviolently* in the future.

If you are really interested in GD, a good "intro" read IMO is Kids Are Worth It! by Barbara Coloroso. I highly recommend it

[nikirj]

Oooh, this is a tough but almost-inevitable one with me. My 2.5yo doesn't express himself well verbally and hits a lot (it is declining now that he is getting better at talking to us), and although he has never hit a stranger, I can imagine it happening for whatever reason (overtired, not thinking, whatever).

I would apologize as quickly and sincerely (yes, it would be sincere, but quick) as I could, and then take DS aside where nobody else could hear us and talk to him about it. I do think that lecturing children in front of others, however gently we may try to do it, amounts to shaming and I try to avoid that. I would discuss how it isn't nice to hit people at all, how he knows that, how it is especially not nice to hit pregnant people, how he also knows that, and give him the opportunity to explain himself (I don't expect him to, but the opportunity needs to be given - ocassionally he surprises me and tells me, for example, that "I not want Becca a make that noise", which clarifies his motivation at least). If he wanted to apologize he could, and I would ask him to, but I wouldn't force it.

It is also possible for the sensitive child to simply not realize what they are doing. My children and I were visiting friends this weekend, and while we were on the floor playing chase-and-tickle type games their 3yo pushed not-too-roughly on my belly (30wks pg and large), and all I said was "ooh, you need to be careful, there's a baby in there, remember?" and he looked so sorrowful I felt bad about even saying that much (he was obviously holding back tears even after I reassured him that he hadn't hurt either myself or the baby). So I suppose that the reaction would depend on the sensitivity/awareness level of the child, as well.

[Dar]

If I were the demo lady, after seeing that the mother wasn't going to take action, I would address the kid and say something like, "Hitting me is not okay. This is my body and you may not hit it." or something similar.

If I were the mother, I would say something similar, apologize to the woman, and prevent it from happening again, physically if necessary. After we left the area, I would bring the subject up again, ask what was going on, and discuss what better solutions might have been and what we needed to do now. If this was a one-two year old, I'd skip the followup, or else do it mentally by myself, trying to figure out what had caused the hitting, but a 4-5 yr old can generally handle that sort of discussion and problem-solving.

Dar

[UnschoolnMa]

Originally Posted by Dar

If I were the mother, I would say something similar, apologize to the woman, and prevent it from happening again, physically if necessary. After we left the area, I would bring the subject up again, ask what was going on, and discuss what better solutions might have been and what we needed to do now. If this was a one-two year old, I'd skip the followup, or else do it mentally by myself, trying to figure out what had caused the hitting, but a 4-5 yr old can generally handle that sort of discussion and problem-solving.

Dar

I agree with this. The goal would be to get to the bottom of what this child was feeling, and to help him express himself without the hitting. I quite possibly fall into the "permissive parenting" camp (not sure due to different definitions I've heard of that term) because we do not punish. We guide, talk, model the behavior we want to see, talk more, and laugh an awful lot but we never punish.

[Butter]

UnchoolnMa, what you describe doesn't sound like permissive parenting. You are disciplining in every true sense of the word (discipline is different from punishment IMO). Permissive parents let the kids do whatever and wave away any negative behavior saying such things as they are "expressing themselves." I find many permissive parents feel the kids will eventually learn how to behave properly. This might work with some kids, but how can you learn to behave properly if you are not guided and taught? Permissive parenting is often used interchangeably with attachment parenting (and one reason I think some people can be anti-AP). This is not the case as most AP parents do not let their kids run all over them and control the household.

Gentle discipline is not synonomous with permissive parenting. In GD the goal is to gently, non-violently teach the child. In PP there is generally no teaching involved, just permission to do whatever.

[polka hop]

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[Heavenly]

Well I would have been horrified and I would have apologized to the woman and made my son apologize. I would then leave the store and go home at which point my son would be put in his room. When one of our children hits they are put in their room with the message that if you are going to assault someone then you need to go away until you calm down and we are not going to let you be around us if you are hitting. I feel my children need to learn that if you hit or treat people badly they won't want to be around you.

[SmilesALot]

On reading Heavenly's post, i had this question. Leaving the store was already sending a message to your child about the seriousness of the situation and what is the need to put him in his room when he is not hurting any one around? I can understand that a mother would be enraged that her son hit a stranger out of the blue but i feel putting them in their room after you are far away from the place that the scenario happened is just to satisfy oneself(i,e the mother) that they are taking some severe action for the hitting behavior!

Am i making sense?

Peace & Love!

[Butter]

I agree with you. I wouldn't send the child to their room. I've never found sending to their room to do any good as a punishment since they have some fun toys in there and besides it's usually where they go when it is quiet time. I do utilize sending them to their room to calm down when they really need to be removed from the situation and are worked up to such a state that they cannot listen to anything at that point in time. In this situation, however, leaving the store allows calming to the point that a discussion can take place.

In reference to leaving the store... this happened at SamsClub. Most people there have a cart with stuff in it (possibly perishable foods). Do you leave straight away or do you take the time to empty your cart? Honestly no situation has ever arisen where I was faced with that having to happen. I once did see, however, a woman at the grocery store with a child absolutely having a meltdown simply leave her cart and head out. The employees were less than thrilled as they watched this happen and one commented on having to put away the groceries "again." Just wondering what you do/would do?

[UnschoolnMa]

Thanks for the thoughts on permissive parenting vs GD etc (Butter and Riotkrrn ) I love having people to discuss this stuff with! I know people IRL who think that we are permissive parents, and that we do not guide our children properly. (Though the term "properly" must have tons of definitions in this case, and therefore depends on who's defintion we are coming from)

For example my MIL stayed with us for a time. My daughter and hubby were joking around and my daughter called dh an "ass". My mother in law said that she (my dd) needed to be punished for talking to an adult that way. (she knows we don't punish but she presses on ...lol) We told her that we don't think an adult is automatically entitled to any more respect than a child is just because they are older. We also told her that she was just being silly. Another time my son said that he didn't like a certain kind of music because he thought it was boring and "lame" (his word). My mother in law took that as him being rude because she likes that music. I said he was free to express himself. These miight not be very good examples, but it's all that comes to mind right at the moment.

I just mean to say that we think most of the things our kids do is totally acceptable, but other parents find even the idea of their kids doing the same stuff horrifying. They think we are permissive. Also, no one really "controls" our household. It's really more of a group effort, but people hear that our kids can eat, watch, and -with the exception of safety related stuff -do whatever they want and think we are permissive. Interesting food for thought.

[CaraHere]

Leaving the Store because of Tantrums

I think my kids are older than yours but they each went through the stage of a tantrum in a store (no one hit a stranger though - my goodness!).

I had zero tolerance for a tantrum in the store. The rules were explained before we entered the store. I also made sure they knew the things that I would not buy (the junk candy at the till for example), and I gave them the "job" of picking out something they could have (a healthy snack or drink). This gave them something to look forward to while we were shopping. If they started a tantrum while we were shopping, we would leave immediately.

But this raised the problem with the shopping cart - especially when the oldest pointed out the there was ice cream that was going to melt. So, if the cart had no perishables in it, I abandoned it. And the one time it did, I carried a screaming kid in one arm, returned the icecream to the freezer and then abandoned the rest of the cart. This only happened three times (with different kids). The looks on their faces when they realized mom meant what she said and would stop shopping was priceless.

Of course I would have to go shopping later in the evening when my husband got home from work, but they never knew that.

And no, there was no punishment when we got to the car. They had already stopped screaming when they hit the fresh air. I simply loaded up the kids and went home. They knew what they had done wrong. The eery silence spoke volumes. Today, my kids are awesome shoppers. And they still know what I refuse to buy, and they still get to pick out their choice of what I do buy.

[EnviroBecca]

There's a concept from developmental psychology that I think is very helpful for understanding this "GD vs. permissive parenting" thing: Picture a 2x2 grid (4 squares). On one side, a parent can be Firm or Lenient. On the other side, a parent can be Warm or Cold.
A parent who is Firm and Warm is called an Authoritative Parent. This is a parent who is comfortable with being in charge but guides her child's behavior using gentle, respectful techniques.
A parent who is Firm and Cold is called a Controlling Parent. This is a parent who controls the child's behavior via intimidation or force and feels no need to explain her decisions to the child.
A parent who is Lenient and Warm is called a Permissive Parent. This is a parent who accepts anything a child does and feels that guiding his behavior would be cruel.
A parent who is Lenient and Cold is called a Neglectful Parent. This is a parent who takes no interest in the child and feels that guiding his behavior is a waste of time.

There are some AP parents who are Permissive, but most are Authoritative. Of course, a lot of parents fall somewhere between two of the squares.

T UnschoolnMa wrote:

We told her that we don't think an adult is automatically entitled to any more respect than a child is just because they are older. We also told her that she was just being silly. Another time my son said that he didn't like a certain kind of music because he thought it was boring and "lame" (his word). My mother in law took that as him being rude because she likes that music. I said he was free to express himself.

I think you are being disrespectful of MIL's feelings. It's fine to tell her that you don't believe adults deserve special respect (does that mean it is okay for people to call your kids names?) or that your husband didn't mind being called an ass, but to tell her she's "just being silly" is to say she has no right to feel disrespected if someone calls HER an ass. Your son is entitled to his opinions on music, but when he expresses them in a way that hurts someone's feelings, he should apologize.

[UnschoolnMa]

Envirobecca wrote:
I think you are being disrespectful of MIL's feelings. It's fine to tell her that you don't believe adults deserve special respect (does that mean it is okay for people to call your kids names?) or that your husband didn't mind being called an ass, but to tell her she's "just being silly" is to say she has no right to feel disrespected if someone calls HER an ass. Your son is entitled to his opinions on music, but when he expresses them in a way that hurts someone's feelings, he should apologize.
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Oops I think I should have been more clear somewhere in there. We didn't tell MIL that *she* was being silly. We meant that when our daughter called hubby an ass that *our daughter* was being silly to him. In a joking around way we don't think name calling is bad, so yes people can call my kids names. My son and I call each other all sorts of made up stuff. It's not serious. We have encouraged the kids to handle conflict/anger etc openly and honestly, even if that person is an adult. We have also told them that name calling really doesn't do much good when handling those things. They have never swore at someone in anger

With the music thing, my son said nothing to MIL to hurt her feelings. He said that he doesn't care for that style of music because it is boring and lame. He did not say that *she* was boring and lame. She thought that because it was her fave style of music that the kids should like it too (this came from son putting headphones on to listen to his preferred style as opposed to hers) and if they didn't they shouldn't have said they didn't like it. (Never mind that she had just finished telling DS all about why the music he likes is awful, etc) She just doesn't like that we think the kids have the same right to speak their mind (they've done so well within the limits of what I find respectful) the same way adults can. She thinks we need to control their environment and speech more, and I totally disagree. I hope I cleared that up a little bit

[StephandOwen]

Originally Posted by CaraHere

They knew what they had done wrong. The eery silence spoke volumes.

Oh this is so true! I got that eery silence from my mom a few times and I knew right then and there to shut my mouth and not do what I'd done to get that! LOL! Years later I still remember that.

I hope DS doesn't throw tantrums in the store (I can dream, right?) but if he does I plan on doing exactly what you did. Abandon cart, pack him up, and leave. Of course, I would probably have to return at some point- being a single mom doesn't present many shopping alone oppourtunities

To the OP- DS is only 1 so I can't say for sure what I would do but I imagine I would apologize to the woman, ask if there is anything she needs/anything I can do for her. When I am done with her I would take DS out to the car and talk to him about it, in a nonaccusing way, to figure out why he did that. I would then drive home.