TCS Discussion Threads - Archived - Page 9

[k'smami]

Children in society

This paragraph comes from Without Boundaries from Jan Fortune Wood. Although larcy and netty and discovermama touched upon some of these thoughts, I like how this paragraph puts it together.

We live in a society where children are routinely deprived of the common rights of humanity, where they often cannot choose what to eat or wear, whom they associate with, when they can sleep, what they can learn or even what they can enjoy as leisure. Love is neither compensation nor justification for such total lack of autonomy. The suffering that arises is not character building or a preparation for living in the real world, but rather damages the ability to problem solve creatively and consider solutions rationally. It perpetuates an acceptance of suffering and an inhability to follow one's preferences into adulthood. Children whose autonomy is respected do not expect to never have to solve problems or that life will be handed to them on a plate or that they will never have to work hard at realising thier preferences. Autonomous children know that problem solving is a feature of real life and growth, that risk is inevitable and that change and criticism and new solutions are always going to be needed. What they do not do is conflate problems with suffering or effort with sacrifice. When we live in an ethos of consent, creativity and rationality, boundaries become simply irrelevant. (page 84)

I also want to quote this sentence on page 85:

The prisons are not full of TCS children. Whilst TCS is not primairly concerned with outcome-based parenting, I think we can confidently predict that, unless TCS children are living under unjust and illiberal laws, this situation is likely to continue.

[Heavenly]

I do not have the time to respond to all of this right now but I wanted to say Larsy you are REALLY starting to irritate me with your attitude. You are infering that because I do not practice TCS I am not gentle towards my son (mama will have your hide???). I do not want to start a fight so listen and listen carefully. I do not believe in spanking, yelling, raising my voice. I always try and direct my son in positive ways and do things to try and make him comfortable (not going out when he's tired, etc.). But I do not agree with TCS, okay? I don't think that a parent is being evil or wrong to tell their child when to go to bed, or to take a bath, or wear a jacket. I'm pretty my sure my son will grow up just fine with all my coercion. :

[k'smami]

Dear Heavenly,

I think this is why larsy stressed when she began this thread that people speak hypthotically about children and parents. It is my opinion, and please larsy correct me if I'm wrong, that larsy was speaking about people in general and used an extreme example to illustrate. I also don't believe I've heard anyone here use the word evil.

It is your right to not agree with TCS. Please remember that you offered to debate it by posting on this thread and saying so.

[Ms. Mom]

Heavenly - Your feeling frustrated because the tcs theory dosn't feel right to you and your feeling judged. I can understand your feelings and am sorry that your feeling under attack.

It seems a lot of our members are curious about tcs and do want to discuss it in this forum. This is the logical place to so and I'm glad to see this thread so that everyone interested can come here and learn.

Sometimes the tcs theories do seem a bit much for many members, I can certainly understand that. Before the boards went down there were a few times things got heated. What worked was to have a thread where people could come and discuss the theory and others could skip by.

EVERYONE is welcome on the Mothering Boards and I appreciate the diverse views that are discussed here.

We all beleive in treating children with gentleness, love and respect. Let's do the same here to each other.

If anyone would like to discuss this further please feel free to pm me or email me [e-mail] any time. I always welcome your views.

Edited to say; Welcome back Netty - I wondered where you had gone.

[geomom]

I am not formally into TCS. I think that they may have chosen an unfortunate name for the movement since it has a tendancy to put people off. The immediate reaction I usually see when someone brings it up is along the lines of 'of course, I take my children seriously. But that doesn't mean my toddler knows what is best.'

I have been slowly moving toward consensus as the means of interacting with my child. My attempts at coersion were short lived and just didn't seem like a productive endevour. I am not above some positive reinforcement now and then. But when dd and I are not in agreement from the get go, I start working toward a consensus and not just on getting my way.

I too faced hysterical cries at the sight of the snow suit. We found this really perplexing since she has worn it frequently without protest in the past. We dressed her in many layers for a week while we figured out what it was about the snow suit that offended her sensibilities. It turned out that the collar was bothering her. We were able to alter the collar and explain what we did so that the snow suit is once again acceptable to her.

[Linda in Arizona]

Re: I think so...

Some of the TCS posts I have found to be argumentative, aggressive and sometimes plain rude

and condescending and judgmental. As a mom here who posts about real things with my kids and how I handle them, I'm sick of having my actions judged by people who believe there is one right way.

There are lots of right ways!

I think children would rather we discuss their lives than make some bizarre error in judgement that could cause them some sort of problem later..... [/B]

agreed. I think if I loudly anouced at a Christmas party that one of my children wears pullups at night, it would be an invasion of her privacy. To talk about something quite personally here with other moms who might have experience or tips, can only help. I perfer to raise my kids will all the information and insight I can get. That takes being open and honest. Since my kids are always with me, talking about real problems on-line is a way that I can find other options without invading their privacy.

[Linda in Arizona]

Originally posted by larsy
Sorry to keep repeating meyself, but...

TCS is a philosophy about non-coercive interaction between *parent* and *child*, not between non-related adults.

so it is OK if someone else coerces your child, you coerce someone else's child, you coerce your spouse, etc?????

To me, respecting other people's points of view and feelings are very important, be it my children, other adults, etc. I think we should always respect others' right to feel differently than we do, work toward finding creative solutions to differences, and respecting someone's right to come to a different conclusion when no agreement is reached.

[k'smami]

Originally posted by Linda in Arizona



so it is OK if someone else coerces your child, you coerce someone else's child, you coerce your spouse, etc?????

To me, respecting other people's points of view and feelings are very important, be it my children, other adults, etc. I think we should always respect others' right to feel differently than we do, work toward finding creative solutions to differences, and respecting someone's right to come to a different conclusion when no agreement is reached.

I understood what larsy meant as, there is nothing damaging about not helping strangers get what they want. You can agree to disagree or you can stop associating with them. This is not the case with children. With children and their parents, agreeing to disagree happens very rarely unless you're talking about philosophical ideals. You can't stop associating with your children. You must deal with them daily and this initmate relationship can't be compared with any associations you have with strangers.

[Ms. Mom]

Thanks geomom. Your right about the name. I think it puts peoples defenses up.

I like the snowsuit story. Sometimes a little one needs some time to be able to properly communicate why they don't want to do something. You gave her the time to do so and she must feel so releived that you understand.

[larsy]

So, it's not possible to take one's children more seriously than before? To recognize ways in which one isn't taking them as seriously as one would like to? Sure, everyone's first thought is 'I take my children seriously'. What's the next thought? 'I'm so glad to find others who do too, maybe I can get some more information so that I can do better'? Getting defensive might be a clue, good information, that entrenched theories are flaring.

Human beings are fallible. No matter how seriously we take other people and ourselves, there are still places where we can learn and change and do better. Living takes effort, no matter how one lives. Spending that energy on relating to loved ones in tired patterns that do not support good relationships, that undermine trust and love and instead produce bad feelings and stunt learning... well, is that energy well-spent? If there are better ways to direct energy, to improve relationships and lives, wouldn't you want to know about it? Even if it involves some effort and pain and prodding one's tender spots, to hear and understand and implement it in one's own life?

[Netty]

Originally posted by geomom
I am not formally into TCS. I think that they may have chosen an unfortunate name for the movement since it has a tendancy to put people off. The immediate reaction I usually see when someone brings it up is along the lines of 'of course, I take my children seriously. But that doesn't mean my toddler knows what is best.'

Yes, that is the reaction we usually get :-) But when you think about it, "Taking Children Seriously" is a very fitting name. Yes, most parents think they *do* take their children seriously, but when it comes down to it, they often don't. And that is what the movement is trying to point out. Children are so often treated as second--or even third--rate people. What the TCS movement is trying to change is this very attitude to children. A child who wants to drink bleach, for example, should be taken seriously. No, that doesn't mean that the parent should give the child bleach to drink, but should look at ways of satisfying the child's very *rational* desire. Because we assume that the child's desre is rational, we first realize that the desire is *not* to poison hirself. From there, we try to determine how to satisfy that desire. The child wants a bottle to explore? The child is thirsty? The child wants attention? And so on. We do not simply snatch the bleach away and say "No! Danger!" and leave it at that. Of course we help the child understand danger. But we take their desires seriously at the same time. Many anti-tcs parents will say something like, "I *do* take my children seriously" and then add a "but" immediately after. Isn't that rather telling? ;-) Taking someone seriously does not mean doing whatever they want. It means that we consider their desires on par with our own.

BTW, thanks for the welcome back, Mrs Mom!...I've been frantically busy lately, but I hope I can help out here more in the next while :-)

Netty

[discovermoma]

Heavenly

I'm not picking on you, your just the only one right now posting why you do not believe in TCS and what you think is wrong with TCS. I'm arguing my opinion is all.

You said you don't spank. How do you feel when you see someone spanking their child? Do you think to yourself that this parent is doing wrong to the child and that there are better ways to discipline than by hitting?

That's how I feel when I read in your post that you make your child do something that they don't want to do. I think there is a better way of doing it and I want to share this way with you.

For example making a child take a bath. TCS way does not mean that you should have a dirty child. It means (to me) that I should find out why the child doesn't want to take a bath. Is the water temperature too cold or hot, are they bored with the bath toys and I should rotate toys to keep her interested, does she have diaper rash and the water/soap is causing it to burn, am I splashing water in her face which she doesn't like, is the big tub too scary, was she doing something that interested her when I told her it was bath time...?

Same thing for wearing a coat. I don't think any child likes to be cold. Maybe there is something about the coat that is causing problems. Is the zipper pinching or scratching, does a snowsuit limit mobility...and so on.

I try to put myself in my dd's shoes to find out what it is about something that she is resisting. Power struggles with a child is a lose/lose situation, but finding a common preference is a win/win situation. It makes the days I spend with my dd so much better. It has greatly enhanced my marriage. It has allowed me to become more open minded. TCS doesn't make my life hard, it makes it more enjoyable.

[bigcats]

I have two questions regarding TCS. The first:

When I checked out the website, there was a list that said something like "If you believe any of these statements, you probably will not find the TCS list supportive" and then one of the statements was about children learning from natural consequences. What's coercive about natural consequences? When a child throws a treasured toy out a second story window, and the toy breaks on the sidewalk below (after being given information by the parent that this may happen)... is this something the child cannot, or should not, learn from? I'm wondering if maybe the website authors were referring to "logical consequences" - those that are parent-arranged, such as "If you throw your food at the dinner table, you are done with dinner and you need to leave the table".

Secondly, can TCS be used with children who seem *not* to want to avoid hurting themselves? I work with kids with emotional disorders stemming frmo abuse and neglect, and it seems to me that the assumption the kids do not want to cause harm to themselves is a false one. These kids will intentionally do things they know will be painful or harmful to themselves (putting sand in their eyes, glass in their mouths, walking over to a child who is tantrumming and assaultive, drinking Lysol, etc). It's not just that the child does not have information that these things are harmful... the child does them again and again, after having experienced the painful sensations.

Thanks for your help in clarifying these issues.

[geomom]

To all you TCS folks, I do understand that TCS wants children to given basic human respect and understanding. I just wanted to point out that even those who agree with the philosophical underpinnings of TCS can be put off by the language.

I do tend to disagree that humans are primarily rational. I see emotional responses as being primary and rational thought as secondary. That doesn't mean that I think rational thought is inferior. But I see emotional repsonses as being the basic means by which humanity deals with experiences. For me, rational thought is a means of interpretting and using emotional responses. I also do not see my toddler's thought processes as being rational. Much of what she communicates at this point is magical thinking and fantasy. But these are her means of dealing with the world and just as valid as her mother's love of rationl thought.

[fire]

I was raised with some "good" and bad" (used loosely) parenting skills and also instincts. I found it very easy to intuitively nurture my newborn. However it, for me has become increasingly more difficult, complicated. Because we are all different and each child individual I see that guidelines aren't always relevant but it is not necessary to totaly devalue them. Sometimes I get great help from theories and 'psycology' inspired parenting systems. I think that most of the social sciences are very altruistic; handy in the way that they look at a child growing with an objective point of view, detached from the deep emotions involved with raising your own family. I think this advise is very important and it is mostlikely coming from a place of love for all children. Also for the same reason, I can see how we could rightly distrust the full accuracy of some band box certainty from one who is not directly intimately connected with our loved ones.

[MamaLeah]

A Positive Note

I have been mulling over many points of view for the last several months. As many others, the world of being a parent is new to me, and I don't always know what to do/what is best/what makes sense/what will ultimately be the best path. I have posted very few questions and no opinions about TCS because I hadn't had time to really openly explore the ideas. They were very new to me. I have felt defensive and angry at times, but tried to take the time to let my emotions teach me something. I feel like the TCSers take a lot of heat, but I have never seen any posts from a pro-TCS person that in my view was not respectful, thoughtful and honest.

I realized today that I am a better parent because of the ideas I have been exposed to here. It is not easy to open yourself up to a new way of thinking about the world, and I have struggled with it. But because of TCS ideas, I trust my daughter more, I hear her more accurately, I am more calm and patient when she has trouble expressing her needs or wants. These are huge things. Especially the trust. I mean trust is the deepest sense of the word. And I truly believe that she trusts me more, is more able to understand my needs and is more patient with me. I don't think I am ready to label myself a certain way. I'm still learning so much. But I wanted to let those of you who have spent so much time trying to explain these ideas, that I for one am grateful and I think you have improved the quality of my and my daughter's lives. Thank you.

Leah

[k'smami]

re: children hurting themselves

Originally posted by bigcats
I work with kids with emotional disorders stemming frmo abuse and neglect, and it seems to me that the assumption the kids do not want to cause harm to themselves is a false one. These kids will intentionally do things they know will be painful or harmful to themselves (putting sand in their eyes, glass in their mouths, walking over to a child who is tantrumming and assaultive, drinking Lysol, etc). It's not just that the child does not have information that these things are harmful... the child does them again and again, after having experienced the painful sensations.

This illustrates how coercion damages thinking and inhibits learning. These children were abused and neglected i.e. expericenced very damaging instances of coercion. I don't think these children are a good example about how children think so cases like these should not be used against the majority of children to say that they aren't rational (not implying that you're saying this, I'm just throwing it out there). This is a very interesting case, I don't know how one would handle these behaviors using TCS. I'll think about it though.

There are a couple of articles on the TCS website that discuss Natural Consequences. According to TCS, natural consequences should be avoided because if parents were able to stop the consequence from happening and didn't then they are being coercive because they are trying to teach their child a "lesson" about whatever the action the child did that the parent disagreed with.

For instance imagine a 6 year old left a precious, delicate toy on the floor. The parent sees it there and thinks that if it stays there it might get broken by someone passing by who may trip on it. Instead of picking it up and giving the child a warning about what happens when you leave delicate things on the floor, the parent decides that this is a Natural Consequence of leaving the toy on the floor (lets say that this is not the first time the child leaves something delicate on the floor) and as such does not remove the toy and someone trips and breaks it. This is coercive because the parent is imposing their will on the child's property. "That toy deserves to get broken because it was left on the floor." Would the parent do that if a guest was the one who left something on the floor? Would the parent say, "That deserves to get broken because so and so left it where it's not supposed to be"? IME the parent would pick the item up to ensure its safety. Why would the parent do this with a guest but not their beloved child?

[Irishmommy]

I would just like to say that I'm with Heavenly on this one. I have a friend who parents like that (TCS, but I don't think she gives it a name), and her child is the biggest brat going. Everything is always what suits her child, no matter how it hurts/inconveniences/annoys other people. For example, at a restaurant, kid wants to run around, kid gets to run around - even with waitstaff carrying trays, coffee pots, etc., and who would be blamed if someone tripped over the kid and the kid was hurt? The parents sure wouldn't be thinking "oh, maybe my kid shouldn't do that"! Or, kid is really tired (obvious to everyone except mom, kid's not particulary verbal), mom keeps child up because child says no to bed. Which is better for kid - following what he says verbally, or what he says body language? This particular kid (3 years old) thinks that everyone on earth should bow to her, and treats everyone like they are only here to serve her (or take her seriously!). She is going to be one miserable kid when she hits school and all of a sudden isn't the centre of the universe, and I don't think her parents have done her any favours.

[larsy]

Irishmommie, what you describe is not TCS.

[Linda in Arizona]

Re: Heavenly

Originally posted by discovermoma
You said you don't spank. How do you feel when you see someone spanking their child? Do you think to yourself that this parent is doing wrong to the child and that there are better ways to discipline than by hitting?

That's how I feel when I read in your post that you make your child do something that they don't want to do. I think there is a better way of doing it and I want to share this way with you.

My, how very condescending of you! This is a gentle discipline board, not a TCS/NCP soapbox. I feel that there needs to be respect for all parents praticing (or trying to practice) positive discipline, even if that takes a different turn that it does in my home.

I attended a conference section on TCS. I've read Without Boundaries. I practiced NCP for a while. Ultimately, I decided it was not the right path for my family. I still work very hard to find common preferences with my children, but if we can't it doesn't mean that they simply get their way.

This attititude that "there is a better way of doing it and I want to share this way with you" is getting old. Just because there is a better way for your family, doesn't mean that it is the one right way for all families.