TCS Discussion Threads - Archived - Page 5

[pie]

First, jbcmom, I love what you said about children being the center of the universe. My sil's son beats and bites the holy hell out of my son, who is a year younger than her son's 3.5. Anyway, she really doesn't tell him not to hurt other kids. She just goes, oh baby, that's not nice. I am a lot stronger in my objections to my son being violent with other kids, although he hits me when he wants me to stop singing or talking and I'm a big softie about that. As a result, ds really is quite gentle, especially to samller children. Anyway, one day I was tellimg my sil that some people think that their children are more vital to the world than anyone else's and that only your world revolves around your child and you can't expect your neighbor's to. She said,"Oh, I disagree. My baby is the most important thing in the world and the whole world does revolve around him." I was like,"Oh, to you?" And she, in all seriousness, said,"No. I firmly believe he is more importamt than everyone. I don't need to worry about anyone else." I thought that was a really selfish and dangerous attitude.

Larsy, I am beginning to get the concept of non-coersion, however I find the extreme to which you believe in it a little impractical. That is not a dig at you, I am just letting you know how far my understanding of your views goes. I will reiterate that I want to find a way not to force Jackson to do things, but sometimes we have somewhere to go and he has a poopy diaper and no other clothes on and I have to get him dressed. Period. He is not quite up to understanding the reason, and I wish I could just let him run totally wild, and I do AMAP. However, sometimes he, for example, picked up a big dog turd and then turns around and wants another cracker. Guess what? I HAVE to wash his hands. I have no idea how you practically handle situations where it is impossible to cater more to your child's autonomy than to the reality of the situation. How do I change his clothes or wash his hands without stepping on his toes? Because as an adult, there will eventually be situations requiring compromise and I don't want him to remember me overpowering him and thus be afraid of or resentful toward things that life simply requires. I deeply appreciate anyone and everyone's input because I think the situation is bigger than it looks. I mean, a friend said she thinks he is oppositional! To me that is a handy pop psychology catch all term, but he does not like to do anything I need him to do. He is only 2.5, and that comes w the territory but I want to smooth out the situation as it is serious to us both.

[Lucy]

jbcjmom, I wasn't advocating what you were talking abt at all. I also agree with you that things like handwashing aren't issues up for discussion. When I said dd knew intellectually, what I meant was that we spent a while learning abt germs while studying Madeline. We coated our hands in vaseline, and sprinkled pepper on them, and then tried to wash it all off. It was hard to get off, which led to a discussion abt how we must wash hands properly ect. , germs like to stick to us.

Anyway, Larcy when I said its her way or the highway st, I was commisserating with mamapie. And no, its not my way or the highway in this household. Some issues are health and safety related. I should have added, we were fixing food at the time, hands needed to be washed. Shoes at a playground are necessary. Atleast where I live, there may be glass or st . There are things we do to keep our kids safe. Abt the teeth, I think it would be more traumatic for her to undergo a dental procedure than to simply brush her teeth once or twice a day with pretty pink toothpaste and a musical toothbrush!

I am going to bow out here, bc I want this thread to be helpful for mampie, I don't want to sidetrack it. I just wanted to respond.

[pie]

Hey, Lucy, come back! You aren't sidetracking a thing. I learn best when I hear lots of different viewpoints and I liked what you said.

[Lucy]

Thanks mamapie, you're so sweet! I was afraid I was distracting from your original ?.

[grisletine]

without boundaries

hello im new to this forum and find that tcs and all its implications fall directly in line with my present beliefs. where can i get this book? amazon doesnt even have it!

[Jish]

Lucy, I new you were going to take that too personally. None of my post other than the use of the word "intellectually" was directed at you. I really liked your idea of vaseline and pepper. If I ever run into hand washing issues with my second son, I'm going to try that.

Here is my problem with this whole TCS theory of child rearing. I am all for a gentle approach to discipline (meaning: to teach, not to punish) and practice this with my sons. I offer choices and try to give explanations for my decisions and actions as best I can considering their age. From what I can see, TCS fails to take into consideration that children are not simply small adults. Their bodies are smaller, their brains are different, they lack the experience and skills that we as adults have gained (yes, by experience, I realize that), but when we became parents our job became to protect, nurture, love, teach , guide and discipline our children. I can not imagine what my life had been like if I'd had basically no rules growing up, if I had been the one to make all my decisions as a toddler. Our children look to us for guidance and wisdom. My son hates to wear his coat, but where we live it becomes a necessity. I would be negligent if I let him run around outside in shorts, a tee shirt and no shoes as our neighbors let their boys (ages 6 and 8) do. These boys have been raised with somewhat of the TCS attitude and they have turned into total brats. Everyone in the neighbor groans when they come outside. The parents are now trying to regain control of their household and are paying a heavy price for their earlier actions.

Anyone who has taken a Psych 101 class knows that children are different than adults. They don't think the same, they don't have the same ability to reason, and they are unable to see things from another's perspective. I worry about these kids who have been the center of the universe when the join the real world whether it be in school, or in the working world. The rest of the world has rules that must be abided by, there is often no room for compromise. I may be running late, but I still have to stop for that red light because if I run it my actions impact others. The same goes for the child who doesn't want to wash his hands after he goes to the bathroom, I use this again for an example. Children carry germs and hand washing not only protects them, but those around them, not just from feces or urine, but from the saliva, snot, etc that they are carrying. After they touch that door handle they leave their germs for every person who follows. This means the frail 85 year old woman, and the two year old with a heart condition. I use this example because it is personal. My God daughter has a heart condition and a couple of other small problems and germs and common illnesses are an issue for them. How are you going to teach a child to love and respect others when, to them, they are the only person in the world who matters?

Am I the only one with a time out chair in my house? When my oldest son hits my younger son, there is no discussion. That is wrong and there are consequences to his action. It is up to me to teach him that it is wrong to hit, not for him to eventually figure out on his own. If your child bites another child on the playground, what are the consequences? Do you discuss it? No three year old on the planet is going to say "yeah, Mom, you were right. I shouldn't have bitten that child, even though he took the shovel I was playing with. It was wrong. I'll apologize and never do it again." Children act on impulse, not logic. All the child is thinking is "That was mine and he took it!" Children react like that because they aren't developed enough, and don't have the faculties to deal with the world as adults do.

Is anyone else with me in thinking that it is our responsibility to raise our children with love, respect and RULES???

Beth

[Tigerchild]

I am of two minds about this...

On the one hand, I firmly believe in giving a child as much autonomy as is appropriate, since it would drive me absolutely crazy if I had to make ALL the decisions for anyone all the time! Yuck!

But on the other, I also believe it's valuable for children to learn very early on that we all have to make concessions sometimes. I don't know about the rest of you, but I don't live in a society where my kids will be able to do whatever they want whenever they want in a safe manner. And there are certain pet peeves of mine (which I fully recognize as being 'my problem') that I do not tolerate, in order to protect and preserve *my* integrity.

This being the case, IMO there are just going to be certain times that allowing the child to lead the way is not going to be possible. I think that for most people, this tends to revolve around health and safety issues--but that many of us have certain things that WE need as well, that are less negotiable than others.

For example, maybe Mamapie, for her own mental health and sanity, really NEEDS to get out of the house from time to time. I think it would be a good idea to plan this outing around something her son enjoys, plan for a couple hours preparation time, and offer him as many choices as possible. (Would you like to wear the red shirt, or the blue shirt? Would you like to wear your sneakers or your boots? Should we put cheese or peanut butter crackers in our snack pack? Should we use our sling, or the stroller?) But occasionally allowing him a tantrum and assisting him with getting dressed is not, IMO, tantamount to child abuse. And if mom needs to get out, sometimes she should be allowed to, try to make things as painless as possible, and if the child has a history of protesting during the process but being fine afterwards, then I don't think she should feel bad about meeting her needs occasionally as well. Maybe I'm more callous than some of you, but to be honest, *temper* tantrums don't bug me very much, especially if they're just 'blowing off steam' tantrums. Even I need to 'vent' sometimes before I have to do something I don't like.

This may seem like a topsy-turvy suggestion, but maybe you could try giving your son a bath *before* you go out, Mamapie? You could start from scratch then...at least he'd already be undressed. Does he dress himself? Sometimes that can help a lot. It might be helpful to get him some clothing that's a bit too large, since this can make it a LOT easier for him to self-dress (especially with shirts and socks). Do you think he'd be into making a ritual for going out? (ex. Bathe, Dress, Pack Snackpack, help mom pack car, go!) Is not going out if he's not cooperative a big deal for you personally, or is this just something you feel he 'should' do? I know, for practicality's sake, I tend to only press issues that I truly think are important. Going out isn't a big deal for me personally, since we have a fenced yard, and I'm perfectly content sitting in my garden. But table manners are extremely important to me, and any child that throws food at my table will soon find their plate cheerfully cleared as we continue our lunchtime conversation. Just a personality fluke, I guess.

I like the idea of TCS, and I think that by and large I follow it in most situations, but I think years of childcare have given me a more pragmatic streak than it allows. I have no regrets and will freely admit that I have bodily carried in children from the playground when our time was up because A) they were about to get run over by the horde of older kids that were going to start pouring through the playground doors at any minute, and B) I was required by law to maintain proper child to adult ratio in the class, which meant that I didn't have the luxury of continuing the conversation for as long as I would have liked. Believe it or not, after one or two times of this happening, almost all the kids started respecting that when it was time to come in, it was time to come in...and we teachers learned to respect the kids by giving them ample warning time, and involving them in a going in routine (put away ride on toys, play ring around the rosy or london bridge, and then do log rolls or somersaults down the ramp to the door. Even the kids who didn't regularly participate knew the sequence, so they weren't rudely yanked away from their games with no warning).

I take children's feelings and individuality VERY seriously, but from my perspective part of that means teaching them (again, in an age-appropriate and non-violent manner) how to take me seriously as well. Different people are going to have different tolerance levels--and this includes kids AND adults. As adults, it's our responsibility to own our levels, and to do the self-exploration necessary to know what they are and question ourselves enough to learn how to be as flexible as possible...but *also* to know when we've reached our limit, to not lie to kids that we have, and to honor that limit.

It's a lot easier to do this as a provider, I think, and I am well aware that none of those kids had their primary bond to me. But I *can* tell you that after getting to know them and loving them, the children in my toddler classes loved me too, and trusted me, and did not fear me--and knew that I was there to protect and love them in return. I don't feel that having simple, communicated expectations and enforcing them affected them negatively--in fact, my kids were often the calmest (calmer than the preschool and pre-K kids!) during fire drills and during the earthquake that we experienced, because they knew I would not ask them to do something unless I meant to enforce it, and because I intended to keep them, our equipment, their friends, or the teachers safe. We also enjoyed a relatively stress free and extremely calm classroom (which is hard to do with tods) because teachers and kids were encouraged and helped to communicate their limits and boundaries, and those limits and boundaries were expected to be honored.

Not sure if this was helpful or not, but my point is that sometimes I think that kids do need some help to get things done, and I don't think parents should be made to feel guilty or inadequate for having to sometimes enforce rules or expectations, or if negotiation comes to a stalemate. It happens in the workplace, it happens with our system of laws, it happens within relationships, and sometimes a toddler isn't going to get his/her way. To not get them used to occasionally doing something that's not completely fun or is a tiresome step in order to be able to DO something fun is crueler in the long run, at least in my opinion.

But if there are some people who can make 100% negotiation and 0% enforcement work for them, more power to you! I don't deny that there probably are people who can/will/should handle things differently than me!

Sorry for the rambling, I'm a windbag by nature, and getting ready to pop (due date next week, yay!) isn't helping. As always, your mileage may vary. ;>

[larsy]

Have you tried Amazon.co.uk ? There is a link on the TCS website www.TCS.ac, go to 'books', then to 'TCS related books', it's the first book on the list, just click the icon next to the title.

[Alexander]

www.tcs.ac/

Please avoid punctuation directly after web addresses.



a

[Alexander]

Non-coercion zone. Fight your instincts! Don't follow them.

When it comes to trusting someone, deciding what to do in times where there is no posibility that you could have prepared yourself for a situation (war?), then insticts are maybe a good idea.

But I put it to you that there are no such things as "instincts" when it comes to "dicsipline", or "bringing children up". What we see as or feel are instincts are in fact the ideas and feelings we were programmed with as children ourselves.

Much of that, (love, kindness, concern for others) are good. However. In many cases, the way we were brought up was often dreadfully erronious.

We have to learn to cut through our "insticts", "it doesn't ring true" feelings etc, and address the issues with cold hard logic.

This is often an uncomfortable experience, not for everyone, but it is also a gift of imessurable value we can give to our children.

a

[Linda in Arizona]

I disagree and here is my story of how I found my instincts:

I had a nightmarish childhood of abuse and spent much my 20's in therapy. I had my head on pretty straight when I had kids, but even though I had gotten in touch with my feelings, healed my soul, and learned to be empathetic, I had no sense of instincts when I had my first child in my early 30's. So I tried to do what was natural, even though it didn't feel natural. I breastfeed my baby, I kept her with me where ever I went, I found peaceful ways to help her to sleep. As she got bigger I made her baby food. I read about these things in books and surrounded myself with other moms following the same path. It was like walking along a dark path with a flashlight. I always had just enough like for the next step.

As my DD got older, I had more questions but my wise women friends told me to follow my instincts. I didn't have any. One wise friend told me that eventually I had to learn to hear my heart, that I needed to start listening to it. I tried. Sometimes I can hear a little. As I kept quietly listening, I could hear more.

I kept reading and researching, but reading with my heart. The book that rang the truest to my heart was the Continuum Concept. It is about how stone age indian in south america raise their kids. This book help wake up my instincts, and my heart told me it was true.

When I say I am doing something because it feels right to me, the feeling of rightness has nothing to do with my upbringing. Nothing at all.

[Alexander]

I'm sorry to hear about your childhood. Actually, I think we agree more than disagree. One of the things that you said in your post was that you read, and listened to what others had to say.

This is education, and what I argue can enlighten us as to what we can see works.

When something makes sense to someone, is it emotionally or logically?

Both very often, and possibly both are legitamate.

The emotional side can not be argued with though, and that is the weakness.

Logic allows us to admit it when we are wrong.

a

[Alexander]

Originally posted by mamapie

I have somewhere to go and he has a poopy diaper and no other clothes on and I have to get him dressed. Period. He is not quite up to understanding the reason, and I wish I could just let him run totally wild, and I do AMAP. However, sometimes he, for example, picked up a big dog turd and then turns around and wants another cracker. Guess what? I HAVE to wash his hands.

LOL

You know, I feel that many people get confused when they encounter Non-coersion ot TCS. I can't speak for TCS (I'll wait for lacy) but for practical non-coersion. . . .

It's more about the way we interact with our children, and how we set examples than letting kids do whatever they want.

I do not let my kids do anything they want.


I draw the line at health and safety, (as every caring parent should), and picking up a poo on the street is not something that young children can grasp the implications of.

(edited to add: this is not the only line either.)

As for brushing teeth, and washing hands after the bathroom, these are activities that have to be brought tho children at their own level. Making it something that they "must" do 'cos that's health and safety, is no fun at all, and our expectations of children to magically comprehend that they "must" 'cos you look"real serious" about this . . . . is a set up for failure.

Health and safety then is a good basic guide.

hope this helps.

a

[grisletine]

thank you although i had already noticed it there i was merely hoping to save some on postage and get it in the us!
have you read it then... is it a valid representation of tcs theory?

[clover]

Ok this may seem strange. I have a very small house, so what I do is sit in the middle of the living room floor with everything laid out(diaper, clothes, shoes.) Every time he passes I say"Ok, if you want togo outside we need to put on your diaper and clothes". And so I just sit there and Try to let him make the decision to come and sit with me to get dressed. It seems to work well.I he really likes the fact that he can decide. The time in which it takes him to cooperate varies. If he really really wants to go out I only have to ask once! If he doesn't come after 6 or so pass by and we are late for somewhere we have to be, I will bring him over to get dressed. He usually fusses a bit at first but then lets me dress him. Compared to the HUGE battle it usd to be to dress him this is great for us. Also sometimes I will lay his clothes on the bed, and ask him to get an article one at a time, he likes this game.

[Tigerchild]

I disagree with this too...

But it may be for mostly semantic reasons.

Logic, IMO, is just as emotionally and culturally based as anything else. And to tell you the truth, being a compassionate being is what allows people to apologize, admit they were wrong, and to be *tolerant*--mostly because we are able to get out of our own head and recognize that other people might feel a different way about a given situation. (I've seen people hide behind logic to prevent themselves from doing this.)

I also believe it is a myth that almost everyone grew up with 'erroneous' parenting--because I don't believe there IS such a thing as 'perfect' parenting. In fact, I think it is this unattainable ideal that often puts parents in a guilt/frustration/despair quandry when it comes to relating with their kids. *Anytime* I see any particular parenting or discipline method being touted as the 'Perfect and Nonerroneous Way', I become just as suspicious as I do when I hear about a drug that's supposed to cure everything with no side effects disclosed.

My parents sure as hell were not perfect. But looking down my nose at them and dismissing them and blaming them is not going to help me be a better parent. Neither is doing everything exactly the opposite. Now that I'm an adult, and have had more experience working around children, I can *see* and *understand* why many people have the reactions they do. I can empathize with them, but retain my self-control enough to think about what I might do differently. And from my personal observations, most people DO have great instincts (if a baby cries, they want to soothe. If they're sitting down to lunch with a young child, they want to make sure the food is cut down to size. Ect.)--it's the 'logic' and 'mores' placed on them by the society around them that drowns this out. (If you never FORCE your child to take responsibility, then they'll never have a chance to learn. If you always comfort your baby, they'll never learn how to do it on their own.) Both sets of assumptions have their own ways of making sense--the trick is to be open to trying new things, observing what works and doesn't for others, and to not be afraid to try something new for your family, despite the objections of those around you.

I'd submit that this takes a very important balance of instinct, emotion, maturity, and logic. And most people don't have the luxury of being long-term observers before they parent.

Mistakes will be made, and I hightly doubt that TCS or ANY other philosophy of discipline is foolproof. We're human beings and parents DO have emotions and baggage, stuff will happen. Not only that, it's in human nature to be adaptable. The culture is constantly changing, and kids and adults will need to negotiate that.

I don't think telling anyone they need to leave an essential component of themselves at the door to 'do' a particular system is useful or helpful. It might be a better way to allow people to acknowledge this, recognize it when it crops up, and later follow up as to why and if this can be eased in the future. People aren't going to follow things they have to grit their teeth through, or feel like horrible human beings if they 'slip' or think naughty thoughts.

And to be honest, I also feel that parenting promotes JUST as much growth for the parent as it does for the child. Both halves of the equation must be cared for and nutured for the best situation. Not always going to happen, but I think it's something to strive for.

I fail to see where in the TCS philosophy it says that instincts are wrong. This is probably because things like 'instinct', 'emotion', and 'logic' are not defined and they mean very different things to different people. To me, being respectful and considerate of children is very instinctive, because I know that all of us have an inner need to feel respected and cared for. There are different kinds of logic, and erroneous logic as well. And if someone were able to completely turn off their emotion, I would not want them within 10 miles of my child or any of the children I care for--that would make them extremely dangerous IMO.

Would you care to explain what you mean by 'instinct', 'emotion', and 'logic'? I'm actually quite curious...because I have a 'feeling' that our philosophies aren't that far apart, but our word choice and definitions are. It's hard to have a discussion that everyone can understand, when somewhat variable and nebulous terms are not defined. (And I'm not talking dictionary here...I'm talking about what they mean, to you.)

[larsy]

Taking Children Seriously

I will finally take (I think it was) Ms. Mom's advice and start a TCS thread.

Taking Children Seriously is a non-coercive education and parenting philosophy that was founded approximately a decade ago by Sarah Lawrence, with significant contributions to the discussion by David Deutsch and Kolya Wolf. The paper journal 'Taking Children Seriously', the internet 'TCS list', and the website www.TCS.ac are the main places where the discussion continues. The quest (as I understand it) is to come as close to the truth as possible, about these theories of non-coercive education and parenting.

A brief quote from the website:

"We believe that it is possible and desirable to bring up children entirely without coercion (i.e. without doing things to them against their will, or making them do things against their will), and that children are entitled to the same rights, respect and control over their lives as adults.

We are critical rationalists, fallibilists and libertarians. "

When first encountered, TCS is often confused with laissez faire parenting, or neglect; it is neither of those. It is not simply about not coercing. It is about creating a happy life for one's self and one's loved ones, actively living in ways that avoid coercion.

We can recognize the theories and memes that we are programmed with, that keep us believing that coercion is necessary in this case or that case, and deconstruct them in an effort to get closer to the truth about any particular subject that is giving us trouble. Discussions like those here can help tremendously, in understanding one's theories and the practicalities of living a TCS lifestyle. Lets have at it Respectfully, of course, discussing the theories and not particular children, if you please.

[larsy]

Yes, and yes.

[laelsweet]

larsy, are you proposing this thread as a space in which to hash out issues about tcs theory, or as a space in which to propose hypothetical situations to be examined from a tcs view?

[larsy]

either/or, I guess. I see these threads as a conversation, that can go down any/many avenues as it meanders. If it gets too long, we can always start another thread that can meander another way. Whatever people want to talk about is ok by me.