is cio ever ok? - Page 2

[Galatea]

The couple of times I thought I was gonna lose it if ds didn't stop crying, I ran out and got dh and told him to hold ds for awhile while I pouted. Then, after hearing him cry for a few minutes in dh's arms, I really wanted to go back to him and so I did. If he hadn't been home, I would have called a neighbor or anyone else, even the mailman, to hold ds for 3 minutes while I screamed it out myself. The only situation I don't have figured out is when it is 3 a.m. and I have to pee and ds wakes up while I'm in the bathroom. Dh is a heavy sleeper and won't hear ds crying, and I don't want to scream "Mommy's coming!" from the bathroom, so ds ends up crying for a minute or two. But I don't think he is even really awake at that point, KWIM?

I think there is a difference between using CIO consciously as a sleep training method and being an AP mama at the end of her rope. I am NOT saying that this second scenario is okay or that we should say "that is alright" if a mama says it here, but I am saying that in our zeal to make sure no one is using CIO, we are scaring/offending people who had 1 second of weakness and then regretted it. I think it is like murder with degrees - it is all killing someone, but if it was premeditated, it is worse than if you did it in the heat of the moment. So, if it happened in the heat of the moment and the woman comes here for advice/reaction/opinion and says she feels terrible and doesn't know what to do, we shouldn't say, "You are a terrible person - leave!" We should say, "We have all been there at one point and here is what I did to comfort my child while maintaining my sanity." If someone comes here and continues to espouse CIO as being okay, *then* we can flame her out of existence. If our goal is to make sure no baby CIO, then we have to have a productive dialogue about other options and not a flame war. Trolls should not be excused, though.

[heartmama]

Lilli78 you put that well.

When I have seen posts that said 'Last night was horrible. I lost it and left my baby to cry to sleep. I felt helpless and like a failure. I was afraid I would lose my mind. Help me figure out what to do different next time"...at least the one's I have seen, did not turn into a flaming locked thread.

I definitely do not think the OP is a troll or that she is here to say 'CIO is awesome! Everyone should do it!". I do think she was closer to advocating it than regretting it by her tone, and the ambiguity was reflected in the different replies she received.

[mother_sunshine]

Is CIO ever ok?

No.


And it doesn't fit with NFL values. If a child is crying, there is a reason. It is the parent's job to try to help the child with why she is crying, not ignore it. Holding her while she's crying and at the same time ignoring the true need is sending her mixed signals. It's like saying "Mama's here, but I don't care about your needs.". Another way of thinking of it is to imagine yourself in her shoes. Would you want someone to react with compassion and respect, or would you want someone to restrain you until you simply gave up. If it's simply you she needs then she wouldn't still be crying while you hold her.

Contrary to mainstream thinking, children are not second-class citizens. They are our future and should be treated with the kindness, stability and mutual respect which we wish to see in this World.

I come and go in this forum, as we have been co-sleeping for 7 years now, so I have not been following the other threads mentioned here. I do not condone any kind of rift at Mothering. I am confused by what I see here, debates over NFL versus non-NFL issues when it shouldn't even be an issue on an NFL parenting site.

[famousmockngbrd]

I don't think CIO is ever "OK". I do think sometimes it is the lesser of several evils.

I have read the other threads and I can not support MJ's course of action. However I do not think she is a "bad mother". I have read some of her other posts and she does sound like a caring AP mother, most of the time. I think her lack of sleep clouded her judgement and now that she is seeing "positive" short term results from CIO, she is thinking she did the right thing. I really hope she is thinking about what some of the gentler posts said, about long term trust issues and the damage she may be doing to her bond with her child, because I think these are things that are truly very important to her and I would hate to see this relationship suffer because of her choices in this situation.

[mountain mom]

Is CIO ever OKAY?

Not in my opinion.

There are times, as you mentioned, where logically you have to put down the baby to do something and perhaps the babe cries. Such as taking dinner out of the oven.

But that is about 10 seconds. AND I would hope you pick your babe right back up and help them understand its okay. Comfort them and reassure that all is well.

I don't think that is really what the focus is for the OP. I get the impression that you are trying to find some wiggle room where you won't find any.

My best advice to you is to surrender. Your needs for the next while are secondary. When you can get some help and take a break. Even if it is for 10 minutes.

Heck even now I ask for 1 more hour of sleep of Sundays to try and catch up from the week. DD is three and still nightwakes, but less often than when she was two or one or newborn.

You will slowly get back your sleep but it takes time if you choose to AP.

Sorry if my post seems cold I am hurrying. DD wants to go for a swim at the Y and my surf time is way over.

[philomom]

Only in rare emergencies! I only let my daughter cry it out one or two days when I felt I would shake her if she didn't stop crying. Far better to cry alone for a little while than to have a parent who is out of control come to you.

BTW, I only "lost it" this way a couple of times. I called the Parent Hotline and they were very helpful. I got some therapy and this did not happen with the subsequent children.

Good luck and hang in there!

[littlest birds]

I think CIO means whatever "it" is then the child has no option but to cry until she gives up. The child can cry about "it" until "it" goes away and the parent will not help with "it" no matter how the child cries. CIO means the parent stands their ground on the principle of winning a result NO MATTER WHAT. And I think that is never okay.

But I will give myself space by letting a child cry to some degree or denying some kind of access to me. Like I will eat my dinner w/o a toddler on my lap and said toddler may cry right there and will not get access to my lap. If my need for space is truly greater than a dc's need for total access, I will not sacrifice myself.

My 2yo is old enough to argue about bed and to cry about not getting what she wants including going to bed. I have held children in my arms, lying in bed as they wrestled and cried about bedtime. I have waited to tend to a crying child recently put to bed. I have returned many many times to promptly comfort, talk to, dance and sing for that child if not settled enough or to remove her if not sleepy enough. I will not put myself in a position in which I have to stand my ground and not give in with crying. And I think that is the devastating element of CIO.

I guess many would disagree here with my own willingness to set the type of personal boundaries with my dc that I do. There are ways I must protect my space to remain healthy and available when it is most important. I must balance my needs with the children's, not supress mine anytime they seem to conflict. Infants needs have a different kind of urgency than older children and I think I have gradually adjusted to their maturity so that I can tell when my needs win out.

I would go to the bathroom w/o the kids on my boobs, thank you very much. :nana: But I do carry my dd in there and let her sit on my lap but she can cry on the floor while I wipe my a** if she can't wait w/o crying!

[kavamamakava]

Originally Posted by deeporgarten

I think CIO means whatever "it" is then the child has no option but to cry until she gives up. The child can cry about "it" until "it" goes away and the parent will not help with "it" no matter how the child cries. CIO means the parent stands their ground on the principle of winning a result NO MATTER WHAT. And I think that is never okay.

But I will give myself space by letting a child cry to some degree or denying some kind of access to me. Like I will eat my dinner w/o a toddler on my lap and said toddler may cry right there and will not get access to my lap. If my need for space is truly greater than a dc's need for total access, I will not sacrifice myself.

My 2yo is old enough to argue about bed and to cry about not getting what she wants including going to bed. I have held children in my arms, lying in bed as they wrestled and cried about bedtime. I have waited to tend to a crying child recently put to bed. I have returned many many times to promptly comfort, talk to, dance and sing for that child if not settled enough or to remove her if not sleepy enough. I will not put myself in a position in which I have to stand my ground and not give in with crying. And I think that is the devastating element of CIO.

I guess many would disagree here with my own willingness to set the type of personal boundaries with my dc that I do. There are ways I must protect my space to remain healthy and available when it is most important. I must balance my needs with the children's, not supress mine anytime they seem to conflict. Infants needs have a different kind of urgency than older children and I think I have gradually adjusted to their maturity so that I can tell when my needs win out.

I would go to the bathroom w/o the kids on my boobs, thank you very much. :nana: But I do carry my dd in there and let her sit on my lap but she can cry on the floor while I wipe my a** if she can't wait w/o crying!

I don't disagree with your willingness to set personal boundaries with your child. In fact, I totally agree. I have eaten dinner with a toddler grabbing my legs as well. And, like you said, it's about balance. When I went to the bathroom with kids on my boobs it was balancing my need for them to be asleep and my need to use the bathroom and their need to nurse and take a nap. I don't think that sacrificing yourself to your child is a good idea because if you don't take care of yourself, you can't take care of your child(ren). But surrendering to the demands of motherhood while juggling and balancing your personal boundaries doesn't ever require or leave room for the use of CIO in my world. Does that make sense?

[littlest birds]

Yeah, I used the teasing smilie cause I was being funny (trying anyway) and I don't have anything against what you said or did. After all, my dd sits on my lap in there it's not much different

[kavamamakava]

Originally Posted by deeporgarten

Yeah, I used the teasing smilie cause I was being funny (trying anyway) and I don't have anything against what you said or did. After all, my dd sits on my lap in there it's not much different

heh. I just wanted to reiterate your point about finding balance.

[crayon]

I think first off you should read the sticky on this forum http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=179657

Now what I think, I am glad you are getting clarification on what CIO in tales. I will give you samples of times in MY life where Rainey has cried and I have not scooped her up and saved the day.

When I have to use 2 hands to get something hot in the oven and she decides that this does not fit in to her happiness at the very moment- I will tell her (yes sometimes she is crying) that I have to put this in so we can eat but then I will hold her, she just has to wait a second. I am still there and talking to her in a loving voice so she knows I am not mad.

When I have to run and grab a diaper and she has to stay upstairs with her dad because if she moves we are going to have a huge poopie mess all over- I will let her dad talk to her and try to calm her, I will yell up “Mama is comin' I got to get you a diaper” And she will have a fit and cry until I get back, but she is not alone and she is safe.

There has been 5 times in her life I can count that she has lost control and freaked out and there was nothing her father or I could do to make her calm down. NOTHING- it just took time, but we never ever left her alone, we held her and if she wanted down we let her down. Sometimes when she gets in these fits it is almost like she makes herself even madder that she works herself up even more. But we walk, we drive, we talk, we take a shower anything, and most of the time it takes 2 hours of crying for her to just calm down. The culprit??? It is always been late at night when someone has gotten in her face and freaked her out- it is like she screams GET AWAY- but then goes to the extreme and screams for hours, even showers don't help and that is her one true love.

I think it does not matter what time of the day- if you let your child cry to prove a point to them, that they cant “manipulate you” that you must prove that you are the “parent” then it is harmful not helpful and does not teach respect and love. You children need to know they can trust you to be there in their distress even if it is stressing you. They need to know you are a safe place where their feelings are valued and they are respected. It goes full circle when they in turn will value your feelings and respect you. I don't think this can be accomplished standing on the other side of a door when your child screams “Mama Mama” because they are scared and don't understand what is going on.

[wemoon]

Crayon, you sounds awesome I have to admit that I am not nearly as good as you :LOL The only times my babies cried without me attending to them was in the car. Many times I stopped on the side of the road, but there gets to be a point when one just has to get home and not stuck on the side of the road.

They are 3 and 5 now and we deal with crying much differently now than when they are babies. Crying over not getting candy or something like that I do not pay much attention to. I will acknowledge their feelings that they want this candy or whatever, but I don't freak out making sure they don't cry over it. With my babies, if they were crying I was doing something to try to make it stop. My kids have never ever puked from crying and never will. I cannot even imagine what the screams must sound like with a child crying that hard.

[moma justice]

thanks for all of the clarifacation and advice!
i actually was under the impression that any time your child is crying and you are not holding them, they are "crying it out" it being their emotions and the out being until you meet their needs.
that said, after MUCH soul searching, i am very sure that my exp in question was not cio.
i never left her side
she had spent hours, for nights, throwing fits bc she was so overtired and she was just snowballing out of control
that passion and head strong will, that is my personality and hers (and we sometimes have some clashes...help me when she becomes 16! lol!)
i gently explained to her over and over what was happening and why
and she stoped crying down to a whimper after five minutes of crying....
and it was like she was finally letting go and surrendering
to sleep.
after spending hours and nights and days fighting me over it....
and when i set her down to cry it was the "end of my rope iam scaring myself" feeling...
but before i could even let go of that freaked out feeling in me..she was pretty much asleep
and i sat there SHOCKED
and amazed
it was not like i had a plan like: you are not gettin gout till you go to sleep.
it was like she just needed her own space to let go of her energy and she was so tired and confused she did not know what to do and it was 5 AM after over a week of no sleep and i had no wehre or no one to turn to and i could not do it a second more
i wish i had not let it get to that point///
that was my mistake and i used the threat the next night of it because i was so scared of her doing it again..the night before she still had not gotten her full nights sleep
the threat part is what i regret too
i don't want to threaten into behavior
a moment of weakness for sure
and we did have a good bye ritual with the crib (i put it in the closet) and we talked about how we did not need to go in there any more because mom is going to be more patient and laina understands how important it is to sleep and sleep in the momy daddy bed.
it worked
but that 5 min scream fest was not a mistake
at that point she needed it
and so did i

it is hard when they are screaming for you and you hold them adn they are fighting to get away..
that was so confusing to me.
my dd nver shows that kind of hysteria unless she is beyond tired.
which has only happened once so far. thank god
and with the good advice i have gotten hopefully i will parent in such a away that it never happens again
but i swear...i thought that every shower that i have taken with her on the bath room floor in the bouncy crying
was me letting her cry it out
and the misunderstanding to me, was that i did want help adn advice and opinion
but i did not want anger
and my appologizes for letting my anger respond to that.
i was not thinking clearly anough to respond well (or even write my post the way i would right now)

[crayon]

I like this post much better- it seems like you have your head back- so to speak. You last few post seemed like you had nearly lost it- on that level, and I am glad to see that you have returned. I hope this does not sound mean, it is not ment to be mean at all- I send all

If I jumped on you it was mostly due to the nature that the last post were in and I do think also a few days after the fact you have calmed enough to talk about it in a way that doesnt make people freak out at you- it is kinda like if you scream fire- every one screams 911.

I am also very glad that you put the crib away and talked with her about it- that was a great thing to do- and at 14 months she may not have "gotten" it all, but it part of her trust building with you and it needed to be done.

I do think that if you had an "end of your rope" type moment and you were at the point that you were scared of what you would do, I guess then you pick the best of two bads. Better that you can learn from it than do something to physicaly hurt either of you.

Speaking of showers, do you ever let her take a shower with you? Rainey has never not taken a shower with me- unless her dad is watching her or she is alseep- but 99% of the time she is right there with me and she has her toys- when we had a bath tub I would fill the water up and she would play but now that we only have a working shower she just just plays in the mist of the shower.

Okay- it is past midnight and my baby is sitting on my lap- I must get her in bed! sweetdreams... And here is to happy babys and mamas at night!

[srmina]

So what do you do when you have a child who routinely cries for 30 minutes while you hold her in your arms while she falls asleep? Who cries through every single dinner, no matter where you put her? Who cries every single time you go to the grocery store? Who cries everytime you lay her down on the floor on her back to go to the bathroom or get a bite to eat? Who has been known to cry for 4 hours straight while you hold her, bounce her, and try absolutely everything? My dd does this every day, and although she is way better now than a few months ago (when she was either crying or sleeping), she shows no signs of letting up at 15mo. We carry her or hold her nonstop all day long and she still cries. So what do you do when the crying just never ends? I don't want to let her cry EVER, but she simply cannot be calmed or comforted a lot of the time.

I think that for some children, it is simply impossible to keep them from crying. I never intentionally let her cry when I know she can be consoled. But what other option is there but to let them cry when you are providing all their needs, giving them comfort, and holding them constantly? I guess I just want to say that sometimes no matter how good your intentions, you are not always going to be able to prevent your baby from crying it out.

[be11ydancer]

Originally Posted by srmina

So what do you do when you have a child who routinely cries for 30 minutes while you hold her in your arms while she falls asleep? Who cries through every single dinner, no matter where you put her? Who cries every single time you go to the grocery store? Who cries everytime you lay her down on the floor on her back to go to the bathroom or get a bite to eat? Who has been known to cry for 4 hours straight while you hold her, bounce her, and try absolutely everything? ........

srmina, It sounds like you have a very high needs child. I also noticed your sig and wanted to offer you . It sounds like you really have your hands full. I hope you are able to get some help during the day and that you have support. You might want to consider getting a sling. Particularly, a wrap style sling so you can wear your baby on your back comfortably and get some things done. Does your baby enjoy being outside? If I were as desperate as you sound, I would try and go outside frequently. This always calms down my kids (16 mos. and 3 yrs.). Hugs, mama!

[Calm]

My daughter cried it out in my arms for weeks until I realised she didn't want to be held to sleep. I did the reverse disservice to my child. As soon as I layed her down, she grumbled (but had stopped crying), but she quieted and with some stroking on her back, fell asleep. Not all infants want to be held to sleep, lets just clear that up. Some like to be in a more comfortable position, more fetal, on their bellies on a flat surface - like my daughter. There is no set rule, it is about listening to your OWN child. If I had listened to HER instead of following a strict rule I was insisting my child follow, I would not have tortured her (and myself) for two months.

That lesson taught me the first and most valuable of all - she is unique and has her own idea of comfort and her own space and needs. To meet these, I have to be aware. Put down the books, and watch my child: listen to HER.

[wemoon]

I agree with what Calm said, your post sounds like you are at a much better place. I also second what she said about showers, except with my family it was baths. My DD and my DS took baths with me until my son was about 2, and now they will still come into the bathroom just to be with me when I take a bath. They pull up a little stool and say *Lets talk about something* :LOL I do bring my kids into the shower with me too as it is just so much easier. And if you child needs to be held in the shower, there is quite a variety of *water slings* out there now, that you can use while showering or swimming. They are made of sports jersey mesh material or some are made of solarveil which provides sun protection, and they dry quickly, like a swimsuit. I had never heard of it with my kids, but if I ever have another one I will use one.

[anothermama]

I agree with what calm said and would like to elaborate....

I think AP *should* be defined as listening and responding to your baby's needs, rather than imposing impossible standards on PARENTS so they can get nice little pats on the back.

My son was like calm's child (still is)..........when he was an infant we thought we'd go nuts, he cried so much. When I FIRST had him I was tied to that laudry list of "Things AP Parents Do", so we never put him down to cry. And, as calm mentioned, the first time I DID, he fussed for a while but clearly got CALMER, as opposed to in arms where he would often grow hysterical.

So, to answer the OP, YES! CIO is OK for some babies. And I'm sure it's terribly detrimental to others. I think we need to be less hung up on the lables of what make us a bad APer and just LISTEN to our babies. My daughter I could have NEVER let her CIO.......she would have gotten hysterical. My son...he generally CANT calm himself down if he's in arms and sleepy. I don't understand it, but I'm not going to fight it so that I can be a perfect mama on paper.

And in respect to the questions.........it's all about the baby, IMHO. In the examples listed, yeah, for some babies it WOULD be CIO and it WOULD be harmful. For others it wouldn't be. The wonderful thing about babies is they don't fit into nice little catagories like that.

[IdentityCrisisMama]

I see this quite a bit with the CIO debate ~ that it people view it differently. I would say that a child who doesn't want to be held is not CIO but that's just me.

Oh, I also wanted to address the issue of crying because this was confusing to me when I debated CIO a while back. I think most kids (and adults) whould be able to cry when they want/need to. As a new mom, I tried everything to prevent my child from crying, wich was a bad choice, imo, because I realized that she got some satisfaction from crying occasionally.

So, I wanted to add that supporting your child when they need/want to cry is not CIO, also, imo.