or Connect
Mothering › Mothering Forums › Natural Living › Nutrition and Good Eating › Why AREN'T you a vegan/vegetarian?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Why AREN'T you a vegan/vegetarian? - Page 8

Poll Results: Why AREN'T you a vegan/vegetarian?

 
  • 11% (32)
    I believe animals are here to serve us
  • 25% (71)
    I like the way animal products taste way too much to not eat them
  • 0% (1)
    I have never thought about the cruelties of factory farming
  • 7% (20)
    It's all I know. Eating meat was how I was raised. I never considered anything else
  • 51% (145)
    I believe it is the healthiest way for me to eat
  • 0% (1)
    I'm on a fad diet like atkins that condones eating meat
  • 1% (5)
    I think vegans are weirdos and don't want to grouped in with them
  • 3% (9)
    I have never heard a good argument against eating meat, but would change if I did
284 Total Votes  
post #141 of 198
If someone has said that plants feel pain, please quote them.

I do believe that I am making ethical choices. If I thought that eating meat were any less ethical than eating plants, I wouldn't do it.
post #142 of 198
I agree with Sustainer.

I also wanted to add that I don't agree personally with "eating meat at any cost". No, I don't eat veal or force-fed lamb or goose livers. But would I eat a chicken who has lived a better lifestyle than me? YES! Would I eat grass-fed, pastured, organic beef? Yes! I think there's a difference and I do want the animals I and my family eats to be healthy and well cared for, for both ethical and nutritional reasons.

MamaAllNatutral, yes you're making sense to me on the eating animals / slavery argument. I don't understand how something some humans have been doing for a blink of the eye from an evolutionary perspective can be compared to how we all have lived since we first walked upright carrying our giant animal-slaying club and wearing our animal pelt for warmth. I also think comparing a certain human race or religion to animals to be racist itself... like there's no difference between shackling a man and yoking a water buffalo. Nice. So I guess now if I keep a gypsy moth caterpillar in a cage with leaves and sticks to show dd and ds how it spins a cocoon, etc.... that I'm equivalent to a slave owner. Oh, and I'd love to hear about this from people who, um, ya know, OWN pets for their own pleasure and amusement.
post #143 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Periwinkle
I don't understand how something some humans have been doing for a blink of the eye from an evolutionary perspective can be compared to how we all have lived since we first walked upright carrying our giant animal-slaying club and wearing our animal pelt for warmth. I also think comparing a certain human race or religion to animals to be racist itself... like there's no difference between shackling a man and yoking a water buffalo. Nice. So I guess now if I keep a gypsy moth caterpillar in a cage with leaves and sticks to show dd and ds how it spins a cocoon, etc.... that I'm equivalent to a slave owner. Oh, and I'd love to hear about this from people who, um, ya know, OWN pets for their own pleasure and amusement.
Exactly. ITA.
post #144 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Periwinkle
Oh, and I'd love to hear about this from people who, um, ya know, OWN pets for their own pleasure and amusement.
I'm on the same page as you and sustainer etc. with the meat eating issue, but I just wanted to point out -- it is my understanding that PETA (or, at least, some PETA members) are against pet ownership.

I'm about to call my friendly local organic/free range farmer to see about placing and order for a side of beef. We've visited her farm a few times, those animals have it nice.
post #145 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brisen
I just wanted to point out -- it is my understanding that PETA (or, at least, some PETA members) are against pet ownership.
If anything, I've noticed that people who claim that it's wrong to eat meat are MORE likely to be pet owners. The most flaming animal rights activist I know has 3 cats. I do find it hypocritical, especially when they talk about slavery.
post #146 of 198
Sicne there's a lot of high-falutin' misinformation being slung about here, I'll clarify on the "pet" issue.

PETA (and many other AR organizations) oppose the term "ownership" for a variety of reasons, both philosophical and legal. We view ourselves as guardians of animals, not as owners of "things."

AR activists DO oppose the *breeding* of companion animals when there are so many in dire need of homes. Most of us do rescue homeless or abused companion animals. Where is the hypocrisy in this?

Most AR people I know feed their dogs a vegetarian diet, as dogs are naturally omnivores and most adapt well to not eating meat. To what degree cats are obligate carnivores is a subject of debate in the AR movement. Some have successfully placed cats on a vegan diet; others adamantly oppose this. I tried to have my (rescued) cats go vegan; they wouldn't do it. My compromise is to only buy them game meat-based cat food, so I am not supporting factory farming (or any animal agriculture) by caring for them.

I wish people would get their facts straight--or even just **ask** for more information--before painting a group with such broad brushstrokes. :
post #147 of 198
Karen, thank you for clarifying the AR and PETA stances. If you go back and read what we were all reacting to, it was a comment that an animal doing work for humans or being kept by humans or being penned/raised to be eaten is animal slavery, which ultimately is akin to human slavery. I know all I was trying to do was point out that owning pets (even if you don't call it "own") is the same thing. Cats and dogs, for example have been BRED over thousands of years to produce a species uniquely tailored for human enjoyment and ownership. That's where I go *IF* those same people are saying that yoking a cow to plough a field is animal slavery, and worse, that this is no different than being a slave owner in 1830. It looks like we're somewhat on the same page since you said AR activists condemn animal breeding... but I guess, trying to follow the argument of some of the PPs, I would just say back that can't you question the morality of owning ANY pet whether or not you were the one doing the breeding? In other words, if I adopt a greyhound (dog bred for racing... treated inhumanely on the track circuit, etc.) from a greyhound rescue, am I perpetuating this "animal slavery" or not??? What does the act of adoption (ownership) change about the cause of the problem? It's like saying you wouldn't "breed" or "buy" a slave, but if you "rescued" one found beaten in the woods and gave him a home, then you'd be right to keep him for your pleasure and/or use forever? HUH? Again, I 100% wholeheartedly do not agree with this line of reasoning, but I bring it up trying to tear apart the keeping animals = animal slavery = human slavery argument, which is how pet ownership came up since yes, most people I know who are vegan for ethical reasons own pets.
post #148 of 198
Whether it's called ownership or guardianship and whether they're called pets or animal companions, we're still talking about a situation that is more comprable to slavery than the consumption of meat is.
post #149 of 198
can we PLEASE stop comparing African American humans to dogs and other animals? i know i'm not the only person who has felt uncomfortable about this. even if you don't agree w/ the analogy, using it to make a point is distasteful to say the least and even offensive.

i'm unsub'ing from this thread now.
post #150 of 198
OMG I totally agree!!! Please don't unsubscribe!! I hope I didn't offend you, I was trying to show how ridiculous and offensive that argument is, i.e., I am HIGHLY offended by people saying that! Please see my previous post where I said it was extremely racist itself to make that argument. I think most of us agree.
post #151 of 198
Thank you Guerillamom, this was my point. I didn't like that someone tried to downplay my being hurt at using that analogy.

Perhaps I'm just being sensitive. I just don't like any white person trying to use the very painful history of Black Americans to their advantage. IMO it's not right.


*ETA: Periwinkle, just saw your post. I didn't think your posts were offensive.
post #152 of 198
Thread Starter 
My point about how people used to believe that black people could be used as slaves was not to compare black people to animals (i really dont even see how you could draw that from what I said) my point was that humans have often been wrong in their beliefs. I said humans used to believe that black people were slaves, women were property and the earth was flat and we can now see how wrong these beliefs were.
And For what its worth I come from a biracial family.
post #153 of 198
My point was, if you are not black, don't use the struggles of Black Americans to promote your cause. It seems simple to me.

I understand what you're saying, that humans can't always be relied on to have perfect logic.

I hope you were able to see what I was saying when I explained what people mean when they say humans have always eaten meat.
post #154 of 198
Eating meat and slavery should not be used in the same sentence as examples of human wrongness. It should be clear why doing so is inflammatory. And I think MamaAllNatural established that it is historically invalid.
post #155 of 198
Cross-posted with you, Mama.
post #156 of 198
i couldn't figure out how to unsub! :LOL

Periwinkle - I understood that you were trying to make the point that you DON'T believe that. Sebastiansmommy - I understand that you were not making a literal comparison.

Still, I just think that is an analogy that nobody should be touching w/ a 10 foot pole. It's not just some abstract metaphor - the fact is that we live in a nation where, for centuries (and in many minds up to the present, I'm sure), Black people were literally belived to be subhuman, and the wealth of this society was based on this suffering. It's not academic.

It's kind of similar to the discomfort I feel whenever I hear a non-Black person use the N-word. No, actually, it's worse than that.

Well anyway, MamaAllNatural and Sustainer already said it.
post #157 of 198
One can compare forms of oppression (racism, sexism, speciesism) without equating the victims of oppression. It is a proud progressive tradition to be willing to take a hard look at how forms of prejudice are interrelated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MamaAllNatural
My point was, if you are not black, don't use the struggles of Black Americans to promote your cause. It seems simple to me.
Of course, some African Americans DO see similarities in these forms of oppression, and they DO talk about it. All my earlier post said was that Sebsmommy did not concoct this out of thin air, and gave the name of a book that is--based on the reaction it gets in this thread-- rightly titled "The Dreaded Comparison."

(And on a different note, I really don't get how rescuing cats and dogs and helping care for them over their lifetime is more akin to "enslavement" than keeping animals factory farms and using them solely for our own purposes. But whatever. Seems like the topic is too hot, and for some too painful, to be discussed more productively.)
post #158 of 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaydeesac
One can compare forms of oppression (racism, sexism, speciesism) without equating the victims of oppression. It is a proud progressive tradition to be willing to take a hard look at how forms of prejudice are interrelated.
And I've asked nicely, and this is the last time I'm going to, PLEASE DON'T equate animal opression with the horrific opression that my Dh's and Dc's ancestors had to endure, which they are still feeling. This is the most upset I have become at MDC. I can't believe some of you are willing to be so relentless when people have made it clear over and over again that you're hurting them.


signing off-
post #159 of 198
I've had enough. I'm unsubscribing. guerrillamama, on my page I can scroll down to "thread tools" and click on "unsubscribe from this thread."
post #160 of 198
Not sure if anyone is still reading but I did want to say that I am sorry that this line of examining animal rights is so hurtful for some people. This “dreaded comparison” is just one way, but not by any means the most critical way, of looking at this issue, and if it is that hurtful for people, it’s not worth pursuing. (I will note that so far as I can see, there has not actually been discussion here comparing slavery of humans with animal agriculture; there has been discussion about whether such discussion/comparing should even take place.)

I’ve found that similar outrage occurs when animal rights activists compare animal abuse in agriculture to the Holocaust, as some groups -- and many Jewish people and even Holocaust survivors-- have done. I am Jewish and did lose family in the Holocaust, and I am not remotely offended when animal rights books and campaigns examine the similarities between this form of racism and speciesism. So it is hard for me to relate to the anger about this line of ethical exploration.

But I do hear that even the thought of linking these is very painful, and I am sorry for having contributed to that pain. It was not my intention at all.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Nutrition and Good Eating
Mothering › Mothering Forums › Natural Living › Nutrition and Good Eating › Why AREN'T you a vegan/vegetarian?