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TLC- Family of 15 Kids -WOW!!!!! - Page 6

post #101 of 176
If they have the ATI material and *behave* like ATI teaches I am guessing (being open to being wrong) that they *are* being influenced by the teachings of Gothard.

Shame on me?!

db
post #102 of 176
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I HOPE to GOD above that my children BOTH learn how to use tools, measure , fix thier own cars, deal with their own pliumbing emergancies.I hope to God above that when the washing machine stops working my son or daughter can un plug it, yanl it away fromt he awll, open thier tool box, open the guts of the machine, and in the course of an afternoon, fix the darn thing themselves. Not have to call up some schmoozy repair guy from the phone book and hope he does not charge them enough to have to go out and buy a hwole new machine!

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I sure to hell do not want my daughter to be like me. I have no education, no job skills, no real idea how to do a darn thing for myself past a certain point. I can't hang a danr picture straight. I could not ,meaure a piece of lumber or pipe to save my life. I CANNOT do a thing with my own car. If my tire went flat I would be screwed until someone came and helped me. My job skills are along the lines ofoh..bagger at grocery store, baby sitter, dish washer...all low paid jobs with no future and no way to support a family .
Avonlea, I totally sympathize and agree. I wish I'd written your whole post!

Still not sure I'd want to spend my summer vacation with these folks. Mr.Duggar would probably drive me nuts. Or I'd drive him nuts.
post #103 of 176
BTW, anybody notice that MDC forces you to be submissive?? Take a look at the "reply" button next time you respond to a post.
post #104 of 176
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post #105 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gingey'sMomma
It's one thing to help out around the house to learn responsibility and teamwork, but these children are primarily responsible for all the household duties - including raising their younger siblings via the Buddy system.
Laralou, she is right in saying this. The article she wrote herself says that the kids do most of the work for the little ones, the the older kids teach the little ones school--they learn that way, the kids do the laundry, etc. It was way more eye opening than some edited for TV goodness. It was kind of shocking....not so much as helping here and there, but doing the work. Chores are not a bad thing, but for them to be the only thing...well, that does not sit well with me. In a family thatlarge, I realize there needs to be structure, but as DB pointed out it may be with ill intentions.

I cannot find the original article, but
Quote:
"The older child gets to become the teacher and it seems like you learn so much more ... than when you're just the student," Michelle said.
And a lot more in the original. I need to find it. I am sure that is fine to help them, but what about learning for themselves? I know the last thing I wanted to do as a teen was study elementary level stuff, I wanted to know more...
post #106 of 176
I'd like to produce a reality show featuring this family and visits to events and places across the US.

First episode --
The Duggars go to a gay pride parade.
post #107 of 176
What is an ATI family?
post #108 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by NaturalMomie
What is an ATI family?
I am not db, and I may be wrong....but
http://ati.iblp.org/atii/

Quote:
The Advanced Training Institute International was founded in 1984 by the Institute in Basic Life Principles through the vision of Bill Gothard. It began as the answer to the request of Basic Seminar alumni who desired to train their children in the Biblical principles that had transformed their lives.
I posted about Gothard above, and it is best to read it in his own words. I could never sum it up. http://billgothard.com/bill/

But his site is not nearly as exciting as the one I posted above

http://www.factnet.org/discus/messag...tml?1098756332
post #109 of 176
[QUOTE=Melaniee]Okay, I saw this when it aired last month. The things that struck me as very odd and patriarchal were the J-names,


Ok so because the kids have names that start with the same letter its cultish and weird? count me in that boat then all three of my girls have names that begin with BR and it was NO small feat selecting unique names to keep with our theme...oh and for what its worth my name in the real word starts with a BR as well!!



I also thought she must have nursed for a short amount of time based upon the consistently-close ages of her children.

Again this is uber judgmental! I can promise you its entirely possible to have an 18 month old and a newborn and be EXCLUSIVELY nursing when you get pregnant! :


did you see that playground at their new humongous home?!

Ya it was kickin' ! My kids would really dig something like that

And ICK to the contents of their pantry! I was expecting all made-from-scratch stuff when she takes the time to make all their clothing, but that Tater Tot Casserole?

Agreed the food was nasty and I did not care for the fundamentalist christian policies they adhere too.


The wife looked SO young to have all those children...both meaning she must have started young, and how can she possibly STILL look that young? LOL.

8 kids here...and I look 21 at best ...get carded at the LCBO when buying wine granted I do not consider myself to be anything less than a "yummy mommy" and I make an effort to stay that way!



ETA...and of course the whole Jim-Bob-centered nature of things (the children's names, and even check out their website's name) irritated me, personally, but clearly there are those in this country who feel the male is the center of their family's universe.
Some of the names did seem bizarre but hey whatever floats your boat!

anyhow I think my whole point here as Chaka pointed out ..was that we all do our own things and instill our own values in our kids...and whats good for me or you might not be good for the next person...I think its miracle enough that they all have clean clothes to wear..LMAO can see the floor in their house and that they are not all wigged out! because I do not see them day and day out I defer making any judgement on them aside from what I already stated about personally NOT sharing their religious beliefs and finding some of the religious overtones to be a little too much for ME personally to swallow and I would NOT submerge my kids in that.
post #110 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsupialmuma
anyhow I think my whole point here as Chaka pointed out ..was that we all do our own things and instill our own values in our kids...and whats good for me or you might not be good for the next person...


yes....

Quote:
because I do not see them day and day out I defer making any judgement on them aside from what I already stated about personally NOT sharing their religious beliefs and finding some of the religious overtones to be a little too much for ME personally to swallow and I would NOT submerge my kids in that.
You do not share their religious beliefs, neither do I (to start the idea of male centeredness does not sit well with me either)--do you realize what Gothard is all about? Did you read the PP about him? Shocking IMO. This would be acceptable? There are behaviors in the world people find unacceptable no? We do not accept everything do we. I hate to make comparisons, but a few things come to mind immediately. How do we determine was is and isn't? Also, I have done a little reading on it, and it considered by some to be a cult. My sister is a pretty religious Southern Baptist--very conservative-- (and what the Duggars are) and she told me that is commonly thought in her church and ones she has gone to that they are cultish...Extremist.

I think that is where my issue with it is. I agree it is great we do our own thing, and we have our own values--but at what expense? There are some testimonals from older ATI women who were ruined from the experience as a kid. I am just curious as to when it becomes the freedom to do what we want to crossing the line to abuse (which is not my word choice, but one I saw used before)? ( I will find the site later. I am so tried now, why am I up )

Maybe DebraBaker knows more, as she seemed to have a little background knowledge in this area. Mine is all from reading this thread. Not to great!
post #111 of 176
Quote:
Quote:
I also thought she must have nursed for a short amount of time based upon the consistently-close ages of her children.
Again this is uber judgmental! I can promise you its entirely possible to have an 18 month old and a newborn and be EXCLUSIVELY nursing when you get pregnant!
Actually, perhaps it is naive or even inaccurate, but my entire post was my impression of the show and I prefaced this sentence with "Thought." I would not call it 'uber-judgemental.' I could think of a million other things to say on the subject which could demonstrate an 'uber-judgemental' spin, but then they'd probably be taken out of context 20 posts later and someone will think that is what I actually meant.
post #112 of 176
Would you guys stop defending the clothes and hair as just modest. You can be modest and not look like that.

I've seen too many gorgeous Muslim women to think otherwise.
post #113 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by yeah yeah yeah
Would you guys stop defending the clothes and hair as just modest. You can be modest and not look like that.

I've seen too many gorgeous Muslim women to think otherwise.
Just because you think they look wierd doesn't mean that the way they dress is wrong. I've also seen lots of lovely Muslim women. But I know plenty of people who think even the most lovely of Middle Eastern outfits is odd and way beyond just modest, and wouldn't look at them as gorgeous. I have Mennonite friends who have their uniform dress pattern, and dress very plainly and "beyond modest". They are some of the most beautiful people I know, inside and out, if you can get past the initial "Oh my gosh, what strange clothes".

People have different concepts of what is beautiful and what is proper. Some people think old fashioned is beautiful. Some people really just don't care what the rest of the world thinks. There is a growing market for more old-fashioned style clothing, especially among conservative Christians. If I had the means and the time to sew my own clothes, I'd probably look a lot more like the Duggars than I do now (and we're not even an ATI family). And I'd prefer my girls dress in long frilly dresses than in shorts with "Angel" written across the butt. Matter of fact, I'm working on some pretty "old fashioned" looking dresses in case this next baby is a girlie. And if it is, she will be dresses-only from day one. That should bring down some fires of judgement, I'm sure. :

I can understand not liking a particular style of dress. But I think it is really unfair to judge someone as cultish or bizarre because thier standards of dress/modesty/beauty don't match up with yours.
post #114 of 176
I admire their organization system, but I just kept thinking, "Mr. Dugger you ol' horn dog!"
Please don't flame me!
post #115 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by cappuccinosmom
And I'd prefer my girls dress in long frilly dresses than in shorts with "Angel" written across the butt. Matter of fact, I'm working on some pretty "old fashioned" looking dresses in case this next baby is a girlie. And if it is, she will be dresses-only from day one.
Actually I think that there is some absurb fashions for young girls. And I prefered dresses, and rarely wore pant until I was in HS (I never worn Jeans at all until HS).

Quote:
I can understand not liking a particular style of dress. But I think it is really unfair to judge someone as cultish or bizarre because thier standards of dress/modesty/beauty don't match up with yours.
But that is the point anymore. Ok, so some people think they need an update. That is their opinion. I grew up around Amish people, and they are just like anyone else to me. I never notice them....they are just a part of life.

The issue for me is intent. Why do you do these things? And if they are in line with ATI, well, when does it become a cult? And after reading about ATI, well, I have to say that tailoring and misinterpreting the Bible while overlooking other parts is misleading to people. If they were calling themselves another name not in line with a mainstream accepted religion, then I would have no problem whatsoever. For me it is taking something it, altering it to fit your personal ideals and values and perpetuating as something it is not.

It may have been on this thread that someone posted a link as to a firsthand account of why their daughter had to have long, "unhip" hair and dress in long dresses, and the reasons were startling (even from a Christian perspective) to me. I will have to find it.

I love that we have different religions, and we all approach spirituality differently. But when is it no longer a religion but a cult? Plus I feel like Gothard is using religion for a bigger agenda after reading things on him-he is not just interested in spreading conservative Christianity.

I am sure there are other religions that oppress women and free thought, but at whose expense? And is it healthy?
post #116 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by meco
The issue for me is intent. Why do you do these things? ....I am sure there are other religions that oppress women and free thought, but at whose expense? And is it healthy?
THe problem is, *they* believe that they are doing the right and Godly thing. Why do they dress that way? Probably because they not only want to be modest, but want to be distinct from the hurly-burly world, to be visibly different (same reasons as the Amish and Mennonites), and maybe they even think that type of clothing is cute. I know other Gothardite families with *way* different style of dress, much more modern, clean lines, more fashionable, etc. And I know others who would make the Duggars look positively normal .

I went through the "oppression" thing before. I *choose* to submit to my husband. I knew that's the style of marriage I wanted before I even met him, and it certainly wasn't parental influence. My mom's a recovering feminist, but not that far recovered. So assuming the woman and daughters are being beaten into submission (verbally or physically) to male headship is not right.

I just think it's unfair to assume oppression and cultism when all there is to go on is a short, heavily edited, made-for-TV-viewers show.
post #117 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by cappuccinosmom
I just think it's unfair to assume oppression and cultism when all there is to go on is a short, heavily edited, made-for-TV-viewers show.
ITA There is too much we don't know, ya know? And with shows like that they are definately edited. Interesting thread. Me and my "un-hip" hair have been watching it closely lol
post #118 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by cappuccinosmom
Matter of fact, I'm working on some pretty "old fashioned" looking dresses in case this next baby is a girlie. And if it is, she will be dresses-only from day one. That should bring down some fires of judgement, I'm sure.
Just curious, Cappuccinosmom, what if your daughter doesn't want to wear only dresses? How old does she have to be to get a say? Just trying to understand another viewpoint. I have a daughter, and I hate the suggestive little girl things, too. I only buy darling, little-girl things, no hootchie-mama clothes. But, I have to tell ya, it is really hard to crawl in dresses, and of course, they are chilly in a cold climate, so you may want to take that into consideration when you are sewing. I hope you get your girl! (but boys are great, too!)
post #119 of 176
This is from that article Debra posted-

Quote:
One of the most sorrowful things for me to see in godly homeschool families is when the daughters, instead of following their mothers' example and planning to stay at home and raise their own children, go off to college and get a degree so they can have a well-paying job
Sad. I think that moms should be home with their kids too, but there's nothing wrong with going to college if you want to.
post #120 of 176
It isn't a bad thing for girls to go to college and get degrees that qualify them for well-paying jobs, either.

It isn't a bad thing for a girl to have dreams that go beyond marrying and bearing children (not that marrying and bearing children are bad things but to limit an entire gender to these two things is, well, oppressive.

I have *chosen* to be a stay home mother.

It isn't a bad thing for couples to find balance that allows both mother and father to *parent* and have careers as well. My secondborn is in med school. Her husband will likely be a stay home daddy. I'm hoping she will be able to nurse her children long term, I know it can be done but there are emerging balances that weren't offered to my generation of mothers.

I think the gender judgement of sending women into a tight role is just plain wrong on many levels.

Debra Baker
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