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Adhd - Page 2

Poll Results: What is ADHD?

This is a multiple choice poll
  • 9% (9)
    A brain disease to be treated with drugs
  • 10% (10)
    A brain disease to be treated by natural remedies
  • 10% (10)
    Something caused by the family
  • 4% (4)
    Something caused by the schools
  • 22% (22)
    A complete scam made up by schools and doctors
  • 44% (44)
    Other
99 Total Votes  
post #21 of 140
Thread Starter 
BritishMum - Most people who undergo "brain scans" to "prove" some sort of "mental illness" have already been taking toxic drugs. This includes testing for ADHD, schizophrenia and depression. The tests are invalid, and would be even if the individuals were not on drugs, because all brains vary from all others, and things like sexual abuse, violence, and other emotional trauma all cause "different patterns" in the brain.

I worked in a mental health clinic for years, and saw massive improvement in everyone who stopped their medications, no matter what their diagnosis.

Of course, I think drugs should be available for those who want them...for THEMSELVES!
post #22 of 140
Unfortunately, I think there are a lot of people who are having problems and aren't really in a position to judge for themselves whether they want/need medication. This includes people who are too sick to know and people who are too young to know. Still, that might be okay if the lack of medication only affected them, but where it is acted out in violence or other disruptive behaviors, I believe there are times when parents have to step in.

BTW, my belief with ADD and ADHD is also that some very real cases exist that are helped by medication. However, I think the majority of cases are misdiagnosed, and the majority of these are more problems with the school system and what it expects than problems with the child's behavior.
post #23 of 140
Well I only have experience with adult ADD (my dh) and in our case we are going to try medication (he's going to follow up appointments after a 12 page questionaire and a therapist appt in October). For *us* all the tips and tricks to help out with remembering just doesn't do enough (making charts, I try to remind him of things very often and not get mad, using a whiteboard for "to do's" ect). I really believe the medication isn't going to "fix" him, but is a tool to help us along. If children or adults with ADD or ADD/HD can use tools besides medication (including natural remedies, which if anyone wants to let me know of some I'd love to know of them) then waaaay more power to them!!

And also I don't see ADD as this horrible thing (well sometimes when I've been begging him to take out the trash for a week that changes) all the time. Dh can hyper focus on things like working on computers, woodworking, ect...

He's currently reading a book on ADD/HD and the author was making a point that perhaps ADD isn't a disease but rather just a different way the brain functions. Back in hunter and gathering times, it would really benefit a hunter to have ADD and have that hyperfocus on his prey. To not get distracted by other people or things... Of course, from what I've heard/learned I think children tend to get easily distracted, and my dh does the opposite. He gets caught up into watching tv, being on the computer, ect and when I talk he sometimes doesn't even hear me (seriously!). Of course he does have plenty of times where his mind wanders and I don't know how that would figure into a hunter lifestyle...

But its kinda cool to think that there is a *reason* for my dh being this way as opposed to thinking something is wrong with him.

But still, for our marital sanity we've choosen to try medication. Hope it helps for us
post #24 of 140
"Most people who undergo "brain scans" to "prove" some sort of "mental illness" have already been taking toxic drugs. This includes testing for ADHD, schizophrenia and depression. The tests are invalid, and would be even if the individuals were not on drugs, because all brains vary from all others, and things like sexual abuse, violence, and other emotional trauma all cause "different patterns" in the brain."

Greaseball - I agree with you - the differences in the brain between children diagnosed with ADHD and their peers could be caused by many things. My personal conclusion, after a lot of reading on the subject, is that the brain differences are probably caused by the lack of use of the parts of the brain rather than a genetic difference. (ie 'use it or lose it')

The lack of use could be due to any number of reasons - and in each person they would be different. In many ADHD children, however, I would think the reasons would be tied up with early experiences that encourage impulsive non-attentive behaviours - eg computer use and TV watching. Of course, there could be a genetic disposition to make it more likely that one child would become ADHD having had the same experiences as another child with a different genetic makeup.

The particular piece of research that I'm talking about was on about 100 children, and although I can't find reference to medication, I believe that they were newly diagnosed and not using any drugs at the stage when they were studied. Of course, all brains differ, but the findings in this study were that there were clear patterns in the size and development of specific areas of the brain that were common to the children with ADHD, despite individual differences.

I also agree strongly with Hydrangea that the problems often lie with a system that expects behavoiurs of children that are simply not reasonable and developmentally appropriate - hence the successes that some teachers have with ADHD chidlren when they present a curriculum in an appropriate way.
post #25 of 140
Quote:
Originally posted by hydrangea
Unfortunately, I think there are a lot of people who are having problems and aren't really in a position to judge for themselves whether they want/need medication. This includes people who are too sick to know and people who are too young to know. Still, that might be okay if the lack of medication only affected them, but where it is acted out in violence or other disruptive behaviors, I believe there are times when parents have to step in.
I am quoting myself because I think I may have been misunderstood by someone. I am basing this mostly on what I know of violent schizophrenic adults (I know schizophrenia is very different from add/adhd, but I am using this as an example because of the medicine). I know what I know mostly from NPR and from my mother who used to work with schizophrenics and from a friend who's stepson (adult) is schizophrenic. Not all schizophrenics have violent tendencies, but some do, and sometimes the ones who do refuse to take their medicine and then commit violent acts, even murder. Medicine can help them. Possibly there are other ways, and ideally each of these people would have some sort of counselor who was there for them at all times, who would really work with them, etc. But I tend to trust what I've heard that sometimes these people need medication, even though they don't want to take it.

I think in rare cases there are children who need medicine for ADD and ADHD and some of these children can be are destructive to themselves and/or others without their medicine. I personally don't know anyone like this, but I am assuming from anecdotes that there are some children like this. The child might be to young or too sick to understand that the medicine helps to keep them safe, in which case, a parent may decide that the child should take it. I do believe in these cases (as in all cases) that a parent needs to keep the lines of communication open, to be aware of how the medicine affects the child, how the child feels about taking the medicine, whether there are alternative therapies out that might help, etc., etc.

If my opinion needs further clarification, please let me know.
post #26 of 140
I think what's wonderful about this discussion is that it mirrors how complex this topic is (and should be). Simplistic answers are never totally useful (although they can be temporarily comforting!) The question of ADHD, brain chemistry should be considered by professionals as an extremely complex discussion, rather than the often seen "let's try this medication, and if it works, your child probably has ADHD."

I think ADHD can come from so many different variables. Everyone is right! Trauma is known to create changes in brain chemistry. Poor attachment through neglect, abuse, etc., which is experienced by the baby/toddler as trauma, literally does change the brain and this is documented. Added to that is family history of birth parents who may have undiagnosed mental illnesses. In well cared for children there are still incidences of ADHD. Then there is the "use it or lose" phenomenon. And the idea that video games and other things like it will cause the part of the brain that is already over functioning to continue to strengthen, while the creative, imaginative part of the brain suffers entropy. Throw on some preservatives, vaccines, junk food, school emphasis on sitting and writing, and you have the recipe for disaster.

HOpefully, through parents getting more educated, we can challenge the parts of the system that go too fast for the easy answer. Bravo to LianmEmma who is right there "in the system" and refusing to bow to the pressure to diagnose. I'm sure the pressure is intense.

I wanted to tell Lisa Lynn that there are natural remedies that seem to be helpful. The Omega oils (essential fatty acids) have been helpful to lots of people. You can research this online. Also, we have never pursued the homeopathic approach for my son's ADD tendencies (tho' we use homeopathy for lots of other things) but I've heard it is helpful. The Omega oils have definitely helped my son.

Tomorrow is the first day of school here in our town!!
post #27 of 140
Thread Starter 
Mothering has some great articles about Ritalin and ADHD in some of the back issues. I've donated them all to the WIC office, but I'm sure they're online somewhere!

I've been reading a lot of books by Dr. Breggin, a psychiatrist who has been in practice 20 years and who is also a teacher at Harvard Medical school. And, most important of all, he's a parent! He's a different kind of shrink in that he does not force his clients to take drugs and he's totally against drugging children. One particularly good point he had was that Ritalin affects all children who take it, not just the ones who have been diagnosed, and that the same is true of antidepressants, antipsychotics and other drugs.

There was a study done about using "talk therapy" in place of drugs for violent schizophrenics (as if they are somehow more of a problem than other violent people!). It was effective, but many times more expensive than drugs. I used it a lot where I worked and it was great! There was one time when I had to physically restrain someone but since I did not allow anyone to drug her I was able to talk to her and tell her what was happening (she had accidentally ingested LSD) she calmed down quickly.

One of the county mental health docs gave a presentation about Ritalin and he was talking about how helpful it was to parents and teachers, and I asked him "How do the children feel about it?" That was met with a blank stare, and then he said "Interesting question, I don't know, no one has ever asked that before!" So I showed him all these interviews with children who said "This medication makes me feel weird" and stuff like that, and the presentation took a very different turn! Basically it got ruined, but the doctor actually looked happy!
post #28 of 140
Greaseball, that's some interesting information. Thank you for sharing it. I'll try to check out something by Breggin at some point.

I found a conversation on the unschooling.com boards about add and all it's variations that you might find interesting. It's at http://www.unschooling.com/discus/me...st2820020323pm

Of course it's from an unschooling perspective and this is the public schooling board, so forgive me if I've overstepped my boundaries.
post #29 of 140
Thread Starter 
The books I was reading are Toxic Psychiatry, Reclaiming Our Children, Talking Back to Ritalin, and Your Drug May Be Your Problem.

Also, there is www.breggin.com

I don't know when Ritalin was invented, but I'm only 23 and somehow managed not to be on it. In middle school I was constantly an annoyance, pulling leaves off teachers' plants, climbing on top of file cabinets, banging on doors and running away, etc. I got expelled and moved out of state to live with my dad and went to a different school. That helped some. Later I tried Ritalin recreationally and hated it!

No one, however, asked "Why does this child feel the need to act out in such extreme ways? Can't she find a more positive way to get attention?" I think that really was the key.
post #30 of 140
I didn't do the poll because I'm sick of the question. I think someone else pointed out here that schizophrenia, like AD/HD, is a disease that's diagnosed by a set of symptoms. You never hear people saying schizophrenia isn't real. I'm pretty sure tourrettes and OCD are diagnosed by their symptom's, but most people believe they are real diseases. And tourrettes and OCD share many similarites with AD/HD.

And it isn't just a behavior problem. Many people with AD/HD also have other ld's and most have problems writing.

And that whole tv/computer argument bothers me too. My ds has very involved parents who didn't own a computer when he was small. His tv was limited. He's still ADHD, just like his daddy and his grandma (who, by the way, grew-up without tv, computers or junky food).

I do agree that vaccines and the American diet could be making those who are genetically predisposed to AD/HD exhibit much worse symptoms than they would have 50 years ago. And that's probably why we're seeing so many more people with this disorder. The same way we're seeing more kids with autism, asthma and dyslexia.

And by the way, my ds is homeschooled and he's still ADHD. He doesn't take medication at home, but he couldn't have survived in a public school setting without it. Not everybody can homeschool, so I don't blame anyone who makes the choice to medicate. My dh has chosen to take ritalin and it has changed his life. And as far as becoming addicted- I'm sure it will never happen. He's been taking it for three years, but he will sometimes go a month or two without it because he can't remember to get his perscription refilled!
post #31 of 140
Thread Starter 
Actually, the Breggin books, books by other psychiatrists, and therapists at the mental health clinic I worked in claim that schizophrenia, like all other mental illnesses, is not real, but that's a whole other issue...

DSM-IV Diagnostic Criteria (By the way I mean this all in good fun. If I sound hostile it's at the book and not at any of you.)

A: Either (1) or (2):
1: "six (or more) of the following symptoms of inattention have persisted for at least 6 months to a degree that is maladaptive and inconsistent with developmental level":

(Maladaptive to whom, I might ask?)

a: "often fails to give close attention to details or makes careless mistakes in schoolwork, work, or other activities"

(Exactly how often is 'often?' I don't know any children that don't frequently make mistakes in various activities.)

b: "often has difficulty sustaining attention in tasks or play activities"

(What sort of play activities? The ones the child herself has chosen, or the ones deemed 'appropriate' by some adult?)

c: "often does not seem to listen when spoken to directly"

(When spoken to with respect, or when spoken to 'like a child?')

d: "often does not follow through on instructions and fails to finish schoolwork, chores, or duties in the workplace"

(My community newsletter says that if a child puts off homework until the last minute, it means homework is not very interesting to the child and her educational system should be reevaluated. It said the same thing for the system wanting to drug her just because she doesn't find her homework interesting.)

e: "often has difficulty organizing tasks and activities"

(Again, the ones she wants to do or the ones adults want her to do?)

f: "often avoids, dislikes, or is reluctant to engage in tasks that require sustained mental effort (such as schoolwork or homework)"

(My dh is a teacher. He says if a child does not want to learn, or doesn't like school, that something is really wrong with the school, because children are born with a desire to learn.)

g: "often loses things necessary for tasks or activities (e.g., toys, school assignments, pencils, books, or tools)"

(That's what I did to get out of classes I hated.)

h: "is often easily distracted by extraneous stimuli"

(When you're sitting in a desk and some lady is yelling at you to sit up straight and fold your hands in your lap - just like in the Ezzo books - then a little chirping bird or falling leaf outside the window can seem pretty interesting!)

i: "is often forgetful in daily activities"

(This is used to describe a lot of other "illnesses," from depression to multiple personality disorder.)

2: "six (or more) of the following symptoms of hyperactivity-impulsivity have persisted for at least 6 months to a degree that is maladaptive and inconsistent with developmental level:"

(Interesting...the symptoms have to persist 6 mo before a diagnosis can be made. What doctor is going to say "Let him hate school for a few more months and then bring him back.")

a: "often fidgets with hands or feet or squirms in seat"

(Uh, those desks are really uncomfortable.)

b: "often leaves seat in classroom or in other situations in which remaining seated is expected"

(Especially if not allowed to go to the bathroom or get a drink until the almighty teacher says so.)

c: "often runs about or climbs excessively in situations in which it is inappropriate (in adolescents or adults, may be limited to subjective feelings of restlessness)"

(Subjective feelings of restlessness and inappropriate running and climbing. Hey, that's every child I know under age 5!)

d: "often has difficulty playing or engaging in leisure activities quietly"

(Playing noisily is a lot more fun. Penelope Leach, author of Your Baby and Child, says that if children are not allowed to laugh and kick their legs and otherwise use noise and movement to express their feelings, they will soon stop having those feelings.)

e: 'is often "on the go" or often acts as if "driven by a motor" '

(When he grows up and has to make $4000 per month to support his family and afford health care, that quality will be appreciated.)

f: "often talks excessively"

(When children don't talk enough, they get labeled with something else, like autism or depression.)

g: "often blurts out answers before questions have been completed"

(Maybe move him to a more advanced class? And celebrate the fact that he knows the answer? If he didn't know the answer, he would be called slow.)

h: "often has difficulty awaiting turn"

(These are children! What child wants to wait their turn?)

i: "often interrupts or intrudes on others (e.g., butts into conversations or games)"

(When children do not receive the attention they require, they will go to great lenghts to get it. A lot of parents are given the advice to 'just ignore' their children when they are trying to get attention, and this backfires with the child butting into their conversations and games.)

B: "Some hyperactive-impulsive or inattentive symptoms that caused impairment were present before age 7 years."

(Ritalin prescriptions for toddlers have increased.)

C: "Some impairment from the symptoms is present in two or more settings (e.g., at school [or work] and at home)."

(Children are forced into many 'settings' they don't want to be in.)

D: "There must be clear evidence of clinically significant impairment in social, academic, or occupational functioning."

(Clinically significant? I don't believe that's of the most significance to the child.)

E: "The symptoms do not occur exclusively during the course of a Pervasive Developmental Disorder, Schizophrenia, or other Psychotic Disorder and are not better accounted for by another mental disorder (e.g., Mood Disorder, Anxiety Disorder, Dissociative Disorder, or a Personality Disorder)."

(Interesting. That means if a child is psychotic, anxious or depressed, he cannot be diagnosed! But how many children, meeting all or most of the above criteria, would not be anxious or depressed?)

OK, sorry it was so long. My point was that I don't know any children, or adults, who would not qualify for this diagnosis.
post #32 of 140
Ivy, you raise a good point:

"schizophrenia, like AD/HD, is a disease that's diagnosed by a set of symptoms. You never hear people saying schizophrenia isn't real. "

I wasn't saying that I don't believe that ADHD is 'real'. Foir a small minority of people, ADHD is possibly 'real'. (I use the word 'possibly' not because I am doubting your experience, but because I did not come across any child in my professional years who convinced me that he or she was 'really' ADHD.) I am still on the fence about whether or not ADHD is a genetic condition or one caused by social conditions, but that doesnt mean that I don't believe that your experience is real. I think it's great that you have found a solution that works for your dh and your family.

I do believe that many many many children display the 'symptoms' of ADHD but are not actually ADHD. They are either normal children, who are not conforming to unreasonable expectations of adults. Or they are displaying these symptoms for any number of reasons - TV and computer use, for example, could be one of them. Or diet, or vaccinations, or lack of parental guidance and attention, or many other things. But that is not the same as saying that ALL children (including your child) who are diagnosed with ADHD watch too much TV, or have a poor diet. Just that many, in my experience, do!
post #33 of 140
Something caused by unrealistic, unhealthy societal expectations of children!!! I don't doubt that there are a few biological cases, however, I believe that to be rare. We're at an outrageous rate of diagnosis. What is it, like 20%? I can't remember, I'll have to go back to my research (I did a presentation on this in school) Read the diagnosis description, it describes every child. Ritalin & the like are category II drugs - like cocaine. I think many people use this stuff without giving it enough thought (I am not accusing anyone here) It just makes me sad.
post #34 of 140
Thread Starter 
Some of the doctors whose books I've been reading say that they see schools dispense more psychiatric medications than mental hospitals.

I also find it interesting that the American diagnosis is different than the European diagnosis. Are the two brains really that different? Or is it something else that's different?

Ritalin is methylphenidate, Adderall is amphetamine and Desoxyn is methamphetamine. (Those are the generic names.) How are we supposed to tell children to stay away from meth now?
post #35 of 140
Greaseball - I sooooo agree with your analysis of the symptoms. If only more teachers and schools could work with children in a way that is developmentally appropriate, I believe we'd see the number of ADHD diagnoses fall dramatically.

Of course many children are inattentive, or seem disorganised, or blurt out answers before listening to a question, or seem not to listen. That's why it's a teacher's (and parent's) job to help them to develop these skills. Listening and attention skills are learned, they are not something children are born with. Teachers need to actively teach these skills - and of course, make sure that the lesson is appropriate and worth listening to!

If all schools could all realise that children are not trees and are not supposed to sit still for long periods of time, they'd stop expecting the unreasonable, and I believe that ADHD would cease to exist, except maybe for a very tiny minority.

Do you have the European definition? I didnt realise that the two are different. I know that in the UK the rate of diagnosis is far less than in the US, but on the rise. ADHD is a term that is thrown around a lot, but I only came across a handful of children with an official diagnosis, and only two or three on drugs. (I worked with a very high number of special needs children, so there were many who displayed the symptoms, but the official diagnosis was very rare. The tendency was to work using behavioural techniques, not drugs, thankfully. Many of the teachers had a great level of success.)
post #36 of 140
Thread Starter 
Well, I don't want to post a big long thing again but I'm looking on the web for the Euro description.

It basically says stuff like "dreamy behaviour," "accident prone," and "unpopular with other children." It seems to be similar to the American description - maybe a little less tolerant of normal childhood behaviors - strange, I thought America would be the most intolerant! It's worded really differently, too strange for my American eyes to comprehend.

Relationships with adults are socially disinhibited...more common in boys...

This one isn't in a nicely bulleted list like the American one. I seem to be deficient in the amount of attention I can give to it. Maybe if I stopped fidgeting in my chair...It's at www.mentalhealth.com

This site has this neat quiz thing where you can take all these tests to find out which mental illnesses you have!
post #37 of 140
Just wanted to point out that teachers cannot dispense medication. Neither can they diagnose ADD or any other kind of condition.
post #38 of 140
The other thing is that kids with ADD don't start suddenly displaying symptoms when they go to school. They've shown them since a young age; in our case, since birth.
post #39 of 140
Thread Starter 
Nurse practitioners, which are employed in schools, (at least at high schools, I don't know if elementary schools have them) are allowed to prescribe medication, or to dispense medication that a parent wants a child to have, if the parent gets it from the child's doctor and leaves it with the school nurse.
post #40 of 140
Right, they can dispense meds that the child brings, but they can't diagnose diseases/conditions and prescribe meds. ADHD should be diagnosed by a psychiatrist or psychologist.