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"SAHM jobs" vs. SAH full-time - Page 4

post #61 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Faith
If you are soooo okay with not just SAH, then why are you blowing up?
Darn, I forgot the ever useful "I must be right because what I said p!ssed you off, therefore you must feel guilty" argument. By that logic you must feel guilty for staying home since you need to so vigorously defend it. This has become utterly useless. Thank you for perpetuating the bull$h!t that society heaps on all mothers. I guess you aren't really looking to make things better, are you?

To Amys1st, mamawanabe, wawap, kaydeesac, charmarty, zipperump-a-zoomum, and all the rest...you guys rock!
post #62 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by wawap


"Mothering" will never get the respect it deserves until all mothers learn to respect one another. It's a plain and simple fact.

Laura
This bears repeating...
post #63 of 89
Nicolee77- thank you, I try to rock!

But since my 15 minutes is almost up on this subject,
I think we need to say- remember we are all in this together. Not everyone is going to be happy being a SAHM. An unhappy mama leads to all kinds of other problems.
Faith- if being a SAHM 100% with out any sort of anything else works for you-then more power to you. But don't look down on others because its not their cup of tea.

As a SAHM I have never worked so hard in my life. There is no lunch hours, breaks, vacation days, or quitting time to leave. Nor are there raises etc. BTW- I am not complaining I am explaining! Thats quite an adjustment for a lot of people though and if getting out of the house a few hours a week helps the mom, then more power to her as well.

Remember, this is a very diposable society. For most woman now- there are so many choices that your grandmothers did not have. If you went to school- you could study what you were interested in. If you decided it didn't work, you could switch majors. If the guy you were in a relationship wasn't going anywhere, you could trade him in for a new model. You can work and if the job or career choice is not your thing, you have the means to do something about it. There are so many choices out there.

But, when the baby comes, you cannot undo that- its not going back- nor can you trade it in for a new one! If you spend your time with the baby or if you have to be away from the baby to fill a financial need, the baby is not going away. With choices comes other problems but we need to support these woman who make different choices than our own. Their children are the same generation as your children and they could cross paths some day.

Faith I wish you the best, and again, if I meet you in a darkened alley, don't be too hard on me since I don't live up to your expectations. But remember you may run into one day as a fellow PTA parent, friend at church, a LLL member, or even yet- future MIL to your children. It may not be me, but someone just like me and she also would not appreciate the high expectations and judgement put on her or her children
post #64 of 89
I see a lot of defensiveness on this thread too. Many women don't feel like they're allowed to "just" SAHM. That's how it is. NO ONE FEELS LIKE THEY'RE NOT *ALLOWED* TO SELL SHIT ON E-BAY, or have Tupperware parties, or sell Avon. In fact, you are encouraged to do so both culturally and by the shiny, shiny money.

This is the second thread I've seen in five minutes that degenerated into paycheck mamas berating SAHM's for daring to suggest that we just might have something special to complain about.
post #65 of 89
SAH full time parents having anything to complain about is acceptable. Using phrases like "another one bites the dust" or "paycheck mamas" in reference to SAHP who have to or choose to generate some type of income is elitist and insulting.

I think it is one thing to complain about people's judgements of SAHM/D FT, yet another to complain and then judge others. Why does it have to be such a war? I know I hate having to explain that I need to provide childcare to supplement our tiny income, yet at the same time I am glad that the environment I live in is surrounded by SAH full time and PT who appear more accepting then what I would have epected from so called more open-minded AP mamas.

I love coming to MDC and seeing the diversity in here. I hate seeing the diversity being compared and challenged. To repeat what I already said, there is nothing wrong with complaining about how one feels judged. It is another to complain about feeling judged and then fueling fire to the judgement cycle.

To repeat the wonderful quote I read earlier "Mothering will never get the respect it deserves until all mothers learn to respect one another. It's a plain and simple fact."- Laura
post #66 of 89
Part of that respect is not personalizing someone else's expressions of aggravation at her own situatuion. If what the OP said made you hot under the collar, maybe, just maybe that's your problem and not hers. Give her the respect of understanding that she is having a normal exasperated reaction to irritating circumstances. Give me the respect of slowing down for five minutes and thinking "ok, paycheck mamas bothers me, but maybe I'm not seeing something here." For heaven's sake, "paycheck mamas" is from FLYLADY. How can you get less elitist than Flylady?
post #67 of 89
Urklemama, I am going to assume that you have not read this thread in its entirety. No one had any complaints about what the OP's original intent was...in fact, many people (including wohms) echoed her frustrations that parenting your children isn't considered valuable by much of society. The only thing that I took issue with in her op was her comment that she was being asked to

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faith
raise their DC too
This kind of comment is uncalled for and I explained quite calmly why I felt that way. The response of Faith and others to that included comments like:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faith
If I also have my neighbors two kids here during that time (cooking for them, listening to them, answering their big & little questions, reading to them, discplining them, helping them go potty, etc...), what am I doing? I call it helping raise them. I might even be doing *more* of it than their own parents are, by the time they get here to pick them up at six and have them in bed by nine.
*These two-year-olds were being raised, no matter who was there doing it!*
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pageta
I tell myself that I would rather live my simple lifestyle than have such a consumer-oriented lifestyle...Perspective, perspective
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountain
The way I see it, my dd can spend time with me; I love her and accept her unconditionally. Or, she could be in daycare with a wonderful person whose love could never touch the realm of my love for her...No matter how wonderful the person, it is still a cash deal. No matter how much they love the child, they are still being paid to do it. It just seems like such a bad vibe to intrust those babies for a wage for so many hours every weekday.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Faith
I just feel bad when a mom decides not to be a SAHM, just like I feel bad when a mom doesn't BF... It is just what *I* feel is a child's birthright and it shouldn't be taken away from them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Faith
I don't see at all how AP fits in with paying someone else to spend time with your child. I just don't and never will.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Faith
me wishing it was more PC to only SAH
Nothing like a little bit of re-written history. If this post was only about according sahm the respect that they so absolutely deserve then I would have been right on that bandwagon. However, in the minds of Faith, Pageta, and Mountain you can only truly give respect to sahm by denegrating other mothers, by being self righteous and condescending about the choices others have made, and by making yourself the be-all, end-all authority on how to be a "good" mother. And that sucks. If mothers continue to deal with societal issues towards mothering this way then we may as well give up now...what is the point? They don't even have to attack us anymore...we do it quite well enough to ourselves. What a shame.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laura
"Mothering" will never get the respect it deserves until all mothers learn to respect one another. It's a plain and simple fact.
post #68 of 89
Is Momma getting her needs met? Are the kids getting their needs met? If there's another parent, is he/she getting his/her needs met?

That's what matters, IMO. There's nothing intrinsically wrong or callous about being a person who doesn't get all of your needs met through parenting, and there's nothing wrong or lazy about being someone who does. If working (or school, or volunteering, or taking classes, or whatever) is what helps you feel good about who you are, do it. If not, and your famiy can do without your income, don't.

I think it's important for moms to be true to themselves.

Dar
post #69 of 89
: Can we please watch our language?

Also, I am glad none of my quotes offended. I think we all need to agree that we want the best for our children. We also want to Mother our children the best way possible for them and us.
post #70 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by urklemama
Part of that respect is not personalizing someone else's expressions of aggravation at her own situatuion. If what the OP said made you hot under the collar, maybe, just maybe that's your problem and not hers. Give her the respect of understanding that she is having a normal exasperated reaction to irritating circumstances. Give me the respect of slowing down for five minutes and thinking "ok, paycheck mamas bothers me, but maybe I'm not seeing something here." For heaven's sake, "paycheck mamas" is from FLYLADY. How can you get less elitist than Flylady?

I think it is quite clear that everyone is personalizing this. Mothering is a personal thing and I think everyone appears to be "hot under the collar" in this thread. I do/did respect that in the op Faith was have a "normal exaxperated reaction to irritating circumstances". If you were to read my other posts in this thread you might find that I was trying to validate both sides.

Also, I have no clue who Flylady is. Labels in general can be taken offensively. No matter who you are. If you knew me, you would likely read my posts differently too . That's just part of what can happen on a board where we just read words and aren't able to see the other 90% of body language. Don't get me wrong I MDC. I also like hearing others perspectives EVEN when I don't agree.

Thanks for reminding me that I might not understand where someone is coming from when they make statements such as paycheck mama b/c I don't truly know most of you. I come in
post #71 of 89
Sorry, Amy! : I will try to tone down the

post #72 of 89
Here's another thought from somebody who's been around a few of these threads and given it a lot of thought over the years.

Does anyone remember the song made into the Enjoli perfume commercials? "I can bring home the bacon, fry it up in a pan, and never let you forget you're a man! 'Cause I'm a woman...." Anybody remember "Family Ties"?

The whole society has bought into the whole thing, hook, line and sinker. I used to look down on women who chose to stay home and not "do anything" other than mother. Combined with the above, personal experience with some really lazy people (think stereotypical soap opera watching housewives), for years and years I believed it was a lazy, intellectual cop-out. Then I had friends who had babies and watched them struggle on all fronts. Then I had mine and the full impact of my idiocy hit me.

Everyone, everyone is constantly being barraged to "do more." It's not just SAHMs. It's everybody, people. I'm nearly 40 and I'm finally making time to do some scrapbooking for no other reason than because I want to. I've finally started saying 'no' to requests to volunteer, to the feeling that I need to "do something" for my professional society "because if I don't nobody else will," etc. I'm making time to read the books I want to read, not because they're going to enrich me or make me more informed but because I simply enjoy them.

I see the original intent of the OP, but I also see a tendency to judge others by her own yardstick, and really, isn't that most of the problem, as has been eloquently said above? Every single person is different, every single family is different. I agree with the spirit of the OP's post, but I disagree that it (the pressure) is directed at only SAHMs. I feel everybody feels the same type of pressure: do more, accomplish more, make more. I would wager that nearly every single mama here has felt this pressure, no matter her work/home situation.
post #73 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by tracymom

Everyone, everyone is constantly being barraged to "do more." It's not just SAHMs. It's everybody, people. I'm nearly 40 and I'm finally making time to do some scrapbooking for no other reason than because I want to. I've finally started saying 'no' to requests to volunteer, to the feeling that I need to "do something" for my professional society "because if I don't nobody else will," etc. I'm making time to read the books I want to read, not because they're going to enrich me or make me more informed but because I simply enjoy them.
Good point.

And I am doing the same things. Reading trashy novels, just for fun. I have made several scrapbooks, and I have joined a gym. And i have finally cut down some of my volunteer hours at my sons school....i still do crossing guard, but i only do the lunchroom/playground 3 days a week. Let someone else do it. After almost 18 yrs, i deserve it. Oh, and i no longer take "call" at the hospital i work for. Saying "no" sounds good and feels even better.

I have also put going for my Masters on hold. If i have to write one more paper in APA format, i will jump from my roof.
post #74 of 89
Well, I am doing something radical.
I am giving up the label WOHM.

I am a mother. Period.
My mothering is not DEFINED by the fact that I also work for a paycheck.
Yes, I have to struggle with balancing work/family responsibilities.
But that does not define how I parent.

I can just hear the screaming I am going to get.. but I think this whole SAHM/WOHM dichotomy is false.. and does nothing but divide. The emphasis on it ensures that MOTHERwork.. women's work.. will never get the respect it deserves.

Yes, I know there are many of you who find labels useful. AP, Mainstream, WOHM, SAHM whatever. Useful to turn someone else into the "other"... to make sure everyone knows you are not one of THEM.

Some of you say they are empowering somehow.. that they help you find common ground with others like you. Well I am going to have to respectfully disagree.

I will not wear my label, I am taking it off.
I will not separate myself from other women that way. I will not allow myself to be divided and conquered.

I am a mother. period. I am a mother when I am at work, I am a mother when I am at home.. I am a mother when my child is with me.. and I am still a mother when he is not.

I am doing the best I can for MY family. I assume the same of you.
I honor your choices.
I undertand that many of you here do NOT honor mine... but that is actually YOUR problem, not mine. When you choose to dishonor other mothers... you ensure that your choices will also be dishonored. You perpetuate the Mommy Wars.. you create division.. you contribute to your own isolation and devaluation. Maybe we should all take responsibility for that.. instead of pointing the finger at others. Maybe we should all look INWARD for validation. Maybe when we feel frustrated at having our motherwork devalued.. we shouldn't turn right around and say things that make others feel the same way.

The truth is, as long as we are so NEEDFUL of validation from the outside, from our screwed up society.. we will be in trouble. We have to start by validating ourselves and each other.. simply as mothers. Mothers who are doing the best for their families.

Anyway.. I know there are those of you who WILL continue to think of me as a WOHM, because you need to differentiate yourself from me in order to feel validated.
Your loss.

But I will do my best to support you anyway.
post #75 of 89
Bravo, asherah!!! I'm pretty new to MDC but have been very disappointed by all the animosity I've encountered that is centered around these labels and how they are used/abused. we're all in this together, sisters! we can't expect to be respected when we don't even respect others. just take a momend and ask yourself, Why do we care so much about what other people think? We all need a good dose of confidence and a good sense of humor and a great big pat on the back. we don't hear this very often from others, if at all, but YOU ARE DOING A WONDERFUL JOB! You are raising a child! let's not read into other people's messages too much and make false assumptions and accusations about each others lifestyles. now gather round for a big
post #76 of 89
Feeling the mama love I too loved your post asherah.
post #77 of 89
Thanks asherah! That's what I was trying to say...but you said it so elequantly (sp?). I am the first to admit I do not have a way with written words. Now this is the kind of spirit I like.
post #78 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dar
Is Momma getting her needs met? Are the kids getting their needs met? If there's another parent, is he/she getting his/her needs met?

That's what matters, IMO. There's nothing intrinsically wrong or callous about being a person who doesn't get all of your needs met through parenting, and there's nothing wrong or lazy about being someone who does. If working (or school, or volunteering, or taking classes, or whatever) is what helps you feel good about who you are, do it. If not, and your famiy can do without your income, don't.

I think it's important for moms to be true to themselves.

Dar


Yeah, what she said.
post #79 of 89
Thread Starter 
I just have a feeling this isn't going to come out right, but I will try...

I would like to thank everyone who took what I said in my OP at face value and didn't get all upset.

I admit I am confused. I have learned a *lot* here at MDC about tolerance and respect... maybe I have more to learn...

Seriously, why is it okay when a lot of us here get upset to see a friend not even try BFing, just because she didn't feel like it... But not okay for us to feel upset when a SAHM 'quits' and gets another job? I honestly don't understand that. We all agree BFing is best if at all possible, so why not SAH, if that is at all possible? Honestly, I don't understand that. Surely no one is out there argueing for formula and daycares..? We say "whatever works best for your family" or "be true to yourself" but we don't really mean it, or we would believe formula, CIO, circumcision, spanking, yelling, endless hours in a play pen, etc, would be wonderful as the family was doing the best for them and being true...
Do you see what I am saying, even if you don't agree?

Also, there is nothing wrong with my feelings from my OP. I don't go into 'working mothers' and tell them they are wrong... so I think it's rather innapropriate for non-SAHMs to come here to my SAHM thread IF they can't be supportive. I'm sure a WOHM who was the only WOHM in her area wouldn't like for me to crash her thread and be all negative.

Anyway, I just don't agree that someone can mother/raise their child if they are not with their child. It just doesn't happen like that. You simply can't care for a person you are not with. I don't think for a second that if I handed my baby off right now to someone else and went out, that I would be caring for him/mothering him/raising him/whatever when I was gone. I'm not there to comfort him, to feed him, to change him, to hold him, to know his cues like only a mommy can. That is just a fact. I don't see how that point can even be argued, but it seems like some of you are trying. Sure, I am still his mother when I am gone, but I am not *mothering* him when I am gone. I see a huge difference.

In all sencerity, none of this is meant to offend. I am just trying to explain my feelings and thoughts. I am not anti-WOHMs. My awesome MW is one, my aunt (who I love more than my own mom) worked by choice from six weeks old with both her DC, etc. But I am still allowed to have my opinion that SAH is best for DC, just like AP and BF... I wasn't attacking anyone's opinion- just society's attitude in general- about we SAHMs needing to be "more," as if there is anything that could be "more" than raising my wonderful DC.
post #80 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Faith
"Also, there is nothing wrong with my feelings from my OP. I don't go into 'working mothers' and tell them they are wrong... so I think it's rather innapropriate for non-SAHMs to come here to my SAHM thread IF they can't be supportive. I'm sure a WOHM who was the only WOHM in her area wouldn't like for me to crash her thread and be all negative."

"Anyway, I just don't agree that someone can mother/raise their child if they are not with their child. It just doesn't happen like that. You simply can't care for a person you are not with. I don't think for a second that if I handed my baby off right now to someone else and went out, that I would be caring for him/mothering him/raising him/whatever when I was gone. I'm not there to comfort him, to feed him, to change him, to hold him, to know his cues like only a mommy can. That is just a fact. I don't see how that point can even be argued, but it seems like some of you are trying. Sure, I am still his mother when I am gone, but I am not *mothering* him when I am gone. I see a huge difference." .

I am a member of this community and I will post where I see fit.
I will not be thrust out of a discussion about MOTHERING just because someone sees fit to label me a WOHM.. and set me up as "the other."
This is not a private thread.. therefore I am not "crashing" it.

What you have said is just pure ugliness. Yes, you are entitled to your opinion.. and I am entitled to tell you it is ugly, toxic and unkind. The language is couched in such judgmental absolutes:
"You simply can't care for a person you are not with."
Well, actually, I do think I am caring for my child by providing him with shelter, food and clothing, as well as love. I could not give him those things without leaving and going to work.

How sad that you are not able to simply celebrate your own choice... but must "mourn" and judge the choices of others instead.
I feel sorry for you, really. I am surprised I am not angry, but I really am not.
I feel sorry for you. Here you are, so frustrated by the fact that your own choice is devalued.. but all you can do is focus on the choices of others. You are making your world.. and your heart.. a very small place indeed.
Sad, sad sad.
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