I have to ask you Mamajustice and Sparklemom (or other educators)

[siddie]

You both mentioned in the earlier post on sahm's and daughters that you are educators and would not subject your children to the system. Why? Were the problems inherent to your individual school districts or are they everywhere? Is the private system any better? I'm curious because my ds will be kindergarten age next year. Any other educators, please reply too! I have a close friend in California who has worked in one of the poorest districts in the state who really believes in the public schools. They send their dd to school in the San Jose area but had to pay a huge amount for a house in the right district.

[Leatherette]

I am an educator. I will be sending my kids to public school. I will be volunteering there as well and will know their teachers and what is going on in the school.

We live in a big city with lots of school choice and alternative programs within the district. If I had no choice but "School X", I may feel differently.

L.

[alegna]

I am a teacher. I will be keeping my kids as far away from the school system as possible. I'm planning on homeschooling (unschooling) From what I've seen the system is a whole lot more about being a cog in the machine than LEARNING. I want my children to have a thirst for knowledge and to be thinkers. In my opinion most schools teach neither (and discourage both.) Some private schools are better. There are a few montessori programs that I would consider, but we plan to have a larger family (4-ish kids) and at ~$10,000 a year, per kid, there's no way we could afford it.

That's the short version

-Angela

[UnschoolnMa]

Educator here too I do not care for the whole school (at least in the general, mainstream sense like public schools etc) idea. Sounds contradictory I know, but my work in education was done in a very free environment where the children set their own goals and are given much respect. I also felt I was working as a voice for change on the inside.

My children are unschoolers. I do not like the forced curriculum in school, or the often negative environment. I know there are some great schools and some great teachers out there, but on the whole school just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

[dharmamama]

I am not an educator but I used to be an editor at a textbook development house that created textbooks for the big publishers (Harcourt, Glencoe, etc.). I would never in ten billion years make my kids learn from school textbooks. The absolute last consideration in creating a textbook is content. There are a million other things that come first, mainly money. There are "sensitivity standards" that, in practice, result in meaningful content being cut because it might offend someone (for example, in a world history text I worked on, the only mentioned we made of the Tibet situation was the China "annexed" Tibet and "encouraged" the Tibetans to give up their religion). The format of the book is decided first and the content is created to meet the format. There are grammatical errors that are done purposefully because the textbook companies consider some proper usages "stilted." Textbooks are marketed toward several large states and everyone else just has to come along for the ride (witness Texas recently demanding that "marital partners" be replaced with "man and woman" lest some hapless Texas child think that same-sex couples can get married). I could go one for a very long time about all the problems with textbooks, but let me just say that anyone who sends their kids to school or uses textbooks in their homeschool shouldn't be fooled into thinking that textbooks are created to give kids knowledge.

Namaste!

[jannan]

i am an educator and sent dd to a working class catholic school. i have not been thrilled , especially when she told me that the teacher won't let her use the bathroom when she needs to. i'll take care of that on monday. she is only in kindergarten. i just don't like the whole public school senerio. please see my post in TAO about substituting. there is no public school i'd send my dd to . now, ds on the other hand, i had to send to a public school for language purposes.

[moma justice]

mama justice here
a little about my educational background..b/c i feel like i have a very strong opinion and a a lot of exp to back it up:
my mom is a public school teacher and even teachs college level education courses for future teachers
i went through a highly rated teacher education program that included a lot of observing and case studies of public school class rooms all over the country
i am a product of a very poorly ran/funded wv public school system
and i have taught both through the public school system and alternative learning environments all over the country (coast to coast and north to south.......blue ribbon schools of national excellence and "red light" schools that are in danger of being shut down b/c they aren't performing even close to standard......)
also i have lots of friends and relatives that are public school teachers all over the country and we talk often about what is going on in our classrooms.

and i will NEVER send my child to a public school....

the short answer: i think it is CRIMINAL to make children sit still and listen all day long.
i think the whole aproach to teaching children is cruel and unusual punishment.
i have yet to find a public school that does not insist upon making their students sit the majority of time and be quiet the majority of the time...now a hip public school might have less sitting and listening and time wasting than others...but still the majority of your child's day will be spent in some combo of sitting, listening, and wasting time.

no

my child and her time on earth is too important to me for that!
esp when she is just 6 y.o.
yes they make you hold your pee, you can't eat if you are hungry, you can't cry if you are sad, you can't laugh if you are happy, you can't imagine, build, dream, or discuss if you feel inspired....

IMHO the public school system is MOSTLY:
1) a gov funded day care system to keep more people working in the economy
2) an assembley line of turning young bright minds into robot sheep for the SYSTEM

the over all message of the SYSTEM is shut up and do as you are told....
think: work sheets all day long in little quiet rows of unhappy silent/obedient children

i have researched the history of why we have mandatory public school systems
and can i just tell everyone that the kings of the industrial revolution had a big hand in choosing the details of our system and their intent was to have an abundance of low level workers that were proficiant in one thing only:
FOLLOWING directions!
and the system that we chose to implement (the one we still have) was modeled after the pre-nazi germany school system and their system's goal was to have students' #1 allegence be to the state (above family and god) so that they would make good little soldiers

the literacy rates of this country before and after children were forced to go to our public schools PROVE that when this country was founded the majority of the people read and debated for the fun of knowledge...look at all the great minds of our history who never went to (or had limited schooling) ben franklin, abe lincoln, george washington.....

and it is getting worse:
the test that our US army uses to qualify soldiers for service has had to be drasticaly dumbed down over the last several generations b/c the service men have become less and less educated with each generation.

the system sucks
it sucks

it is WRONG

and even the best teachers still are forced to follow a chosen curriculum and moniter bathroom breaks and noise levels and have TONS of standardized tests......and have so many students and so many tests to grade and standards to prove that they still have a hard time teaching even the chidlren who are willing to learn

and the amount of children who are willing to learn shrink with each grade

i would be happy to hook any one up with my resources where i get my info

i want my whole life to be about taking the power back and making life holy

that does not include sending my child off to be RAISED by gov ran instituion that does not even consider what is best for her ever!

not to mention that this sytem creates angry children (the system is just a part of their "creation" rather...) and that makes the classroom a kill or be killed social environment....get a bunch of well loved well fed well inspired home school kids together and you just don;t see the mean bullying and teasing that haunts the children of public school.

any questions?
i am happy to share what i know about this very important subject

[siddie]

Wow! Thank you all for your replies, this really helps me. I have always had a bad feeing about the public schools, it is nice to hear it validated with appropriate reasons by those within the system. I have always focused on test scores. Moma justice, thank you for giving me concrete information on the public schools. What do you think about private schools? Are they any better? I know they are all different. The major differences I have seen here are that they are much better off financially. The classrooms and buildings are in much better condition and they have nicer computer labs and playgrounds and music departments. The public schools here do not have a/c which makes it really tough to learn when it's 92 degrees. The private schools do have a/c. The one school I am leaning towards uses a group approach to teaching. The kids do not all sit facing the teacher, the desks are arranged in groups of 5-6 and the kids work together. They only have 1 class per grade so the kids all move up together from K-6 grade. I am going in for a second appointment to see how the teachers actually interact with the kids. Overall, the kids seem bright and happy there and the teachers have a calm and centered manner about them. I have noticed a lot of angry and bored kids inpublic schools.

I loved learning and remember feeling bored a lot in my public school. The class work was too easy for me and the teacher taught too slowly. Yet, when I went to university as an honors graduate I discovered I had not developed good study habits and ended up on academic probation. I was an A student in English at my public hs and had to take remedial Eng in college.

[carolsly]

Originally Posted by siddie

I have a close friend in California who has worked in one of the poorest districts in the state who really believes in the public schools. They send their dd to school in the San Jose area but had to pay a huge amount for a house in the right district.

My parents (dad is now retired) really believe in the California public school system too. I got the heck out of dodge at the first chance! We live in Alaska and my daughter goes to a public K class. I like the teacher, the way class is taught, the way she involves parents, and most everything about her classroom. I even met with the school psychologist (did an interview with him for my college class) and I even like him. Anyway...California has this problem...where there is a poor community...there is a poor school district...where there is a poor school district..there is mediocre education. California (the only state I really know about) has a hard time distributing monies effectively. I don't like their system, and I won't live there, won't send my kids to public or private for that matter school there. You know what's really funny...my parents thought the school system was so great but sent my sister to a private Catholic high school (the best in the area) and I went to a local public HS. Guess who got the better education? That would be my sister! I am having to pick up the horrible pieces of my education experience and start from scratch. UCK. I am not dumb!, but I sure felt like it until I was about 30. I know I'm smart and that the school sucked. My parents still swear by the public school system..and hated it when I homeschooled my dd last year (she missed the K cutoff and I couldn't afford private Preschool for another year). It's funny how people who work for the public systems swear how well they work, but can't show you proof!

:

[maya44]

Wow, its too bad that you guys have such bad schools.

Where LOVE our schools.

The kids do NOT do alot of "sitting and listening". They do a fair amount of standing and working. Like last week, they were working on :

fractions and they gathered around the teacher's desk while he made bread.

Then in small groups they worked on making their own bread.

They do learn the basic facts of math, but even then the teacher tries to make it fun. After you have memorized your mulitplication tables (and lets face it, there is no other way to learn this), they can volunteer to be held upside down and recite their facts! I know it sounds weird but the kids love it.

Last week, they all also spent time reading a book of their choice and then gave a "press conference" as the character and had to anwer questions from the other kids.

I personally can't imagine doing any of this at home, so obviously I was not made to homeschool, but my kids LOVE school and so do I!!!!!

BTY,

If they need to go to the bathroom, they get a card from their desk and put it on top and then they leave (so the techer knows where they went). They don't have to ask!

And yes this is a regular public school.

[UnschoolnMa]

maya43 wrote:
Wow, its too bad that you guys have such bad schools.

Just to clarify, my opinion about school isn't about specific schools or school districts... it's just about school itself. I get asked if we unschool because our local schools are bad, and I have to say that I have no idea about our local schools at all. Just the fact that there would be a curriculum that has already been predecided on that every kid will follow is enough for us to pass it by.

fractions and they gathered around the teacher's desk while he made bread.
Then in small groups they worked on making their own bread.

That's super cool! We do this at home too

They do learn the basic facts of math, but even then the teacher tries to make it fun. After you have memorized your mulitplication tables (and lets face it, there is no other way to learn this)

On this I must completely and totally disagree! Many people do not ever memorize the multiplication tables, yet they fully know how to arrive at the answer of a multiplication problem. The process and formula is at least as good as the memorization, IMO.

they can volunteer to be held upside down and recite their facts! I know it sounds weird but the kids love it.

This would be fun Songs can be fun for math learning too.

I personally can't imagine doing any of this at home, so obviously I was not made to homeschool, but my kids LOVE school and so do I!!!!!

See we actually do/have done this sort of thing at home, but if you and the kids love your school that is all that matters. I say go with what works.

[maya44]

Originally Posted by UnschoolnMa

maya43 wrote:
They do learn the basic facts of math, but even then the teacher tries to make it fun. After you have memorized your mulitplication tables (and lets face it, there is no other way to learn this)

On this I must completely and totally disagree! Many people do not ever memorize the multiplication tables, yet they fully know how to arrive at the answer of a multiplication problem. The process and formula is at least as good as the memorization, IMO.
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Um, what "formula" would do this????? Adding 7 eight times???? That is going to take a long time. I just don't understand what you mean. I can't imagine not knowing this.

I mean, there are not alot of things that need to be memorized, but i think this is THE one. And since it takes just a few hours over a few weeks to get this down and then have this info at your fingertips for life, I dont' see what the problem with it is.

[alegna]

Oh there are tons of formulas to get to math facts. Maybe you need to know 7x8 hmmm, don't remember that, but I know 7x7 or 7x9 (nines are easy) or 8x5 (fives are easy) and can figure from there. Personally I CAN NOT memorize. My brain just doesn't work that way, but I'm great at math. I can't stand people who insist that you must memorize to do math. Nothing is further from the truth

Sorry, sore spot there- in college the prof we had for basically how to teach math INSISTED that you could not be successful in math without memorizing- I raised my hand and told him he was wrong... he still hasn't forgiven me...

-Angela

[maya44]

Originally Posted by alegna

Oh there are tons of formulas to get to math facts. Maybe you need to know 7x8 hmmm, don't remember that, but I know 7x7 or 7x9 (nines are easy) or 8x5 (fives are easy) and can figure from there. Personally I CAN NOT memorize. My brain just doesn't work that way, but I'm great at math. I can't stand people who insist that you must memorize to do math. Nothing is further from the truth

Sorry, sore spot there- in college the prof we had for basically how to teach math INSISTED that you could not be successful in math without memorizing- I raised my hand and told him he was wrong... he still hasn't forgiven me...

-Angela

If one has a problem memorizing than its really not worth it, it misses the whole point if you have to struggle to memorize to try to do it, since the whole point is to do something faster.

I can absolutely understand not doing it if its a struggle. But from my teaching experience about 70 percent of kids can memorize the facts fairly easily and then BOOM they are done for life. So why wouldn't you do it. My dd's all memorized their math tables in about two weeks (working at it a half hour per day). That means with the use of five hours they did not have to go through life bothering with trying to work out a formula.

[FireWithin]

I am a teacher of the deaf. I have taught middle school and highschool.
Since I've been home with my DS, I have tutored in the evenings.
We plan on homeschooling. As a teacher I was struck by how many learning opportunities were lost because of the structure of the classroom and the school.
Maybe I was a lousy teacher and I am feeling defensive, but I couldn't do everything my kids needed because of the class: assemblies, waiting in line, paperwork (endless IEP, report cards), tests, grades (I HATE grades), textbooks, required work that the kids weren't interested in, the awful socializing and my inability to stop all of the bullying and negative peer pressure. I wasn't able to get to all of my kids when they needed me. I couldn't teach them what they wanted, when they wanted.

Please don't think we did only drudgerous work. I worked hard on planning exciting things, but it wasn't enough. THe parents, students and upper educators thought it was, but I saw everything that was lacking.

As I learn more about homeschooling I am struck by how much of it is just a child discovering his world with an adult lending support and guidance. THey learn what they want to learn, when they feel passionate about it. THat is simply not possible in a traditional classroom.

Even with all of her knowledge, college education, materials, motivation, and passion, a teacher can't do everything in the class that a child can do on his own with the help of parental support, a library card and a unsquashed passion for learning.

[Dar]

If you don't set out to memorize them but play around with arithmetic when you want to, and if you have the kind of brain that memorizes easily, you'll probably memorize them without even trying. That saves you from 5 hours of boring stuff, anyway.

How often, in real life, do you need to know a multiplication fact really fast? Not very, IME. If you're working on some algebra or something, you can keep a calculator of multiplication chart next to you for reference.

And Punished By Rewards holds true even if the reward is being held upside down.

I'm also a former teacher and current unschooler. I also doing some subbing in our local schools, which reminds me every time that my daughter will never go there...

Dar

[alegna]

yeah, what Dar said
I'm scrolling down, thinking about how to put it into words that that 5 hours is a total waste, a pain, and teaching kids that learning is boring and bam! she already said it for me...

There is no one right way to learn anything. The school system is set up to teach one right way (or if you're REALLY lucky 3-4 right ways) A real learner can come up with a hundred ways to do something.

-Angela

[joesmom]

Originally Posted by moma justice

...you can't eat if you are hungry, you can't cry if you are sad, you can't laugh if you are happy, you can't imagine, build, dream, or discuss if you feel inspired....

I am not an educator in the strict sense of the word- I am home/unschooling my son but I have never been to college or worked in the education field.

I had to respond to this quote though because my nephew is in 1st grade & will NOT cry. He fell off the steps here last year (in kindergarten) & I could tell it hurt him. We were talking about how it is ok to cry but he said they told him at school not to cry.

Regarding the times tables, I learned them in, I think, 3rd grade. I don't think I will force Joe to learn them. He will learn them the same way he is learning to add. He used to have to count to recognize there were two, three or four apples in a group, now he can tell by looking. He can tell me 2+2 without adding on his fingers. I can tell you 32+32=64, not because I memorized it specifically but because I have added those numbers often enough to just KNOW.

People with a schoolish mindset will never understand NOT teaching times tables or state capitals. I don't think my parents or family realizes yet just how little actual "schoolwork" Joe will be doing. My mom commented on my younger nephew who is 4 & in HeadStart, "of course you know that, you are smart, you are in school now."

If Joe went to school, he, like my nephews, would be in the same county that I went to school in. Our school system is great. I would still not consider sending him.

[maya44]

Here are the thing that I love about my kids school that I can't imagine how I'd recreate:

1. Learning how to "live" with people who are really different than they are. Our school has "specical needs" program. My kids interact on an everday basis with kids who can't see or hear or walk or talk. They have learned that these people are part of the community. They have become friends with them or learned how to help others who need them. They have learned that sometimes the needs of others are greater than their own.

2. Langauge and Cultural awareness. Their Dual Language Class is taught in both Spanish and English and they interact with kids from Hispanic cultures. I don't speak Spanish so I could not teach it to them. Sure I could just put them in a class, but there is no way they would develop the fluency they have by living and breathing the language.


3. Cross-cirriculum based learning. The school play this year for my middle dd was called "World Stories." Each child picked a plant, animal, or country. In social studies and science they researched their area, in english class they worked on writing the play, in music they wrote lyrics and melodies.

Sure, I could have done the learning part and put them in a play somewhere, but it would have been very difficult (for me, maybe not you homeschooling pro's ) to replicate this experience (and this is only one example)

These are but a few examples. For some really dedicate mama's I can see how homeschooling would be great. But my kids would miss out on too much that is important to me.

My kids really enjoy the rules of school. It has alway been my belief that some people were born to love rules and others were born to hate them. Our family happens to fall in the LOVE category, so that is why school is right for us.

BTY, my kids have NO textbooks and I use my mulitplication skill everyday in my job.

[siddie]

Maya43, whta kind of a school do your kids go to? How did you find it? Thanks