Stupid but it bugs me. - Page 2

[Missy]

I taught special education for 12 years and, on parents' night, NONE of the parents showed up. Many of them wouldn't show up for IEP or eligibility meetings and sometimes I'd have to send paperwork via certified mail. Sometimes I would go to their home and sit down with them and discuss the IEP.

However, I would never penalize a student for his parents' lack of involvement. And these were legal documents that required signatures, not a homework paper trial that is, frankly, unnecessary.

A signature on a homework packet doesn't tell you if the parent sat down with his child at the end of a long day and talked to him about his work and read to him. Or if the parent just scribbled a signature on the paper at 5:30 in the morning in a sleepy haze. It tells you nothing and, by signing the packet before it's graded, it tells the parent nothing. So, um...ultimately, what's the point?

Missy

[lauren]

As a parent who has to sign son's homework book each night, I can look at it both ways. The teacher signs in the book to make sure my ds has written down the correct homework. After he comes home and does the homework, I sign off to say he has done his homework. I don't necessarily look at it, because he has usually been sitting here conversing with me about it throughout the process. What I see happening here is that the teacher is trying to build good habits in my son-- to carefully record what the homework is, and to make sure it gets done and someone is aware of it. These are good habits to build for later in life, and I don't see it as though I am checking up on him, or doing something to please the teacher. Yes, sometimes it is a pain, when I am nursing the baby and he's sticking his homework book in front of me to sign, etc..... But overall, I think I get what the teacher is trying to instill.

On the other hand, I know he gets a "check" if I don't sign it. (3 checks and you can get a detention). Now the problem I see with this, is that he is really good at remembering, but a couple of times he has laid it out for me and I have forgotten to sign it. (mommy sieve brain!) I don't think he should be penalized for that, but on the other hand, it has made him more persistent about me signing it. I wouldn't want him to miss recess over it or anything. The system seems designed to tackle kids who really have very little structure in their lives at home (i.e. neglectful parents) to bring this problem out. Perhaps if they get it under control through their own initiative in 4th grade this might help, but I'm not sure.

Rambling thoughts. I guess I always try to see things in the bigger picture.

[AmandasMom]

nak

This thread has reinforced our decision to homeschool our 4 year old. I swear school was different when I was in school. I'm 37, so I was in elementary school in the 70s and high school in the early 80s. Parents never had to sign for anything except field trips and sex education. School now days just doesn't sound like much fun, and I know that my daughter would just wilt in such a harsh and structured environment. Punishing a child for a parents mistake, hummmp~

[Britishmum]

Originally Posted by chfriend

Ahh, jannan, thank you. I've lurked a bit on this thread and was surprised to see it active again. Dp and I have struggled with our decision to homeschool our very sensitive 4 year old. Your post helps to remind me why I cannot trust her to a first grade teacher assigned by the school, even if that teacher considers herself AP. I appreciate your candor...that you would deliberately be cruel to a child to enforce a documentation procedure you invented or use bribery to get between a child and her/his parent.

IME Jannans approach would not be used by many teachers. I would have no problem signing something like this for my child, even if I thought it was silly. To be honest, imo there are far more things more important to get upset about wehn it comes to my child's education than a teacher's individual system and approach to getting parents involved and children in habits that they need to use later.

I would never have rewarded a child for a parents signing, or punished them for a lack of one. NEVER. And I dont know of any other teacher I worked with who would have done so.

As a teacher, though, I'd have been irritated by a parent who wanted to take up my time and energy debating something like this. Being a teacher is hard work - incredibly so. It is increasingly stressful, and it often feels like you can never please anyone, parents included. I have so many stories of working my butt off to help someone's child, and then getting them come in to complain about somethng that was really not a big deal - gosh, if they can sign for a field trip, sign for having seen the homework. Dont' waste my time and energy debating something like this.

Just being honest here. A teacher's life is often truly a thankless one - I dont think there are many other jobs where you'd put in your life and soul, and only ever get criticism, both public and private. It can be terribly disheartening.

And wow, after 8 years out the profession, I can read criticisms and generalizations here and it still stings. Crazy, huh - but these are real people who generally care deeply about your children. If they do something you consider silly, look at the overall job thet are doing, and try to go easy.

[mamatowill]

just my 2 cents

I am a teacher and I would like the parents to sign the child's planner every day. At the beginning of the year I rewarded students with a sticker if they brought it back signed or initialled. My point is to help the student to develop responsibility for their learning. I send home notes on behaviour in the agenda and this allows me to know that the parent saw it since kids like to hide bad news. I do not punish them for not having it signed.

The other side as a teacher is- how about getting in trouble with a parent because I didn't initial the homework. The child got into trouble for it. This is after repeated explaining that I don't mark homework- just look at it. So now because I don't have the time or energy to argue I have to put a mark on the paper to placate parents (who probably did the homework anyways). :LOL

[sha_lyn]

I understand the teachers reasons. Sure the signature doesn't guarantee that the parent even looked at the work, but at least it shows the parent at least paid some attention.

Sometimes it is hard for those of us who are involved in our children's education/lives to understand the why. However I really feel there are valid reasons for such policies.

Several yrs ago when DS was still in public school we had a neighbor who's son was very behind. I remember the mom fighting to get him into head start because he didn't know his ABC's colors etc. I thought she was being proactive in his education.

A couple of yrs later I learned the real story from a brief conversation with the mother. The parents were of the opinion it was not up to teach their child anything at all. He failed K and she was furious. She said it was all the schools fault because it was not her job to teach him. She said that teachers get paid to teach so that it their job, not the parents.


When this boy was in 1st grade I knew the mom of one of his classmates. This mom volunteered in the classroom weekly. she said that apparently the parents never ever looked at anything the child brought home. Report cards, field trip permissions slips, weekly agendas etc were never ever signed. this friend said she sat down and helped clean out his back pack one day. There were papers in there that were months old that had never been filled out.

[jannan]

chfriend, i gaurantee that your child would only sit on the bench a few times then the packet would be signed............... and sitting on the bench is not cruel...........give me a break!

[chfriend]

Originally Posted by jannan

if a child brought back the packet unsigned i'd call the parent and politely asked them to sign it. if they were being ridiculous and not signing i'd have your child sit on the bench and not participate in recess. yes, it is cruel but i bet after a while the homework packet would come back signed.or i would bribe your child with a sticker........

jannan, here is your post. You stated you believed it was cruel. My child would not sit on your bench. You would never be my child's teacher because I will not expose my child to this.

If enforcing your perceived authority over another adult is this important to you, I can imagine that enforcing your authority over the children in your care is also quite important to you.

Britishmum, I completely agree with you regarding many teachers, staff and administrators. Dp has a teaching degree and taught children before she became a teacher of adult students. I taught preschool and worked for years with autistic and developmentally delayed children. My family is primarily teachers. Some of them are amazing. Some of them are more invested in their authority than in caring and teaching. Some of the ones who care have to guard against burn-out from administrators who don't.

My family is very good at advocating while showing respect for the teachers, staff and administrators. In this case, however, the teacher is failing to show respect for the parent and the parent's methods of interacting with her children. And to force compliance on an adult beyond her jurisdiction, this teacher is willing to bribe or punish a young child. That level of compliance is unnecessary for effective classroom management and beyond the balliwick of the teacher.

My child is gifted and energetic with sensory issues and deep sensitivities. I am planning to homeschool because of the risks involved with exposing my child to teachers who are like jannan describes herself. While this may be fine for many children, it would crush mine.

It's helpful to me to be reminded of this because it's so tempting at times to fantasize about sending her off to learn and grow and develop in a wonderful warm group of adults and children. Then I read here and remember the realities.

I am truly grateful to jannan for reinforcing that lesson.

[captain optimism]

Originally Posted by jannan

if a child brought back the packet unsigned i'd call the parent and politely asked them to sign it. if they were being ridiculous and not signing i'd have your child sit on the bench and not participate in recess. yes, it is cruel but i bet after a while the homework packet would come back signed.or i would bribe your child with a sticker........

Well, I would never have thought of not signing the homework, because I am a good doobie and always do what I am supposed to do with regard to schoolwork. I was a student from age 4-22 (nursery through college) and then again from age 23-30 (grad school), and then a teacher on the college level for four years, plus stints as a tutor and Hebrew school teacher. That's 25 out of 38 years in a school setting, so I am totally acculturated to schools and their ways.

But, if I found out that my child's teacher punished students because their parents didn't sign homework, I would probably attempt to pull my child from the class, but not without writing a letter to the principal and superintendent of schools recommending punitive action or at least a reprimand of the teacher. Because that is totally unethical and has nothing to do with appropriate teaching.

[Kari_mom]

Originally Posted by jannan

if a child brought back the packet unsigned i'd call the parent and politely asked them to sign it. if they were being ridiculous and not signing i'd have your child sit on the bench and not participate in recess. yes, it is cruel but i bet after a while the homework packet would come back signed.or i would bribe your child with a sticker........

jannan, I am curious. Have you had success with this? By success I am imagining that you have seen grades improve or behavior changes in the classroom. Are these recalcitrate parents who you so strongly encourage to sign homework papers more likely to schedule and attend conferences? Since you won't accept unsigned homework, I would imagine that you would not see a change in how much homework is completed. I was also wondering if you could tell me what grade you teach, sorry if I missed it.

And thanks for calling me ridiculous. I am fully supportive of school policies that make sense to me. Sorry, parent signatures on homework before it is turned in still does not make sense to me. This thread is really your chance to convince me, rather than dismiss me.

Originally Posted by sha_lyn

When this boy was in 1st grade I knew the mom of one of his classmates. This mom volunteered in the classroom weekly. she said that apparently the parents never ever looked at anything the child brought home. Report cards, field trip permissions slips, weekly agendas etc were never ever signed. this friend said she sat down and helped clean out his back pack one day. There were papers in there that were months old that had never been filled out.

sha_lyn, I am skeptical that a homework signature policy would change these parents, but would make life more difficult for a child who already must feel somewhat disregarded and unimportant to his parents. Any homework this child does complete should, in my opinion, be received with joy by the teacher instead of with punishment, as he is doing it on his own and showing incredible responsibility for doing so.

Originally Posted by mamatowill

I am a teacher and I would like the parents to sign the child's planner every day. At the beginning of the year I rewarded students with a sticker if they brought it back signed or initialled. My point is to help the student to develop responsibility for their learning. I send home notes on behaviour in the agenda and this allows me to know that the parent saw it since kids like to hide bad news. I do not punish them for not having it signed.

The other side as a teacher is- how about getting in trouble with a parent because I didn't initial the homework. The child got into trouble for it. This is after repeated explaining that I don't mark homework- just look at it. So now because I don't have the time or energy to argue I have to put a mark on the paper to placate parents (who probably did the homework anyways).

mamatowill, I absolutely do not have a problem signing off on behavior reports. Our teachers handle those separately from homework. Also, I appreciate some sign, a smilie or a check, from the teacher on homework or I other papers. Otherwise I can't tell if my first grader actually turned the paper in or not. Sorry a parent yelled at you though.

I am still not clear, however, how the signature of a parent teaches the CHILD to become responsible for THEIR OWN learning. I thought I was teaching this to my children by encouraging them to work independently on their homework, including returning it to school. I am of course always available to help and review their work.

lauren, you've described my situation perfectly. My son invariably wants me to sign homework when the babe needs nursed....

chfriend and captain optimism, .

[jannan]

i teach first in a childrens center . it is basically after school care with an academic slant. yes, i do send home notes and a weekly math challenge that i want back signed. how hard is it to sign a paper? i don't understand why this is a major issue? aren't there bigger issues within the public school that your (the general "your) energy is more worthy of? have i seen grades improve? not necessarily, but i've seen packets signed and that is my goal... i want parents to have to do something, not just send their children to school each day.If it is not signed I don't accept it. i feel sorry for parents who want their children to only be exposed to people or adults they approve of. i guess if you homeschooled and lived in la- la land it would work, but i believe it is a losing battle.

[Kari_mom]

Britishmum, I hope you don't feel that I am down on teachers. I do think they have a thankless job most days and I do think the original intent of this thread was to vent here about something stupid that bothers me. It still bothers me, I have found some ways to handle it, I haven't talked to the teacher about it.

But I also think that I can be supportive of teachers without being required to agree with everything they say and do. And a discussion like this can be useful for both sides.

[taz925]

Originally Posted by jannan

have i seen grades improve? not necessarily, but i've seen packets signed and that is my goal... i want parents to have to do something, not just send their children to school each day.

Okay what purpose does this attitude serve? I truely do not understand. Seems to just put a wedge between parents and teachers when we should be working together to educate our children.

[lauren]

Gentle reminder to speak respectfully to one another.....

[Missy]

Originally Posted by jannan

i teach first in a childrens center . it is basically after school care with an academic slant. yes, i do send home notes and a weekly math challenge that i want back signed. how hard is it to sign a paper? i don't understand why this is a major issue? aren't there bigger issues within the public school that your (the general "your) energy is more worthy of? have i seen grades improve? not necessarily, but i've seen packets signed and that is my goal... i want parents to have to do something, not just send their children to school each day.If it is not signed I don't accept it. i feel sorry for parents who want their children to only be exposed to people or adults they approve of. i guess if you homeschooled and lived in la- la land it would work, but i believe it is a losing battle.

I am completely bewildered.

First, I would be mad as heck if my child's classroom teacher blatantly admitted that the goal was simply to "give parents something to do". In this case, I would bet that these parents have PLENTY to do at the end of the day. I've had the misfortune of working in child care centers and, by the time parents are able to pick their kids up, they need time together to do things like read and cuddle and talk. They don't need a useless assignment that has nothing to do with improving their child's academic performance, even if it is just signing a piece of paper. When my special ed. documents, required by law and necessary for a child's education, weren't returned, I didn't take it out on the child. I talked with the parent. I made the effort to go to their houses and meet with them--because it was in the best interest of their child. Frankly, sometimes there was so much crap going on in their lives, they couldn't even take the time to think about that signature unless I was right there talking with them. I would never have forced "busy work" on them.

Secondly, there are far bigger issues in school. And that's where the parents' energy should be focused. Not on an admittedly useless piece of paper.

Third, even my kids, who are now homeschooled, have to deal with people I don't necessarily like or approve of. However, I would never let my child's education fall dependant on someone I don't trust or approve of. That would be a big part of why they're homeschooled. I taught in the public school system. I don't trust it.

Missy

[captain optimism]

Originally Posted by jannan

i feel sorry for parents who want their children to only be exposed to people or adults they approve of. i guess if you homeschooled and lived in la- la land it would work, but i believe it is a losing battle.

This is a very tricky question that you raise. In my first semester teaching in the university, I taught a class in Jewish ethics. Not long into the semester, one of the students told me that in her Jewish day school, a teacher humiliated a student for not bringing the right lunch. The context of her anecdote was a discussion of the Jewish ethics around speech, and we had been talking about how the rabbis considered embarassing someone to be as bad as murder. My student had completely rejected Judaism because she saw this teacher punish a student by making her sit on a special chair because her mom packed the wrong lunch.

(Which is, you must admit, not all that different from making a student sit on a special bench because her mom didn't sign her homework. Though I assume that the students on your bench aren't alone, and they aren't sitting there in full view of the other students. I hope.)

If this is a problem in a religious school setting, it's a much bigger problem in a public school setting. What children learn in a Catholic school where the nuns beat them is that they don't like Catholicism. What they learn in a public school where they are punished unfairly is that they don't like school, because there is no brand name to assign to the teacher's behavior.

Further: absolutely, I would not want my child to be taught by someone who didn't behave ethically in front of them. I could live with a teacher whose personal ethics were shaky but whose professional ethics were impeccable. This isn't only about approval though, but about what my child would learn from this person. A teacher isn't only teaching a textbook, they are modelling behavior.

Further than that: As you must know by now, many people on MDC do live in la-la land.

[Kirsten]

All I can say is pick your battles!

OK, anyone who has read my long-winded posts before knows I've never kept it to one line....

I have read all the posts in this thread and am still shaking my head. It is five seconds once a week, right? No one is asking for your social security number or for you to run around the block naked or pledge allegiance to George W (now that would be worth picking as a battle!)

My dd1 is in third grade and has a homework binder that comes home on Mondays and is due on Fridays. Thursday night or Friday morning, I sign where it asks for my signature. Teacher knows I've seen it.

If you (OP and/or generic you) are so into fighting "the man" that you want to buck the system at something so trivial as five seconds of your time - and in regards to something that makes your child feel stress for your own want to be a free spirit - I just don't understand that. If you don't want to sign your driver's license or mortgage application or whatever, that is up to you and the consequences are yours. This is your child. Asking for a signature once a week on homework is not unreasonable. I think it is great that you (OP) are involved in school by volunteering, being room mom, etc. But isn't part of being a parent modeling to our kids how to pick our battles? How to get along with others and be reasonable and compromise? Sure, some things are worth drawing a line in the sand for - but this?

[sphinx]

Originally Posted by Missy

However, I would never penalize a student for his parents' lack of involvement.

I agree with this.
Jannan i can't imagine taking recess away from a child, especially for something they have no control over!

[Kari_mom]

Kirsten, perhaps you didn't see this post.

To update, I am signing my son's homework packet when we first sit down together to work on it. I have also found out that it is just a 'thing' with this first grade teacher, none of the other first grade teachers ask a parent to sign off on homework, just the weekly folder that comes home. I haven't asked her about it because I have had tougher issues to work out with her.

I think I have great perspective on this problem. It isn't a biggie, it is a small peeve and I am treating it as such IMO. My son is somewhat aware of how I feel. I think I am modeling that it is ok to question authority and have your own opinions as long as you do it respectfully.

My comments about my signature being my own property and such are simply looking at the broader picture, the authority a teacher has over the parents of his/her students. We have also spent a good amount of effort discussing whether the child should be punished for the parent's actions or inactions. Sometimes little things are indicative of bigger problems, yk?

The discussion on this thread leads me to believe that it would be easier on teachers, students and parents if teachers did not request or demand signatures on homework to be turned in. I haven't seen a strong arguement that it adds value to parent/teacher communication, IMO. If it wasn't asked for, none of us would have to worry about doing it, tracking it, whatever. I do agree and have always agreed with parental signoff for behavior reports.

[Kari_mom]

jannan, you seem passionate about involving parents in their child's education. I think the method you have hit upon, mandating parent signed homework with consequences for the child, might meet your immediate goal of making parents do something more than just send their kids to school but will hurt your cause in the long run.