when you teach your child something and the rest of the world doesn't do that

[USAmma]

What do you do when you teach your dc something, and the rest of the world doesn't follow those rules? My dd is going to be 4 soon and she has SID and had to work very, very hard to control herself. I'm so proud of the progress she's made lately. However she's not rewarded very often and it's leaving me with a sense of sadness and frustration.

First example: She used to be pretty aggressive around other kids and would shove them or grab a toy out of their hands. I've been working on teaching her to ask nicely for a turn. She went up to a kid on the playground who was on one of those bouncing/rocking animals and she asked if she could have a turn. The child was old enough to respond (he was about 5 I think) but he completely ignored her. She asked again and he again ignored her. She looked pretty sad about it and waited and waited. Finally shoved him off and said, "It's my turn now."

Second example: We were at a friend's house and Abi was playing with a toy. Her 7 year old grabbed the toy from Abi and refused to give it back. She was stunned and hurt and came to me to tell me about it and asked me to make him give it back. I had told her not to grab things, but to come and ask me for help so that's what she was doing. The friend made her son give it back but later said that her son was irritated that Abi was a tattletale. The friend said normally she justs lets the kids work out their differences, and that the one who tattles is usually the last one to get help.

Third example: Abi has a hard time making friends, and I have been taking her to the playground to be aroudn other kids. It takes a lot of courage for her to go up to a child and ask if she can play with them. 3/4 of the time the kids completely ignore her. I don't know what's wrong with kids. The look on Abi's face is so sad, and she slumps her shoulders and looks like she's about to cry. Esp. if she has asked 2-3 kids in a row to play with her and they don't.

In all of these situations Abi is really trying to do the right thing. In her mind, there are rules and if she does X than the other child should do Y. But it almost never works out that way. How will she ever learn to keep being nice, when nice doesn't get her anywhere?

Darshani

[famousmockngbrd]

Oh, Darshani, my heart goes out to you and your DD. It hurts so much when other people don't treat our kids well. My DS saw a little girl about 5 years old walking down the street with a big red ball the other day, and he told me he wanted to play with her. I said he should go over to her and ask her to play. So he ran to the edge of the yard and said, in the CUTEST voice, "Do you want to come play with me?" And she just kept on walking, totally ignoring him, as he stood there looking wistfully after her. I thought my heart would break into a million pieces. I yelled out to DS, "I don't think she heard you," and thank goodness the little girl turned around and said, "What?" I said, "DS wants to play with you," and she said "OK" and came back and played with him for a little while. I was extremely relieved.

Sorry, I'm sure that little story wasn't very helpful, because it sounds like the kids you are referring to DO hear your DD, they're just ignoring her. Do you think maybe they just lack the social skills to respond? Could it be shyness masquerading as rudeness? Do you notice a certain playground protocol - maybe they aren't used to kids asking them to play, maybe they usually just kind of join in?

I don't really have any good advice to offer you, just commiseration. I often wish the world would actually live up to all the great things I am trying to teach DS.

[Dragonfly]

That's so tough. Your poor little girl.

We have this happen sometimes, too, and ds just looks so heartbroken. It's so upsetting when there's not much you can do to make it work for them. Sometimes I can offer him an alternative suggestion about how to go about getting what he wants. If he'll try it (that's a big if), it might work or it might not. Usually all I can really do is empathise and offer him hugs. At least then he learns that where there isn't kindness from strangers there is, at least, love from his familiars.

We also talk about his feelings and how it's very disappointing when people don't respond the way you want them to. I try to think of times that it has worked out and remind him of those so he remembers that the present moment isn't indicative of every time.

Sucks, doesn't it?

ETA: About your second example, with your friend - have you talked to her about what you are trying to do with Abi? If she knows that the alternative is aggression toward her child, then she might be more respectful of Abi's "tattling."

[Marsupialmom]

The first one could be the little boy's shyness or he was being rude. I have been in this situation with children. That is when I speak up/for them. Ussually the child will listen.

I would stay away from that friend. At those kids ages working it out without supervission, IMO, is stupid.

[takati]

Not easy

Hello

You replied one of my post before about kids being smart or gifted (by the way I like you're positive way of seing the life).

My daugther is smart (or gifted, or just herself...) and she loves everybody. Today she hugged the people in the elevator... One lady who said... "I am not your mom" and one guy who said, in an unconfortable voice... "she is really friendly" (but it sounds like... can you please put a leash on that child, she touched me)

So I have to teach her not to be kind... not to be friendly... I have to teach her to be like everybody : to shut up in the elevator.

And this is the same story everywhere... grocery shopping, playgroups...

So sometimes I feel the same way than you... Sorry no answers to your questions.

Takati

PS: my daugther turned 3 last July

[PumpkinSeeds]

Darshani,
My son sounds similar to your daughter. I also am encouraging him to ask for help because he tends to use his body in aggressive ways. I never thought of it as "tattling".

One thing I will say for that particular incident is that when your daughter is playing with the older friend (my ds also has an older friend) is that you really need to be right there at all times. And while your friend lets her kids "work things out" your daughter is still very young for that and with SID you don't want her to feel like she needs to resort to aggressiveness to feel *heard* by the older kids (we are having this exact problem).

[Linda KS]

I'm so sorry. We've had major issues at parks too and it is so frustrating.

I totally disagree with your "friend" who felt your DD was a "tattletale." What was she supposed to do? She had used her words and they hadn't worked. Was she supposed to be a doormat and just let him take things away from her, or was she supposed to kick him in the shins? She is 3 and he is 7 and the mom wasn't really annoyed with her child for behaving like a bully? Ugggggg.

One thing I have told my kids is that the Budda said, "All people teach me how to behave, some show me what to do, and some show me what not to do."

Are you guys in any activities like an art class or story time at the library or anything? May be you could watch the other moms and kids and pick out somebody that would might make a nice friend and then set something up with them.

[Dar]

I think encouraging kids to work it out is great when their about the same age or social ability. Three year olds generally need a lot of help still; most seven year olds can at leats give it a try. When I sub I usually ask the kids (lots of first grade) if someone is in danger, and if they tried at least 2 times to resolve it themelves. Then I'll help, but generally otherwise I won't. There are some exceptions - some kids who need extra help - but usually it works. With first graders.

As far as playing with kids at the park, even at that age there's a pretty amazingly sophisticated social system at work. As I recall, going up to a kid and asking to play with them wasn't the "right" way. Generally, kids would sort of hang out in proximity for a while and check each other out, and then one would come up to the other and comment on the game in some way, like, "I could be the nextdoor neighbor" or "If we both push it can go really high" or whatever pertains to the task at hand. if you're trying to teach your child how to make friends at the park, I'd go with that sort of method.

One other things - I've noticed that a lot of small children are hard to understand at that age, to strangers anyway, although their mothers are used to their speech and can interpret without thinking about it. I do see kids sometimes ignoring another child because they don't understand the words and aren't sure what to do. Could that be happening, do you think?

Dar

[sunnmama]

Darshani,
My dd (also soon 4) has very similar behavioral challenges! I can relate a bunch to this thread.

Originally Posted by USAmma

The child was old enough to respond (he was about 5 I think) but he completely ignored her.

In this case, I can turn it around and see my dd as the one rocking on the horse and ignoring the child asking for a turn. Not because she hasn't been taught better---because she has. But because she is shy, and (separate issue) probably doesn't want to give the other child a turn, and is freaking out that she is going to have to take turns. When I see this situation (either way--her asking or her ignoring), I will step in and facilitate.

With the tattling thing--people have such different pov's on that one. For kids like yours and mine (who are struggling with controlling aggression), it is clearly MUCH better for them to come get help than to go with their natural iclinations! I was so proud of dd this past week because she brought a little (fake) mouse to the playground and shared it with her friend. Then she asked for it back, and friend would not give it back (friend has definitely been taught, but kids don't always act the way we teach them, ya know?). What I saw/heard from the bench was dd sort of going after friend and sounding frantic. So I ran up (because I was sure she was being physically aggressive), but she was *pleading*--with words!--for friend to give it back. "Please! Will you PLEASE! give back my mouse!?!?!" I was so happy that she was not hitting, but also sad for her that the "right" way (words) was not working for her Friend's mom stepped in and saved the day by giving friend her own stuffed animal from the car

About making friends:
Dar, thank you so much for that explanation of playground etiquette! I have been worried about dd, cause she has few skills to approach other children. She does it, but very awkwardly, and they usually look at her strangely
We will work on this approach

[USAmma]

Thank you so much for all your replies!! I love the Buddha teaching and will have to make that part of our homeschooling day.

Thanks also for the tips on how to act on the playground. I was not a very social kid and of course it's been awhile since I was on the playground. I have to coach dd with social skills and will just encourage her to go and play next to other kids in the future, instead of asking to play with them. I know that kids form cliques very early in life, and I know that's what is happening sometimes.

As far as the kid on the animal not hearing her-- my dd has very clear speech and I could hear her from about 20 feet away so I know the boy heard her. But so be it. I know things like that happen. It's just that these kinds of things seem to happen all the time to my dd and my heart breaks for her.

Next month she's signed up for a "Playtime in Spanish" class through Parks and Rec that sounds fun. Spanish immersion in the form of preschool games for 45 mins. each week. I have also recently joined a homeschool co-op but most of the kids are older. I'm hoping to keep showing up enough that someone else will show up with a preschooler and we can make play dates.

My friend with the 7 year old-- we were right there in the room with them supervising. It irks me that she didn't step in and make her son give it back right away when he clearly took it from Abi. Then to be accused of being a tattletale, it just makes me really angry. She knows about Abi's issues and I told her that I was proud of Abi for using her words. But sometimes with friends you have to keep silent. If it keeps happening I'll say something. Abi has been labeled by this friend because of her past aggresive behavior towards her kids. But Abi's trying harder now and she's actually IMO better behaved than her kids.

Keep the comments coming. I'm so sorry that more mamas can relate to this with their kids, but it makes me feel better that it's normal. Sad but normal.

Darshani

[maya44]

I have been thinking alot about your issue with the "tattletale" incident and I think I may know what the problem might have been (and I don't know all the facts, so I may be wrong.)

I think that your friend might have felt that you expected her to do something about this (give back the toy). In my world that would be considered a faux pas. Yes the child should come and tell, but the mama's response is to help her dc figure out what to do, and it might be to just go play with something else and forget about the toy. More times than not when the mama of the child who tells, does not act like they "expect" the other mama to right the wrong, the mama will do it. But if the mama acts like the other needs to "fix" the problem, that is considered "wrong". Now this may seem unfair and all, and I am not saying you have to accept it, but that is my guess what your friend was thinking.

Also, have you explained to your dd, who I know is very smart, that she needs to do things because they are the right and good thing to do, and that it really does not matter what others do, or even if they do wrong. It does not make it any righter for her?

[charmarty]

I have to get off the computer now, but I couldn't leave with out telling you that my one dd Is SID too. I can understand . I will be back later to discuss.

[KYCat]

I just wanted to send you a "Sorry"
It may have been my son at the park she wanted to play with.
He's a wonderful boy(aren't they all) but sudden direct attention is still something he's uncomfortable with, resulting in complete silence from him. If he's on a toy and someone asks for a turn, he'll probably slink off because he knows about and is pretty good with sharing. But for some reason, when someone nicely says, "hi can I play with you", he just tries to become invisible. We're working on at least politely responding but it's huge for him. I don't feel like I should make him play with people, but I do think that he needs to share and to be polite.
I just wanted to throw out there, that while you are working with your social issues, so are the rest of us. I would even say to your daughter, "it looks like he/she hasn't used her words to be friendly yet". Hopefully some day my son will say, "yeah sure, race you to the slide"; but we're just not there yet.

[Sofiamomma]

Hang in there, Darshani, and keep trying! I had very similar situations with my older dd. I also told her to come to me or a teacher for help if her words did not work. I agree about speaking up for your dd, such as in the case of the child who would not get off the toy. The situation with your friend calling it tattling burns me up. You may have tough choices ahead of you in regards to hanging out with her in the future. I actually had to pull my dd out of a school she was attending for that reason. There were several others as well, but that was a main one. She was always getting in trouble, but the kids who were egging her on and ignoring her when she did control herself and use her words got off scott free. Infuriated me! Good luck. It will get better. I have seen dd's social skills really blossom in the last couple of years. She is nearly eight.

[mogit]

Originally Posted by Dar

As far as playing with kids at the park, even at that age there's a pretty amazingly sophisticated social system at work. As I recall, going up to a kid and asking to play with them wasn't the "right" way. Generally, kids would sort of hang out in proximity for a while and check each other out, and then one would come up to the other and comment on the game in some way, like, "I could be the nextdoor neighbor" or "If we both push it can go really high" or whatever pertains to the task at hand. if you're trying to teach your child how to make friends at the park, I'd go with that sort of method.
Dar

This has been my observation, too. The new kid needs to let the kids already playing retain ownership of their game. If Abi just asks, "Can I play?" the other kid may think, "Why? I'm having fun by myself/with my friends." But if she says, "I could dig a moat around the fort," the other kid is more likely to think, "Hey, that's a great idea!" Then Abi becomes a positive addition to the game rather than an intruder.

Sometimes, though, Abi may come up with an idea that doesn't appeal to the first kid. Then it is important for her to ask, "What can I do instead?" This open-ended question is likely to garner a positive response (the specifics left up to the "owner" of the game), whereas "Can I play?" is much more likely to be answered simply, "No."

Similarly, for turn taking, Abi might have more luck asking, "*When can I have a turn?" or "How many minutes till I can ride the animal?" Then the kid already riding gets to control when he gets off, but Abi still (eventually) gets a turn.

This is all pretty complicated for a three-year-old to handle on her own, especially in the beginning. If you see things not going Abi's way, you can always step in and ask one of these open-ended questions for her. She'll learn to do it herself in time.

I agree with the PPs who said a three-year-old should not be expected to "work things out" with a seven-year-old. She still needs a lot of help at this age, particularly if she has SID issues. I think maya43 may be right about your friend's POV, though. Like the kid on the playground, she doesn't want someone coming into her territory and telling her (even implicitly) what to do. You said your friend already thought of Abi as an aggressive child, based on past behavior, so she may have been thinking, "And not only that, but she's a tattletale, too! And now her mom is trying to tell *my son what to do!" I would talk to your friend in a calmer moment, explain how you have been working with Abi to find alternatives to aggression, then ask what she (your friend) would suggest Abi do.

I hope some of the advice posted in this thread helps. But as Dragonfly said, there are bound to be times when Abi doesn't get the response she wants from other kids, and then it is important to acknowledge both her effort and her disappointment. Let her know you think the other child is missing out by not playing with her, and encourage her to try again next time.

BTW, I think it is wonderful you are trying so hard to help your daughter learn to interact positively with others. Just remember, as PPs have pointed out, that other kids (and adults) are learning, too. The ins and outs of the social world can take a lifetime to master, but it sounds like Abi is off to a good start!

[USAmma]

Thank you SO much for the great repsonses. It's sometimes hard to see things from the point of view of others when my mama bear instincts come out after my dd has been hurt. I'm going to try those alternative solutions.

BTW I got Abi a dog yesterday and hoping she'll form a special bond with her and feel like she has a friend in her. When I went to tuck Abi in she was still awake, staring at her new dog, and said, "I can't believe it! I have a dog!" It was sooo cute! Maybe taking the dog with us to the park will be a kid magnet and Abi can feel important and special as she lets others pet her dog.

Darshani

[Linda KS]

Originally Posted by USAmma

BTW I got Abi a dog yesterday and hoping she'll form a special bond with her and feel like she has a friend in her.

This is so great! Keep us posted about how things are going. Abi sounds like such a sweet kid and some other child is going to be lucky to have her for a friend.

[Nanner]

I only have a minute, but I wanted to respond b/c my own dd seemed to have trouble making friends until fairly recently. She turned 4 in Sept. My advice would be to seek out a child your dd does like to play with and vice versa. Perhaps a slightly older child, like a 6 or 7 yr old with a kind spirit. Having 1 friend can help your dd learn the social ropes a little better. You may even find an older child who you can pay a little to be a "babysitter" for you with you in the other room. 6 yr old or older girls are usually very willing. Another thing is that kids just kind of have their own language that is not all based on politeness. I found that my dd got way way more social after about a month of daycare (a good one who strongly encourages friends and sharing). No matter how many times I talked to her about social graces, it just did not totally sink in until she went to a daycare room with 3,4,and 5 yr olds and a teacher who works to facilitate the children's friendships. But, I also noticed she does not always follow what I feel is "the nice way" to deal with children snatching things or whatever. What she does if a kid snatches her toy is to yell "no!" And she has other responses to kids not playing by the rules that are not-so-polite. But you know what, kids listen to her and respect her space.
As far as asking other kids to play, kids sometimes "ignore" others when they just don't feel like playing. You may try other ways to have her approach kids she wants to play with. A good way is to bring a ball to the park or some other item that is easy to share and that will attract others to play with her.
With my dd, I found practice to be the only way she really learned how to play with other kids and make friends.
And with the tattling, unfortunately kids don't tend to like a tattler. Whether she is in the right or not, others tend to shy away from playing with the kid who runs to the grown ups when she gets slighted.
Try giving her ways to deal with that too. At the same time, try to keep her away from kids who bully her. And, a child who tends to snatch a lot just might find that he can't snatch from little Abi cause Abi will fight back. Not always a bad thing (I am talking about Abi speaking firmly or just taking the toy back, not actually fighting!) .

Some will disagree, but I tend to think kids should work it out if possible, with adults facilitating that for the ones who aren't sure how to.
Just some food for thought! Good luck! This friend stuff can be challenging!
Sara