setting limits in unschooling

[mama_kass]

All my son wants to do is play video games! I have been patient with this and tried to just let him run through it but I realize now that this is not going to happen. He will play video games all the time for the rest of his life. So yesterday I put an end to it and in a way he seemed releived. Once I told him he wasn't allowed to just play video games all the time he started to do other things immediatly and came back to the real world spending time with the family. For a while he did not even want to do anything. Even things that he use to love to do like meet his friends outside to play or have family reading time.

As an unschooler do you set any limits on anything?

[UnschoolnMa]

Originally Posted by mama_kass

All my son wants to do is play video games! I have been patient with this and tried to just let him run through it but I realize now that this is not going to happen. He will play video games all the time for the rest of his life. So yesterday I put an end to it and in a way he seemed releived. Once I told him he wasn't allowed to just play video games all the time he started to do other things immediatly and came back to the real world spending time with the family. For a while he did not even want to do anything. Even things that he use to love to do like meet his friends outside to play or have family reading time.

As an unschooler do you set any limits on anything?

No, I don't. Mine are free to play video games, be online, or watch movies as they wish to. But, this is just how our family works. The children have as much freedom as my husband and I have, as adults. It sounds as if you were really missing your son in other areas (family reading time, etc). If it had been me in that situation I might have started a conversation (perhaps you did too) about what I was seeing and feeling, and tried to get his thoughts on it too.

Me: "I know you are really enjoying your video games lately, but I have a couple of concerns. When can we discuss this?"

[Dar]

Yeah. What she said. I don't set limits, but we talk about things. If I have a concern I share it, and we try to work something out.

Some video games can be played as two-person games, too, so they become a shared activity. Even with one person games, you can watch and talk about the game.

How long had your son been playing video games? Especially if he's not used to self-regulating, it can take a while to get there. And I think it's normal for many people to go through periods of spending a lot of time doing one thing (like my hours of internet scrabble) and then have that fade...

Dar

[UnschoolnMa]

Yea my son (13) is very into his online RPG's. He found one that he adored and played it every day for 3 hours or so at a time. It was new, and I recognized that it was filling a need he had at that time. When I get into something, sometimes I reallly get into it for awhile. I also think that tons of learning goes on via video games. New connections are made, and critical thinking skills developed.

Mama Kiss maybe you and your son (and family I suppose) could come to an agreement on when you'd like to spend time together as a family without video games or the like. ?

[Ravin]

With online games it's good to keep in mind that it isn't a totally unsocial activity. After all, they're playing with other real people, they just don't happen to be in the same room (or city, or state, or often even country).

[moominmamma]

I have eventually reached my peace on this, and yes, I have begun to set limits. I'm quite convinced that some kids don't need them. I have two who don't need them. But my second child... yup, he's where I'm cutting my teeth on the limits thing.

He is introverted, perfectionistic, has avoidant behavioural tendencies, has high need for physical activity, and doesn't handle transitions well at all. All this boils down to the fact that he tends to get extremely "locked into" solitary pursuits like computer games, to the exclusion of the things his body and psyche thrive on. He's got all the makings of an addictive personality. He gets angry for some trivial reason, turns to computer games to block out his feelings, gets stuck there for hours and hours, day after day, gradually feeling worse and worse about himself because of his lack of physical activity and lack of accomplishments (to his own alas high standards... not tidying his room, not practising his piano or viola, not helping with the cooking, caring for the hens etc.). And he retreats more and more, becoming more and more miserable as he accomplishes less and less with his days.

He too responded to limits with relief (after initial tears and protests, wailing and gnashing of teeth). And within about 2 days I had my happy guy back. The difference was like night and day.

Some kids will find their own limits. My eldest has much of the same perfectionism, introversion and difficulty with transitions. But she's not quite as avoidant, and she has less need for physical activity, so she can handle prolonged periods of immersion in one or another activity and find her way out the other end with her self-esteem intact. My third child will never need limits from me. She doesn't have that tendency to get locked into activities and she's more extroverted. She's not the sort of kid to live in her bedroom for 6 days until she's read all the Harry Potter books for the 3rd and 4th and 5th times. (BTDT.)

All kids are different.

Miranda

[SagMom]

I don't set time limits or make rules about when they can or can't do things, but I will talk with them, ask them to come and play a game with us, or let them know some of us are going out somewhere and say, "Why don't you join us?" etc. I wouldn't tell them they're "not allowed" to do what they want, but I'd suggest other things that they might want to do as well.

All of us get hooked on things we're doing--for ds it's video games, for dd it's books, for me (right now) it's knitting. We get to a point where we just want to finish this next part, but then you get to that part and think, "Okay, just this next step and then I'll stop" and one thing leads to another. It seems to happen in cycles around here though, and over different things.

[mama_kass]

My DS just completly dropped out of life! Not wanting to do anything accept play the games from the time he woke up to the time he went to bed and asking me to make him meals to eat while playing! I gave it some time and couldn't take it any more. It is not because it is a game. I told him I would be concerned about him doing anything for that long. Things have been much better the last couple of days for all of us. Even my ds told me that he is glad that I am setting limits. He told me he just can't stop on his own. Perhaps some children need limits set.

[Greaseball]

OK, I'm just a lurker, but since I may have to deal with this issue if I unschool...

If I started to get the feeling that my child was only going to play video games for the rest of her life, I'd have to ask myself: Is that true, and would that be so bad? Also, what if it was not a video game? Would I be equally concerned if it was a book, windowbox garden, gerbil, homemade lamp, robot, painting, knitted sweater, pottery wheel, or chemistry set? Would playing with a chemistry set for the rest of her life somehow be better than spending that same time on a video game, and why? Will she learn more from building a gerbil habitrial than she will from getting to the next level of Sonic 2? How do I know that? What makes me think she is getting nothing useful out of the video game?

It's very unlikely that my child will want to do any one activity to the exclusion of all others for the rest of her life. Maybe she will play video games for a whole month. Maybe even for a good part of a year. But it won't be all she does. She will be learning things other than video-game stuff even if I can't see it or test it.

The only ban I would have on video games is that they not be overly violent.

Going back to my lurking and my Teenage Liberation Handbook...:

[moominmamma]

Originally Posted by Greaseball

Also, what if it was not a video game? Would I be equally concerned if it was a book, windowbox garden, gerbil, homemade lamp, robot, painting, knitted sweater, pottery wheel, or chemistry set? Would playing with a chemistry set for the rest of her life somehow be better than spending that same time on a video game, and why? Will she learn more from building a gerbil habitrial than she will from getting to the next level of Sonic 2? How do I know that? What makes me think she is getting nothing useful out of the video game?

These are all good questions. "Would I be equally concerned if it was a book... etc.?" Speaking for myself, the answer would be yes. If I had a child who spent hours and hours a day for weeks and months on end at a pottery wheel, or knitting, or reading, you can bet I'd be concerned. My eldest did exactly that, actually. At age 5 1/2 she was spending over 6 hours a day in her bedroom reading. A five-year-old, refusing to come to lunch day after day after day, refusing playdates, not interested in going outside, not getting exercise, not eating or sleeping properly. I waited it out for a few weeks, but here's what I noticed: she was regressing in other areas and missing opportunities that were more than outweighing what she was getting by reading. Her social skills were waning. She was short-tempered, irritable, reacting poorly to her younger brother. Tantrums had suddenly resurfaced. I was concerned.

What concerns me about obsessive play in children is that there are aspects of their growth that are developmentally- and socially-windowed. Meaning, if you miss 4,000 hours of your childhood because you are spending 6-8 hours a day in front of a computer game you miss 4,000 hours in which to learn to ride a bike, to learn to approach potential friends at the park, to play the viola, to engage in imaginative play with friends, to increase your vocabulary, to do the soccer funskills Saturday sessions, to learn to swim. Of course you can learn these things later, but you may very well be hampered by the lack of opportunities, your 'older beginner' status, your gradually waning neurodevelopmental plasticity, your self-consciousness, the more analytical approach resulting from your age, and so on.

I'd be much less concerned about a 21-year-old spending six hours a day playing Sonic 2 than a 5-year-old. The 21-year-old probably already had a childhood. The 5-year-old may be missing hers.

"Would playing with a chemistry set for the rest of her life somehow be better than spending that same time on a video game, and why?"

My universe is not value-neutral. I happen to believe that there are some things that are inherently more worthwhile than other things. If you don't, that's fine. Personally I value open-ended creative problem-solving more than the kind of binary problem-solving that video games encourage. I value music-making more than doing coloring books, reading more than watching TV. It's a question of one's life philosophy.

Yes a child is no doubt learning something from playing Sonic 2 for 8 hours, but it may very well be that what she is learning doesn't nearly measure up to what she would have learned by instead spending the day reading a book, riding her bike, playing with her friend, yakking with her mom, watching "Popular Mechanics for Kids", practising her piano, loading the breadmaker, writing a letter to her cousin and phoning her grandma.

Don't misunderstand: I don't necessarily assume that because I see no value in something my children are doing that there is no value in it. My instinct is to always give the benefit of the doubt, to observe closely, to reserve judgement. Often there is value that I haven't seen at first.

But when my children are becoming cranky, unhappy and withdrawn, are losing interest in activities they formerly enjoyed, and are sinking deeper and deeper into obsessive computer game play, I will grit my teeth and set those limits in order to get my happy children back as part of the family.

Miranda

[Dar]

I think there's a big difference between talking to your child about your concerns and setting limits. I see the former as one of the core values of unschooling, and the latter as... well, not.

My child's life is *her* life, not mine. I may think she'd be better off studying algebra or reading Hemingway, and if so I'll definitely talk to her about that, but her education is ultimimately her purview. My values aren't the ones that will shape her choices, hers are. My universe doesn't have to be value-neutral, but I need to make sure I separate myself from my child.

I think the idea of "windows" for learning is being vastly overstated, and many of these "windows" have been discredited. Yes, if your child isn't exposed to spoken language until he's 8 or 10 he probably won't master it. OTOH, Rain mastered swimming really quickly at age 9, much faster and to a higher level than the average 4 yr old. Being self conscious about being an "older beginner" is a lot less of a problem for the older unschoolers I know, because they have no sense that certain skills "should be" learned at certain times.

I think, too, that learning to regulate *yourself* is an important skill, and by inflicting limits on our children we ultimately deny them that opportunity. Again, the grown unschoolers I know tend to get totally obsessed by their passions, but they've also learned to take care of business and pay the rent, too.

Dar

[moominmamma]

I agree, Dar, that I overstated the importance of developmental and social windows. I do, however, think that there are certain things that are missed forever if they're not delved into in childhood, imaginative play being the chief among them. I also think that children who do not develop social give and take skills, perspective-taking and empathy by age 8 or 10 are at a distinct disadvantage as they forge through the pre-teen and teen years, so if their obsessive play is taking them out of the social loop of the family in large part, I'd be concerned.

About values. Yes, our kids are their own people too. But if I have a 5yo who believes that watching violent cartoons is more worthwhile than playing with Lego or riding his bike or interacting with friends or family, do I simply explain my stance and then shrug when he disagrees, thinking "well, I have my values; he has his. It's his life."? I think kids start out with inclinations and interests and assumptions that gradually get synthesized into values over a period of a dozen or more years. During that time I think it's a parent's job to provide leadership in things like values. Leadership through example, and discussion, yes. But sometimes, in exceptional circumstances, also through limits, in order that we may create space in the child's life for particular worthy values to be observed, experienced and appreciated.

Like I said, I have four children, and with only one of them have I ever found the need to set limits, and in that case the limit was of a rather minimal sort, and within two days he was on-side in seeing the benefits. But that one very successful foray into limit-setting has taught me not to be categorical in decrying them for all children. Yes, limits are probably not ever necessary. But my son is much happier and feels much better about himself since we instituted ours.

Miranda

[Claudette]

I actually do set limits on computer gaming with my boys. I do this because I believe (from all I've researched on the topic) that computer games create a very unnatural environment for my boys, which can lead to physcial problems for them, with regard to the development of their eye sight (a concern for me as I'm legally blind) and with regard to the release of adrenalin into their system which does not get burnt off, and can lead to a kind of adrenalin junky addiction, putting strain on their hearts and other major organs. However, this is just my take on it !

So, I do set limits on some things, things I believe my children have imcomplete understanding of yet and are therefore unable to self-regulate in a healthy fashion, I do this because I believe it is my role as their parent to look out for them in this way.

With all other things I don't regulate for them, they are free to play indoors, out doors, physically and idolly to their hearts content as long as they take everyone into account (jumping on dad is not ok, unless he is happy to play that game too). They watch tv and dvds as much as they wish, but we only have one tv, so they do have to take everyone's viewing wishes into account.

It's funny with computer games, it is one of those all consuming activies, quite unlike other activites. I find my boys will happily watch 1/2 hour or so of tv, and then go do something, same with other activities, but when it comes to computer games - certain kinds of repeative, competitive games, they do get hook, and on occassion when dh let's them play while I'm out, I will come home after a couple of hours to discover they've been sitting stock still at the computer for two hours, they're flushed and for days afterwards they whine to get back on the computer. This does not reflect their usual interaction with the world, so I've come to think of computer games (as opposed to programs for language, science etc. that they have access to at will) as addictive and not something they should be responsible for self-regulating. I liken it to giving the kids the hey to the drinks cabinet, some kids might get sick from the alcohol and learn self-regulate, other might just become alcoholics... Not a chance I'm taking with my kids.

[mamarhu]

In my family, it's TV, not computer games, but it's sort of the same. We didn't have a TV till 6 months ago, so some of this obsession is the newness, but the Dumplings seem to watch nearly every waking hour on some days. Rather than "setting limits", I simply plan activities. They can't stay home alone, so that isn't an option. We volunteer one day a week at the food bank, have museum memberships, take art classes, etc. I don't really ask "do you want to go?" it's more like, "we're going to XXX today." "I don't wanna" is countered with "But *I* want to. You have to come so I can go out, but you don't have to have fun or learn anything. You just have to be polite enough to not spoil my trip." Usually, they forget to be sullen about 10 minutes from the house.

I am a lousy cop, and I know this is the chicken's way out. But by passively leaving good books around the house, inviting them to join me cooking or whatever, they are tempted away from the boob tube, and into something else for an hour or two, now and then. Occasionally, this sparks an interest that continues awhile.

I see my job as parent/teacher/mentor sort of like a tour guide to the world - "Look! There's some good stuff over here", or "Whoops, that area is dangerous".

[Greaseball]

This is very interesting, since I've been asking myself how much can I structure the day, and what kinds of learning can I put limits on, and still call myself an unschooler. Fortunately we don't have video games, but we have TV and movies.

But I think if I was going to do it I'd have to let go of the idea that I'm the one who knows what they should be learning. If my kids are just going to have their day and their learning planned by adults, I don't know what the point would be of keeping them at home. My idea of what counts as learning may be very different from theirs, and I don't think I could swing homeschooling if I didn't want to defer to their ideas.

But I suppose there are different "degrees" of unschooling? Maybe some of it is totally unstructured with no guidance unless asked, maybe some parents strongly suggest ideas, and maybe some have clear rules?

But what about the level of faith involved? I think I'd have to be able to tell myself, it's fine if they're 8 years old and still not reading, it's fine if they haven't done a math problem in 6 months, it's fine if they want to stay home and not go on educational field trips...but then are there certain things that I have to put my foot down on and say, Well, that's not fine!

[luv my 2 sweeties]

Miranda, I think the fact that your ds is *thanking* you for the limits and feels he was unable to stop on his own is the best indicator you could have that you did the right thing. Some of us simply don't self-regulate as well as others. I'm not that great at it, and I don't think it's my parents' fault. They had limits but not overbearing ones, and my sisters do not seem to struggle with "habits" as much as I do. I've observed that the people in my life who seem to self-regulate better than I do, do so regardless of whether they grew up with stricter limits or with fewer limits than I had. Those who had excessively overbearing parents do seem to have more of a tendency to go overboard, but beyond that, it's gotta be at least partly genetic, I think. (Someone mentioned how we would feel if someone placed limits on us as adults. Well, can I tell you how much I wish my dh would *forbid* me to drink any more diet soda? I'm not kidding -- it would really help me stop, and I'm struggling a lot with this right now. It feels much like an addiction to me, although not a life-destroying one since it doesn't impair my functioning. Thank goodness I never got into alchohol or drugs as a teen -- I'd probably be on the streets!)

Perhaps one of the things your ds is learning through unschooling is that he needs stricter limits than some other people. If you had never let him try *not* having limits, he might not have learned this about himself until he was on his own. This kind of self-knowledge is a valid lesson, and I don't think implementing it should get your family kicked out of the unschooling "tribe", IYKWIM. He might want to start thinking about specific ways he can set and enforce limits for himself (beyond simply relying on the feeling that he should change some behavior, which may not be a strong enough motivator for him), so that as an adult he will have a plan in place when he leaves your home. In the mean time, it makes sense for you to help him out with the limit setting, and he seems to appreciate it.

You seem confident with your decision, which you should be, IMO. I'm just lending my support. Good job, Mom!

[umbrella]

Mine are free to play video games, be online, or watch movies as they wish to. But, this is just how our family works. The children have as much freedom as my husband and I have, as adults.

I find this interesting. My child is still too young for video games and such (age 4), but my first thought is to of course set limits. And yet, one of my main parenting philosophies is to treat children the way I would like to be treated.

I think a major difference is that in our family, the adults have limits as well. My husband and I are NOT free to play video games, be online, or watch movies as much as we wish to. My don't have specific time constraints, but dh and I have both said to eachother on occassion, something like, "you've been doing that kind of a lot lately." If it cuts into our other responsiblities, or reasonable family time, it's too much.

[mama_daba]

this is my first post here, but when i have kids i do plan to unschool them and i do plan to set limits, I get adicted to video games, and to the computer, and i have since i was a kid, when iw as a kid i once literaly plays mario brothers for about 16 houres straight, i stopped to use the bathroom and that was it, i was maybe 10 years old, if my own children start to show signs that they are having trouble with video games, addictive behavior i am going to set limits, children are not adults, i plan to treat them with the same respect i want to be treated with and the same respect i treat my partner with but i don't plan to treat them like adults cuz they won't be, and even adults sometimes have trouble setting limits for themselfs, it is hard for me to set limits for myself, now that being said there is a good chance i won't have to set limits because i do get very adicted to video games if i am not carful i don't plan on having any of them in the house, the only way my kids will have video games is if they choose to buy them with there own money, and if they do that i will then watch them closely and decide if i need to set limits, my partner is a computer programer and as a young child learned to make his own video games, i have talked a lot with him about this and he hopes that when we have kids he can teach them programing and that the games they play will be ones they have made themselvs, my partner is also really aware of how adicted to games i get and in the past when he had his nintendo hooked up to the tv and i was having trouble when i asked him if he could put it in the garage he was very understanding

[2tadpoles]

Originally Posted by umbrella

I think a major difference is that in our family, the adults have limits as well. My husband and I are NOT free to play video games, be online, or watch movies as much as we wish to.

Well, that's exactly what I was thinking.

I can't sit here all day and surf the 'net. Things need to be done. Cooking, errands, learning experiences... the list goes on. Dh can't watch TV all day. He has to go to work.

I hear people often expressing that we shouldn't expect adult-like behavior of children. Yet the children are to be given adult-like freedoms? They don't have the adult-like mentality to undertake adult-like responsibilities, so why do they get adult-like freedoms?

I'm really tired and have a headache, so this probably isn't coming out right.

[tarasam]

We do set limits.

Our version of unschooling means providing an environment rich in learning opportunities. This means lots of books, art supplies, dress-up items, open-ended building toys, as well as easy access to community resources like museums, libraries, music venues, etc.

I'll admit it: I am one of those anti-TV people. I don't despise all TV, but I feel that our son learns much better when the TV is off. I realize that other children are actively learning when the TV is on, but that doesn't happen in our house...when the TV was on, he was a zombie, glued to the tube until I turned it off. No other activity goes on if the TV is on, and that is why we choose to not have the TV on while he is awake. Exceptions are: extreme illness (we have about 8-10 videos for these instances), or if we find a video that we really want to see - like Walking with Dinosaurs, or Charlie and the Chocolate Factory.

Again, I know that some kids can watch TV on a regular basis and not let it take over their minds, but that isn't my kid.

I do have several PC games that he plays, and I'd say he does that once or twice a week, for about 45 minutes per session.

Tara<---obviously not a radical unschooler