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Setting up a delayed/Selective Vax Schedule - Page 2

post #21 of 71
Hi Belleweather,

I'm in the same boat as you, we have also decided to do selective vaxes and have had a hard time finding the information. I mean this as no offense to those of you who are anti-vaxing, but sometimes I wish there was a seperate board for those of us who choose to do selective and delayed vaxing. I completely respect everyone's right to do what they think is best for their child, and you guys on this board have given me much to think about and a lot of good information, but for those of us in the middle, it can be hard to find information.

I actually found more info on selective and delayed vaxing on some of the other parenting boards on MDC (just do a search - most are under babies or toddlers) There was one great post, and I wish I had bookmarked it. One of the moms is a pediatrician and this is the schedule she does with her kids (I copied it in a hurry a few months ago, hope I got it all down right!):

DTap: 4, 6, 9, 18m
hib: 12m, 2.5yr
IPV: 12m. 2yr, 3yr, 4yr
PCV: 9m, 2yr
MMR: 18m, 4yr
Hep B: 2.5yr, 3yr, 4yr
varicella: 4yr

I specifically remember her saying that she had done much research on both sides of the issues, and she had decided this was best for her family (I think she worked in a hospital and had encountered many of these diseases in their worst state). I also remember her saying that she made it a point to never give more than one shot at a time.

Personally, we still have only done one vax: hib. I plan on adding either the DTap or just the DT, but I'm still looking for more information on that one. I feel tetanus is an important one( all my doctors say if I give only one, that should be it), but I'm not sure which version to give. If anyone has info on that it would be great.

Again, I hope I didn't offend anyone - you guys are great and I appreciate your convictions!
post #22 of 71
Some of the info I have found says to delay the mmr until around age 2 because the child is better to tolerate it at a larger weight and it is less likely to be associated with autism at that age.

Do not do several shots at once. Do one shot at a time and wait at least 4 months between. Give your child a large dose of Vit c/folic acid before the vax (antioxidants - I believe I read this in a Mothering article). NEVER vax a sick child, even one with a small cold (this is contrary to what western medicine says - they say it's okay to vax a child with a cold or fever under 100)

I skipped all PRevnar shots after my ds developed a high fever and vomiting after the first one. At around age 2 they outgrow the need for Prevnar anyway.

INSIST on mercury/thimerosol-free vax's. Ask to read the package insert.

Keep a record of any symptoms your child develops after vax's - you will need to keep an eye on them for up to one month after.

INstead of re-vaxing with the mmr at aGE 4-6, I am going to ask to have a blood titer drawn. The only reason they recommend re-vaxing at that age is because a small percentage of kids do not develop immunity from the earlier vax's.

I did do the Hep B shot. HepB is EASILY picked up. It can be transmitted through saliva and the virus lives on a counter-top or other surface for up to 3 days - it is tough, unlike the aids virus. When they tested all health care workers prior to giving the shot in the 80's, they discovered that between 10-17% were already immune to Hep B. This means that despite being rigorous in their precautions they were exposed to it and developed immunity on their own. I know one nurse who got a very serious case of the disease from work and was in the icu with jaundice. If you are going to an area where HepB is considered endemic (very common) like southeast asia, you should be vaxxed. Think of all the toddlers sticking their fingers into their mouths while playing, chewing on toys, and drinking each other's sippy cups.

I totally agree with you, if you are traveling you want to protect your child from as many diseases as possible, especially considering that the medical facilities and treatments may not be very good in some countries.
post #23 of 71

Vaccine Class offered on line

Wow--Lots of great information, people. There are some smart people on board here.

ANYWAY!! I came to tell you that I'm taking a class on yahoogroups by Sheri Nakken, a homeopath who's been collecting all kinds of information on Vaccines. For 4 months you receive emails and read a book called The Vaccine GUIDE, Risks and Benefits for Children and Adults, by Randall Neustaedter OMD. $25 usd plus book costs.

If you decide to take it, please let her know that Kerry Olvera from class #4a told you about it.

Online Course -

1. Learn all of the aspects of vaccines and why they are dangerous
2. Be able tell others with a stronger knowledge base about vaccines
3. Have a ready resource of information in your files on your computer
4. Be able to ask questions of me
5. Be able (in part 2) to know about the various diseases, the risks of the disease and vaccines, and alternative treatment for illnesses

The class will be divided into 2 parts (each part lasting approximately 3 months - separate charges for each part)
Part 1 will be a pre-requisite to taking part 2

This is NOT a discussion list and you will only receive emails and lessons from me, limiting the number of emails

Part 1:
I. Overview of the vaccine issue
A. History of Vaccines
B. Childhood Vaccines
C. Adult Vaccines
D. Philosophy of Health and Illness
E. Vaccine Injury Act
F. Pharmaceutical Companies and Conflict of Interest
G. Fear of Disease
H. Personal Choice
I. CDC and mandating vaccines
J. Choice
II. Adverse Reactions from Vaccines
III. Contaminants in Vaccines
IV. Chemicals in Vaccines
V. Vaccine Studies
VI. Alternative Medicine & Vaccines/Health/Illness
VII. Building a Strong Immune System
VIII. Laws
**********
Part 2 (to start AFTER completion of Part 1) will include information on:
I. The diseases - incidence, severity, treatment
II. The vaccines for each disease vaccinated for
III. Alternative Treatment for the diseases
IV. The Future of Vaccines

There is a fee for this course
Email me at vaccineinfo@tesco.net
Sheri Nakken, RN, MA, Classical Hom
post #24 of 71
Cave's safe vaccine schedule.
IF you are going to vaccinate, this is recommended. One at a time, in a healthy child, vit.a and c one week before and after a vaccine.

VACCINE SCHEDULE
ALL VACCINES SHOULD BE THIMEROSAL FREE

“Educate Before You Vaccinate”

Birth - Hepatitis B (test mother for Hep B - if positive, give vaccine - if
negative, hold until 4-5 years of age)

4 months - Hib, IPV

5 months - DTaP

6 months - Hib, IPV

7 months - DTaP

8 months - Hib

9 months - DTaP

15 months - Measles

17 months - Hib, IPV

18 months - DTaP

21 months - Mumps

27 months - Rubella

2-3 years - Prevnar - 1 dose (Please do your research on this one, there are many adverse reactions reported including death)

4-5 years - Hepatitis B (3 doses - first two 1 month apart, 3rd given 6 months
after first)

4-5 years - Varicella (if blood test for immunity is negative)

4-5 years - DTaP, IPV boosters

4-5 years - Test titers for Measles, Mumps, Rubella. Give only those that test
negative for immunity and split out the components 6 months apart if more than
one is needed.
post #25 of 71

I am confused by this...

One shot at a time. Yet they state DTaP and IVP.

Isn't that four things you're vaccinateing against all at one time?

Two poisons against which the body can never build a defense, the pertussis, plus the polio. I don't understand.???
post #26 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gitti
One shot at a time. Yet they state DTaP and IVP.

Isn't that four things you're vaccinateing against all at one time?

Two poisons against which the body can never build a defense, the pertussis, plus the polio. I don't understand.???
You are right! It's not always one at a time---erase the "one at a time"! Sorry about that---they weren't my words, they were someone else's words.
post #27 of 71
Quote:
Two poisons against which the body can never build a defense
What makes you say that, Gitti?
post #28 of 71
Quote:
I did do the Hep B shot. HepB is EASILY picked up. It can be transmitted through saliva and the virus lives on a counter-top or other surface for up to 3 days - it is tough, unlike the aids virus. When they tested all health care workers prior to giving the shot in the 80's, they discovered that between 10-17% were already immune to Hep B. This means that despite being rigorous in their precautions they were exposed to it and developed immunity on their own. I know one nurse who got a very serious case of the disease from work and was in the icu with jaundice. If you are going to an area where HepB is considered endemic (very common) like southeast asia, you should be vaxxed. Think of all the toddlers sticking their fingers into their mouths while playing, chewing on toys, and drinking each other's sippy cups.
This is contradictory to what I've read..that hep b is a bloodborn pathogen..Is this getiing crossed with the transmission ability of another vax'd for disease or have I misunderstood??
al
post #29 of 71
It is bloodborn, but can sometimes be transmitted without direct contact with blood. Now I'm not trying to convince you not to vax, I've only recently made up my own mind on the whole thing, BUT 10 to 17% does NOT suggest it is easily transmissible. I'd like to point out 2 things. The first is that these were people in the healthcare field - that does NOT translate to people in the general population. And even so, that's still a small number. The second thing I'd like to point out is that those people developed immunity on their own - without it causing them any long term problems, so what's the big deal? It makes no sense to say that the entire population of newborn infants needs to be vaccinated for a disease that less than 1/5 of healthcare workers even get - and the ones that do get it aren't getting sick from it! I don't understand that argument.
post #30 of 71
I'm not really worried about it, but it can be present in saliva, and child-to-child transmission is one of the ways it's transmitted in some areas..
http://www.britishlivertrust.org.uk/...epatitis_b.asp
post #31 of 71
Richelle and alex, hep B is transmitted via blood and body fluids (semen, mucous, saliva). The virus is present in very high amounts in blood and body fluids during the early phase of the disease which is before the person knows they are sick. It is called the window phase because the person has no symptoms. Healthy adults can usually fight the disease off. The problem with infants/young children getting it is that their immune system isn't fully developed and they are more likely to get a full-blown case and may become chronic carriers. A chronic carrier always carries the disease (they are unable to develop immunity and fight it off) and is always a potential risk to others. Chronic carriers livers are hit very hard and they are more likely to develop liver cancer as a result of the disease and die at a relatively young age (in their 40's). Hep B has moved out of the high-risk groups (prostitutes, iv drug users) in southeast Asia and is prevalent in the general population.

I think that 10-17% of helath care workers who developed antibodies to the disease without a known exposure is relatively high myself. These are people who wore gloves and masks and did not get a needle stick, they may not have even cared for a known hepB patient. Health care workers are trained to use precautions against all blood and body fluids. The 1980's was during the early aids phase and believe me, healthcare workers were paranoid. They are not part of the general population but they were trying much harder than the general population to not get this disease.

Earlier hep B was known as the blood-bourne form as opposed to hep A which is spread via fecal-oral route.

I just think a lot of people who choose not to vax against this disease are making their decisions without fully understanding how the disease is transmitted and that an infant or child getting it is much more serious than an adult getting it.
post #32 of 71
Actually, I do understand the risks, which is exactly why we chose not to vaccinate our daughter for Hep B. We made that decision before she was born, when we were still thinking we would get her all the rest of the vaccines. The risks are as follows:

'In a resolution voting against mandatory childhood vaccines, members of the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons stated that "children under the age of 14 are three times more likely to suffer adverse effects -- including death -- following the hepatitis B vaccine than to catch the disease itself." ' http://64.41.99.118/vran/vaccines/he...accine_hep.htm

"Hepatitis B is a rare, mainly blood-transmitted disease. In 1996 only 54 cases of the disease were reported to the CDC in the 0-1 age group. There were 3.9 million births that year, so the observed incidence of hepatitis B in the 0-1 age group was just 0.001%. In the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS), there were 1,080 total reports of adverse reactions from hepatitis B vaccine in 1996 in the 0-1 age group, with 47 deaths reported. Total VAERS hepatitis B reports for the 0-1 age group outnumber reported cases of the disease 20 to 1." http://www.mercola.com/1999/archive/..._by_belkin.htm


"Approximately 50% of patients who contract Hepatitis B develop no symptoms after exposure.

However, the exposure ensures that they will have life-time immunity. An additional 30% develop only flu-like symptoms, and again, this group will acquire life-time immunity.

Of the remaining 20% exposed to Hepatitis B will develop the symptoms of the disease. 95% of this 20% will fully recover, with life-time immunity.

Therefore, less than 5% of people who contract Hepatitis B will become chronic carriers of the infection.

The numbers get even smaller: of that 5%, nearly 75% (or 3.75% of the total exposed) will live with an asymptomatic infection and only 25%, (or only 1.25% of the total number of people exposed) will develop chronic liver disease or liver cancer, 10-30 years after the acute infection. (Hyams, K.C. (1995) Risks of chronicity following acute hepatitis B virus infection: A review. Clin. Infect. Dis. 20, 992-1000.) " http://www.mercola.com/2002/jan/23/h...is_vaccine.htm

I NEVER make a decision about my daughter's health without knowing all the facts first - that includes understanding the risks of a disease. I'm slightly offended that you would suggest otherwise, although I know you didn't mean to insult.

ETA: As long as a child is nursing, then the maturity of his/her immune system doesn't really matter, as (s)he will be getting maternal immune factors. I've seen this in action when my DD was exposed to chicken pox and did not catch them, when even a previously vaccinated child DID catch them. I also believe that if you allow the child to choose the time of weaning, (s)he will naturally do so at the time when his/her immune system has matured to the point of caring for itself. Nature works in wonderful ways.
post #33 of 71
Quote:
I think that 10-17% of helath care workers who developed antibodies to the disease without a known exposure is relatively high myself. These are people who wore gloves and masks and did not get a needle stick, they may not have even cared for a known hepB patient. Health care workers are trained to use precautions against all blood and body fluids. The 1980's was during the early aids phase and believe me, healthcare workers were paranoid. They are not part of the general population but they were trying much harder than the general population to not get this disease.
Please point me to this study as I haven't seen it. Percentages that high wouldn't surprise me at all though.

How are you aware of the healthcare culture of the 1980's? I wasn't a part of that culture until the '90's but I have sat with nurses at lunch who did work during that time period who have laughed about "the good old days" when they would be sitting at lunch & look down to see all the blood caked in the settings of their wedding rings. At least in many places, healthcare workers even to this day are not as cautious about infection control as one might expect. And since HIV wasn't identified until 1983, it would make a lot of sense that even those who were paranoid in the latter 80s could have been exposed previously -- just because they had proven immunity in the 80s doesn't mean they were exposed in the 80s.


Quote:
HepB is EASILY picked up. It can be transmitted through saliva and the virus lives on a counter-top or other surface for up to 3 days....... Earlier hep B was known as the blood-bourne form as opposed to hep A which is spread via fecal-oral route.
So how are you going to acquire a bloodborne pathogen from a countertop?
post #34 of 71
Thread Starter 
Oh you guys, this is wonderful! This is exactly the sort of information I was looking for! Thank all you so so so much!

Siddie and KellyP: I agree with you concerns about Hep. B. I think I'm a little over sensitive to it, since my father taught classes in bloodborn pathogens for OSHA and had a special research interest in Hepetitis. He was actually convinced that within the next generation we were going to see an epidemic of liver faliure from Hepetits... I wish I still had his research available, maybe I'll crawl around in the attic and see if I can find it when I'm home for the holidays. I'm just not convinced that the risk is so low outside of the US. CDC Statistics only cover the united states, and I know hepetitis is endemic in Eastern Europe, South East Asia, and Africa. And lets be frank here - while Toddlers aren't having sex or injecting themselves with drugs, there's a whole lot of drooling and sticking things in mouths and even contact with blood when kids get owies and big bites and what have you.

Saganaga: Thanks for listing out that whole schedule, it's a wonderful starting point for research. I'm assuming that this is for your child -- can you tell me more about why you decided to do DTaP starting so early? I think the way you've laid out the various componenet of MMR is really interesting and logical too...

Lydia_Momma: Thanks for the information about the class, I'll definately keep that in mind for the summer when DH would have a chance to look it over with me too.

Becca: That's wonderful information, thanks so much. I'm very serious considering Tetanus as well... there's just so many rusty bits out there in the world that you can hurt yourself on, you know? We might chose to BF for at least a year and rely on that immunity for Pertussis and then just do DT, but I tend to leave the end decision up to DH -- he's the doctor, and so if he says that an illness is something serious enough that he wouldn't want to deal with it alone in a mud-floored yurt in Kurgystan, then I've got to go with that, you know? That's kind of our 'worst case scenario'.

Electra and GreenCurry: Thanks for the links, I'll add them to our growing pile of research to look through!
post #35 of 71
Just a little heads up on immunity and breastfeeding:

Breastmilk immunity is from what I understand only diseases you have actually aquired. So, unless you actually had pertusis the disease, your baby will not get immunity from your vaccination (which probably has worn off in the light of the new recommendations coming around for teens to be re-vaxed).

Since I had pertusis as a child dispite my vaccination against it, my baby gets some immunity while she is exclusively bfing and it would go down as she begins to nurse less and less.

But, I have to add on behalf of bfing, a bf infant has a better chance of fighting off pertusis and having fewer complications from the disease than a formula fed infant, b/c BM is the best for human infants and supports their immune system development.
post #36 of 71
If I were going somewhere that I seriously thought my child would contract polio, I'm not so sure I'd want IPV. Though it does have less risk than OPV, I might consider obtaining OPV outside the US. In fact, if there ever is a polio problem in the US again for some reason you can expect to see some OPV recommendations -- ACIP is currently working on that issue.
post #37 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Belleweather
Saganaga: Thanks for listing out that whole schedule, it's a wonderful starting point for research. I'm assuming that this is for your child -- can you tell me more about why you decided to do DTaP starting so early? I think the way you've laid out the various componenet of MMR is really interesting and logical too...
No, I haven't done this with my children---this is someone else's advise---Cave's from her book "What your Dr. may NOT tell you about children's vaccinations".

Breaking up the MMR & doing the 3 seperate (6 months apart) is highly recommended among the autism community.
post #38 of 71
Electra, about the breastfeeding. That is actually incorrect. When a child is exposed to any illness, they transfer that germ to the mother through their saliva during the next nursing session. The mother's body instantly begins making antibodies to that pathogen, which are then transferred to the baby during the next nursing session. So, while on a continuous basis baby will only be getting antibodies to diseases mom has been exposed to, once baby is exposed to something, they'll start getting those antibodies as well. Amazing, isn't it? Here's a quote and a link:

"Even more amazing, if a baby contracts an illness that mom has not been exposed to previously, he will transfer this organism through his saliva to the breast, where antibodies are manufactured on site and then sent back to baby via the milk to help him cope. Science does not come even close to duplicating this feat! Babies who are sick will often increase their nursing frequency, and researchers now believe that they do so not only for the comfort that it brings to a miserable little being, but also to increase the baby's intake of antibodies and immune factors available through mother's breast (Dettwyler, website)."
http://www.militantbreastfeedingcult...e_feeding.html
post #39 of 71
Richelle -- read very carefully what I wrote again. I did not say that bfing had no immunities, I said that your vaccinations will not carry to the bfing infant.
post #40 of 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Electra
Breastmilk immunity is {only from}... diseases you have actually aquired. So, unless you actually had pertusis the disease, your baby will not get immunity..
Yes. That only makes sense. A vaccine that does not even provide the original recipient immunity can not possible be expected to be passed on in any way, shape, or form.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Richelle
.. When a child is exposed to any illness, they transfer that germ to the mother through their saliva during the next nursing session.
Yes. That is also correct.

You are both correct. Can we consider it settled?
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