The pledge

[mz_libbie22]

I am DREADING sending my son to public schools. He's three and a half. I don't want to homeschool him but I don't like the idea of public school either. The reason being (aside from quality of education) the pledge. First of all, if his school was making the kids say "under god" I would have a HUGE problem with that, second of all it's just plain weird to make young kids recite their "allegiance" to a flag everyday. It's on the verge of brainwashing in my opinion. Do all schools do this, or are schools like Waldorf non-pledge schools? Anyone else share the same opinion??

[kama'aina mama]

I was just thinking about this the other day. I was out with my 4 y/o DD and her 5 y/o friend who has started kindergarten. She pointed to a pole displaying the US flag and the Hawai'ian state flag and said "Hey! Those are the flags we say Pledge to every day at kindergarten!" As though she was a little surprised to see them outside her classroom. I told her, "No, you actually only pledge to the one on top... the US flag." She argued with me... so it is clear that it really is just a rote learning/ brainwashing thing...not something she really understands at all.

[Fianna]

You know, I vividly remember reciting the pledge in kindergarten <mumble mumble> years ago, and I never really knew what it meant! And, duh, you'd think I'd realize that my dd was doing the same thing in kindergarten, but it honestly didn't cross my mind until she started reciting it the other day while we were jumping on the trampoline. It is a part of the morning routine--the watch the school news on tv, where they are told about any special events, the lunch menu, any student birthdays, and then the American flag appears on the tv and they recite the pledge. I asked her what the pledge meant, and even went through some specific lines, but it was clear she really had no clue. It was just words that she had learned to recite,sort of like lyrics to a song. Very interesting.

[mz_libbie22]

I remember being very confused about why we had to do it every day, it was such a "chore" to me But the teachers did spend alot of time trying to explain the meanings of the words and we said "indivisable"(sp?) not "under god" which is pretty good for back then I imagine.

edit: oh wait it just came back to me..."one nation under god, indivisable, with blah blah blah". Now I have to try to remember what the original phrase was that "under god" replaced

[mojomom]

My dd 7 is Home schooled now but attended PS for K and 1st grade. We don't say the pledge for religous reasons,are family are Jehovah's Witnesses. Every beginning school year on the open house before school started I would pull the teacher aside explain our religous beliefs and that my DD would not be saying the pledge. She does stand up for the pledge out of respect for her classmates and teachers who participate, but does not say the actaul pledge.
I do know some witness children who don't stand for the pledge, that is what the child feels comfortable with. I gave my dd the choice to either stand or she could sit quietly in her seat, she felt comfortable standing.

Honestly one of the benefits for us of HS'ing is not having to deal with this, but it was a minor thing to deal with also.

If yout alked to your DC teacher about yourf eelings and not wanting your child to participate I am sure they would be okay wiht it. just a thought

[Ravin]

I personally think a certain amount of pride in one's nation (not necessarily its bureacracy or current elected officials, but the ideals and communal identity) is a good thing. My DD will be taught to leave out the "under god" bit, which didn't replace anything, but was added in considerably after the original pledge was adopted.

As for saying it in the classroom, it absolutely is brainwashing and rote memorization both. So is a lot of school.

[2tadpoles]

Originally Posted by kama'aina mama

I was just thinking about this the other day. I was out with my 4 y/o DD and her 5 y/o friend who has started kindergarten. She pointed to a pole displaying the US flag and the Hawai'ian state flag and said "Hey! Those are the flags we say Pledge to every day at kindergarten!" As though she was a little surprised to see them outside her classroom. I told her, "No, you actually only pledge to the one on top... the US flag." She argued with me... so it is clear that it really is just a rote learning/ brainwashing thing...not something she really understands at all.

Well, when I was a little girl going to school in Hawai'i, not only did we say the Pledge every morning, but we also sang the state anthem (Hawai'i Pono'i). It's a pretty little tune, but I have no idea what the words mean, as they're all in Hawaiian.

[mojomom]

I do feel glad I am in this country, it is because of the way this country is, my dd has the option of not saying the Pledge without being persecuted legally. So I do respect very much what this country affords me with regard to my freedom of religion. it was the US courts that gave Witnesses and others the ability to not say The Pledge in school or public forums.

I find it very interesting to hear other reasons why people dont say the Pledge. thank you for sharing.

[guerrillamama]

I plan to public school my ds. I plan to tell him not to Pledge, and to discuss it with him periodically as he grows older, and of course if he ever decides he wants to Pledge I will respect his decision. But the default setting will be "no Pledge."

[Rhonwyn]

So happy to be in Waldorf where they don't learn the pledge until they are older and can understand the words and meaning and then decide for themselves. Words have power. When out in public, I do recite the pledge if it is recited while the kids stand respectfully quiet but I always leave out under G*d. As stated before, it was added much later and messes up the flow of the poem.

[Linda KS]

They say it in scouts, too!

One of my pagan friends whose DS attends a public school just has him leave out the "under god" part. They can't make you say "under god."

We are agnostic. My kids don't go to school but they are in scouts. I told them they could leave out "under god" or just imagine any god that works for them that day. (My 6 year old is really into Thor). We talked about about the flag and its history and symbolism, and about the pledge and what it means. I think there is only so much they can understand about this right now we will we talk about again and again as they get older.

I really love America and feel lucky to live here, but I am not a Christian and wish they would go back to the original pledge!

[Ravin]

I like the Girl Scout Promise and Law. You can literally fill in the blank or leave off on the part about God:

Girl Scout Promise and Law




The Girl Scout Promise and Law are shared by every member of Girl Scouting. The Girl Scout Promise is the way Girl Scouts agree to act every day toward one another and other people, and the Law outlines a way to act towards one another and the world.

The Girl Scout Promise

On my honor, I will try:
To serve God* and my country,
To help people at all times,
And to live by the Girl Scout Law.

The Girl Scout Law

I will do my best to be
honest and fair,
friendly and helpful,
considerate and caring,
courageous and strong, and
responsible for what I say and do,
and to
respect myself and others,
respect authority,
use resources wisely,
make the world a better place, and
be a sister to every Girl Scout.

* The word "God" can be interpreted in a number of ways, depending on one's spiritual beliefs. When reciting the Girl Scout Promise, it is okay to replace the word "God" with whatever word your spiritual beliefs dictate.


That's from the Girl Scouts website.

[moondiapers]

Originally Posted by mz_libbie22

I remember being very confused about why we had to do it every day, it was such a "chore" to me But the teachers did spend alot of time trying to explain the meanings of the words and we said "indivisable"(sp?) not "under god" which is pretty good for back then I imagine.

edit: oh wait it just came back to me..."one nation under god, indivisable, with blah blah blah". Now I have to try to remember what the original phrase was that "under god" replaced

Under God didn't replace anything, it was just squeezed in...

The original pledge...

I pledge alegiance
to the flag
of the United States of America
One nation, for which it stands
indivisable
with liberty and justice for all.

[Greaseball]

They can't make you say "under god."

They can't make you say anything. Nor can they make you stand. A student may choose to stand out of respect (as I did in high school) but also has the right to sit and not say anything. Of course, schools will not tell them this, but if a parent confronts them they will admit it.

Not all public schools do the pledge. None of the schools I went to in my hometown did it. It was only when I moved to a smaller town that it was said.

[Marsupialmom]

I would encourage my child to stand out of respect for other‘s (at least that they must be quite during). I
went to a school that had foreign nationals that did not say the pledge but they stood in respect. We stood and was quite in respect for their pledge/s.

My parents were military and they taught us the same thing.

When I was military we were told/taught how to be respectful during another country’s anthem or pledge. Stand at attention but no saluting.

If you watch foreign ceremony of political figures you will see that they stand and quietly respectful during another country’s pledge/anthem.

It is not showing respect to the flag but to other people. Hopefully it will pay off and others will show respect toward your child. If not that is when you take the high road.

[carolsly]

If you either don't want your child saying the pledge or don't want them saying under God..just tell the teacher. Respecting everyones beliefs is one of the biggest rules at schools right now. Respecting the differences everyone has and enjoying the diversity that it brings is a wonderful thing. If a teacher can help instill that..you're good to go.

I have friends who send their children to Charter schools because they did not want sex ed being taught to their children. If you live in a large enough area, you can find a school that you can feel comfortable with. Here in Alaska charter schools are publicy funded. They are not private schools. Anyone may attend.

Good luck on your quest. If it's something you believe in...stand up for those beliefs. That's what America is all about!

[Cloverlove]

Ds goes to an American PS, but over half the kids are International. It is the school's policy (and often stated) that children DO NOT have to say the Pledge- they don't even have to stand. I told ds that it was up to him if he wanted to say it or not. We went over the Pledge, line-by-line, and I asked if he agreed. He said he he was "OK with it".

I do agree with Ravin- I think pride in one's country (not government) is a good thing. I believe it makes a person more invested in positive change. I do completely disagree with the "under God" addition and hope ds is silent on that part. I'll probably bring it up with him tomorrow, thanks to this thread.

Somewhat OT: I went to Catholic School and I vividly remember reciting the Creed in 6th grade and having it occur to me that I didn't believe ANY of it! My breath still kind-of skips when I think about what a powerful realization that was for me.

[A&A]

Students are not required to say the pledge (as a teacher I would like them to at least be quiet during pledge time), and any school forcing a child to say the pledge would probably find themselves facing a lawsuit.

It's interesting..........before 9/11 we said the pledge once a week, and now (post 9/11), we're supposed to say it twice a week.

[Earthy Mama]

Originally Posted by Greaseball

They can't make you say anything. Nor can they make you stand. A student may choose to stand out of respect (as I did in high school) but also has the right to sit and not say anything. Of course, schools will not tell them this, but if a parent confronts them they will admit it.

Not all public schools do the pledge. None of the schools I went to in my hometown did it. It was only when I moved to a smaller town that it was said.

When I was in high school, a small group of us refused to even stand for the pledge, the teacher finally started giving us demerits! I think we eventually stood, but silently.

As for my dd, she is in kindergarten right now, and they say the pledge every morning. I think that I am going to wait until she is older and can make up her own mind as to whether or not she wants to say it.

[lorijds]

Our school says the pledge every day, as well as the school pledge (which is actually pretty cool). We discussed the pledge, and why *I* don't say it. My oldest chooses to stand respectfully; my youngest chooses to say it (not for the best reasons, but it is her informed choice). If my child wanted to sit in a form of political protest, fine. But otherwise I wish her to stand respectfully, like the other poster said. I, too, love many things about this country; one of them is the professed tolerance of differences. If I or my child doesn't want to say the pledge, fine, we will stand in respect for those who DO feel passionate about saying the pledge, and in repect for our counrty and the ideals of which wa are proud.

I think this is a *good* thing about ps. Learning about civics. I don't think they do a good job in the younger grades about teaching them the reasons behind the pledge. But that's what *I* am there for. Granted, we live in a liberal ara, my kids aren't the only ones not saying the pledge, and the teachers aren't going to give them a hard time. I might be singing a different song if I lived in an area where my kids were getting a hard time from other kids or the administration.