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Is It Just Me, Or Does Anyone Else ...? - Page 4

post #61 of 103
Thread Starter 
Originally Posted by stafl
: :
you either just don't get it, or you are baiting us. Either way, the previous replies have already sufficiently answered your questions. I refuse to get angry at your statements, and am going to give you the benefit of a doubt and not believe that you are trying to anger us. Come back once you have a clue.
None of my posts are meant to make anyone angry, and I find it a little conceded to think that anything I say is meant to anger you.
post #62 of 103
Thread Starter 
Originally Posted by pajara2
I have to say that I, too, get uncomfortable when I see older children breastfeeding. I don't judge the parents, we all make our choices, and for us they are the right choices.

I've read what's been said, and I did breastfeed my first (until 6 mos) and will breastfeed my next (probably also until 6 mos).

My question, I guess, in a way, is this:

I understand that the biological function of the breast is to provide nourishment. BUT I also understand very clearly that the societal (for the most part, although sadly) function of the breast is predominantly sexual. So....how would my son feel when he becomes a teen, and has memories of being 5, 6, even 7 and latched on to my breast? I think if I had actual memories of breastfeeding from my mom at that age I would be TOTALLY grossed out.

As earlier questioned, this isn't based on a report, or study, or article; just based on my opinion and what I would imagine my feelings to be. I think it's admirable that we as mothers make so many decisions based on what is best for our children, if you feel breastfeeding until self weening is best, then I admire you for the sacrifice/gift/decision you have made, whether I understand it or not.
This is my point. I am not trying to debate the nutritonal value of of breast milk. I keep seeing the terms breast milk and breastfeed being used interchangeably, when they are not. They are two different things. So it is great that children are still getting breastmilk as they grow older, because it is good for them. But in MY OPINION, beaing breastfeed as they get older, is more detrimetal than anyone may realize.
post #63 of 103
Thread Starter 
Originally Posted by KristiMetz
First you say that we feel differently because we're nursing and you have never done that. Then, you say that it is unlikely you'll change your mind. I'm confused. Are you just posting in the EN board to try to find people who are likeminded? If so you surely have the wrong board. Try Babycenter at www.babycenter.com, or sheknows at talk.sheknows.com. If you want to find other people who are ignorant of the fact that extended nursing is natural, beneficial, desirable and that there's nothing wrong with it, you'll find people a'plenty on those boards.

I'm afraid I don't see your point. What does a breastfeeding 10 year old have to do with a breastfeeding 3 year old?

This is not a matter of opinion, it is a matter of facts. There is not inherently sexual about breasts; our culture simply happens to see them as sexual objects. Visit the Pygmies in Africa, explain your concerns about extended nursing to them, and then look for bewildered looks on all faces since they haven't been subjected to the same strange cultural brainwashing.

I'm a little confused here because now you're saying that there's nothing wrong with a toddler having breastmilk. The whole point of your thread was that you thought it was weird, gross and inappropriate for a toddler to breastfeed. There aren't many people here who are nursing their 10-year-olds, so I'm not sure what your point is.

You're making an extremely bold statement here. Do you have any evidence or data to support your claim? When have you decided that breastfeeding stops being nurturing and becomes a problem that will manifest itself?

If you have ANY facts or evidence to support your claim that breastfeeding beyond one year is inappropriate, please share them. I'll share the alternate opinions with you :

AAFP recommends nursing for 2 years min.
AAP recommends nursing beyond one year "as long as mutuallly desirable".
WHO recommends nursing for 2 years min.
Anthropologist Kathryn Dettwyler has studied this topic and believes the natural age of weaning is between ages 2 and 7.
First it is unlikely that I will change my mind because I stand firm in my choice, but when I actually do breastfeed I may see, the point of some to still want that closeness with their child.

I am not ignorant to the fact that ignorant of the fact that extended breast milk NOT BREASTFEEDING is natural, beneficial, and desirable. Not at all. But you as many others, are being ignorant to the fact the extended breastfeeding may be detrimental to a child's psychological health.

There is nothing wrong with a toddler having BREASTMILK, but again in MY OPINION there is something wrong with a toddler ebing BREASTFEED. And I do think that it is inappropriate for a child to be BREASTFEED. No maybe there aren't many people nursing 10 years olds, but from what everyone is saying here nothing would be wrong with it. It is nutritional and continues the bond doesn't it?

Truth be told I don't care that people may find something wrong with my opinion. Since I am the person finding something wrong with what theyare doing, I would assume that they would look at me a little bit funny. I could give various examples of this,but it is off topic so I'll leave it alone.

I think breastfeeding will become a problem when a child gets to an age where he or she can recollect, or even ask to be breastfeed.

I have no facts to base any of this on, and I never said I did. I have stated from the start that is is my opinion. I have seen the webpage that you got the references from, and true those are there but the page mostly talks about breastmilk, which is not the issue here.
post #64 of 103
When dd was born I planned to bf for a year. But, when it got to that point, neither of us wanted to give it up! She nursed for almost three years! (mostly just at night after 18 mos. her choice)
Now, ds 13 mos. today! And, I'm completely comfortable with it.
The only "complex" I can see them ending up with, is security!

I would like to add that when I asked dd if she remembered nursing, she said, "No."
post #65 of 103
Thread Starter 
Originally Posted by Meiri
Judging by all the developmentally normal children I've met at these ages, not an issue. I let DS lead the way and he was done at 5. Biologically normal age for stopping is between 2 and 7.

Setting up strawmen is not legitimate discussion. This would not happen with a developmentally normal teenager. I can't speak for moms of children with developmental issues, but I trust that they would make the best decision for themselves and their family. Looking for the vanishly rare exceptions does not strengthen your premise.

No, because you don't have one. Setting up vanishingly rare strawmen to question parenting practices that are within the biological norms does not a legitimate point make.

Too old is when the child no longer wants to. Too old is when mom has nursed for a good length of time-year or two minimum IMO, but any beats none--and has gotten to a point of being tired and fed up with nursing. The thing I think you don't grasp is that nursing a child who's 2 or 3 or 4 or even 5 is absolutely nothing like nursing a newborn. It may not even be daily depending on where the child is in his/her process of growing out of needing it.

Okay what are the biological norms, and how are you sure that these are the norms? The norm for women to start menopause is around 40 or 50, but I know a woman personally (one of my instrutors, as a matter of fact) who had no health problems at all, and started menopause at the age of 19. So I don't care what science says the norms are. Science also says there is no God, but I won't even get started there. I don't really care about how many times a child is breastfeed. In my opinion at a certain age a child having their mother's breast in their mouth is not right and not beneficial, plain and simple.
post #66 of 103
Thread Starter 
Originally Posted by Evergreen
At the age of eight or nine years old, I could explain that I no longer felt comfortable continuing the relationship and the child could comprehend why. That doesn't work in a two year old. Plus very few kids are still nursing at that age. I have never heard of anyone nursing at the age of 14, think about it, would you have wanted to nurse whan you were 14?

What are you saying? THat 15 month old babies have sexual fantasies about their mothers' breasts???? :

Didi you know that Michael Jordan was breastfed for three years, Michael jackson wasn't breastfed at all. Which one do you think had problems that manifested later in life?

I just wanted to reply to the things that I left in the quote quickly.

No I wouldn't want to nurse at 14, but I also have no memories of being breastfeed either. I could compare this to an 11 year old girl who had gotten pregnant by a 25 year old man. Now she found nothing wrong with their relationship. And why is that? Well there could be many reasons, but I think that it had something to do with her step-father molesting her when she was 5 years old.

Who is to say that 15 month olds don't have sexual fantasies are urges. They may be children, but they are also human.

And lastly, I don't remember Micheal Jordan beaing sexually abused by a man, as a child either. Maybe that could have been a contributing factor to Micheal Jackson's problems.
post #67 of 103
Wow Newlife, you have so much to learn and you have such ridgid views its frightening.

My goodness, I really think that you should try to be more neutral in your opinions until you are actually faced with making the desision to wean or not, and when. Parenting is so rarely black and white straight across the board.

I also have a great problem with you posting this on the EBF forum. This is to be a place that is a 'safe' environment for those in support of extended breastfeeding. Which you are clearly not in support of.

To think that a child may be caused damage because of breastfeeding to an age where they can remember the act of being at the breast is simply ignorant. It is also based on the fact that you have sexualized your breasts.

To the moderaters...why do we have to put up with posters who are clearly out to instigate and antagonize and do not subscribe to the ideals of a NFL or AP lifestyle.

Oh the judgement.... :
post #68 of 103

I read some of your other posts before replying to this this thread. You are a younger mom, and while that is not a bad thing, I think the lack of life experience in this situation is making you sound very ignorant. You are making decisions based on something you know nothing about, other than you don't want a child's mouth on your breast past a certain age. Before I became a mother, I wasn't sure how I would feel about it, either, but I at least said I wasn't sure how I would feel about it.

Once you get to the point of being able to breastfeed, you will see that putting a child to your breast is much more natural than hooking up to a pump and transferring milk to a bottle. Or maybe you won't see that. You say it's ok for a toddler to get breastmilk, just not breastFEED, but your inexperience with the situation doesn't let you know how much work it is to pump. Only pumping, not breastfeeding is a good way to lose your milk supply- pumps aren't near as effective.

My kids did wean before they were 2, but they were 20-22 mos. The thing is, they don't flip a switch at a certain age. Maybe you would feel this way even if you were an older mom. I'm not trying to sound patronizing, so please don't take it that way. If you're truly trying to understand, ask questions. If you flat out don't agree with what the mom's here are doing, that's your right, but don't expect anyone to change their minds and agree with you.

If you don't have an open mind, you have every right not frequent the extended breastfeeding board. There are plenty of other forums here at mothering that you may enjoy more.
post #69 of 103
Thank you MDC mom for a great discussion and for some great links. You've been very patient in the face of some very judgmental postings. I've learned a lot too.
post #70 of 103
yeah, I agree with mountainmom. time for the mods to act! I was patient when I thought there was learning going on, and wish pajara2 all the luck in the world...
I have to say that it really doesn't sit well with me to come to one of my favorite places on mothering and be oh so subtly accused of sexually abusing my wonderful, secure child who thinks it's child abuse that her friends were denied nursies so young...
crawling back under the rock I guess I and Delia belong under...sigh
post #71 of 103
OK, so the OP is not only ignorant, but unwilling to be educated. I'm not going to comment on her unfortunate oppinions anymore, but this cracked me up

Originally Posted by newlife
I am glad you and your brother are healthy and happy. But the problem is number one you and your brother were living in a different world when you were 3 years old, not today. And that is where I believe this whole issue lies.
Unless onlyboys grew up in the 1600s, I think their extended nursing would have actually been looked down upon much more than today!

Inspite of statistical and antecdotal evidence to the contrary, newlife, you still hold onto your made up idea that ebfing is psychologically damaging. It is one thing to have your own ideas about when you feel it is appropriate to wean your own children, but it is quite another to come here, to an Extended Nursing forum, call it "gross" and deem it as haveing psychological ramifications later in life just because you have made an uneducated assumption that it is. Sorry, but I have read the rest of your posts, you're certainly no psychologist, I don't think you have a case, it would probably be the most beneficial to quit digging yourself deeper on this issue.
post #72 of 103
Ok you MDC EN moms have been great and very patient here. I hope I can be just as nice. I've read thru this thread and then left it and now I'm back. Should I even bother?

Ok our new poster is not even breastfeeding. wow you sure are judgemental and you haven't even given birth yet. I think all of us felt differently before our births and learned along the way.

2 months pregnant I went to an LLL meeting. I saw toddlers and older children nursing. Was I grossed out? No, but it was something I was certainly not accustomed to and found it a little odd! That would not be me.

Well at the end of this, you will see the ages that my children weaned. I think its wonderful that they look at a breastfeeding relationship and say to themselves how normal it is and how odd that women go to the store and pay so much money for formula when mom makes it for free and it is so good.

My son did not nurse as long but saw his sister nurse for many years. My son remembers me breastfeeding her and my daughter still remembers it very fondly and vividly. She is 8 and he is 11.

Did it damage them. Not at all. They are healthy, energetic, athletic kids. My dd is an A+ student. They both have tons of friends. Sometimes after school it could be very hectic with my kids social lives. There are always a slew of children in my yard. I love it. I don't think my kids were damaged by breastfeeding.

Avg age of nursing worldwide 2-7 years. I think you will find it hard pressed to find a nursing 10 year old. And a teenager, comeone, once they go thru puberty they don't want to even know mom

Working moms who pump: That would also be me. I work 24 hours on 48 hours off. Yes I pumped during my 24 hour shifts. Was it tough, you bet! I'm a firefighter. I pumped regardless of the stress, I pumped and left it all and went to fight a fire, came back finished up. Spent 5 hours at a fire once, wanted to explode, but mangaged to make it back and pump for my baby.

You do what you want to do. this was important to me. I never used formula.
post #73 of 103
[QUOTE=newlife] I have see children countless times, in malls, stores, and restaurants grabbing at their mothers breast or just putting their mouths on their breast at 3 or 4 years old, and that is just ridiculous. QUOTE]

Where do you live! I would love to live in a place like this where moms and children are nursing in malls, stores and restaurants.

I live in one of the biggest cities in the U. S. and I rarely see a little baby nursing let alone an older child of 3 or 4 years old.

Out of all the 3-4 or 5 year olds that I know that have nursed. they tend to nurse pretty infreqeuntly, usually for naps and bedtime. Going to the mall is not a problem for them, but I think its great if they are that comfortable in public with their moms.

So I want to move where you are
post #74 of 103
I just spent the last 45 minutes reading this thread & I had to add my $.02...

newlife, first of all it does seem rather trollish that you'd come to the Extended Breastfeeding forum and ask these questions and then refuse to listen to the answers with respect. If you have such rigid opinions and you disagree with 99.9% of the people here, why argue with us? If you truly want to understand why someone would do extended breastfeeding, ask that, but please leave the prejudice at the door. I once thought nursing a toddler was weird, but now that I'm a mother I don't think it's weird at all.

I once had lots of opinions about motherhood & children before I had my own. Once you have your own child it's very likely you'll be amazed how much your mind will change.

Good luck to you. I hope you try to open your mind a bit--for your child's sake.

mamadawg--(nursing two (almost) 15 month olds (who know how to lift up my shirt to get to the boob & insist on nursing whilst standing much of the time) and has no plans to quit anytime soon.)
post #75 of 103
Originally Posted by newlife
Okay is it just me or does anyone else find something wrong with breastfeeding after one year? I mean, continuing to give a child breast milk after a year is fine, but actually breast feeding. I have read stories on this board and countless others, about toddlers still being breastfeed. Not only do I find something wrong with a toddler being breast feed at 2,3, or 4 but I find something very wrong with a parent not having a problem with it. It is just my opinion, but I really think that children can develop a complex from this. I have see children countless times, in malls, stores, and restaurants grabbing at their mothers breast or just putting their mouths on their breast at 3 or 4 years old, and that is just ridiculous. I do plan on beast feeding, and mostly because of the bond that it creates, but after a year I think the mother child bond is well established and their is really no reason for actual breastfeeding to continue. I mean is it really okay to brestfeed a toddler. I mean no offence to anyone but I find this totally unappropriated. I am sure I will hear a lot about this, but it is just my opinion.
On these boards?

Breastmilk continues to offer nutrition as well as anti-bodies and protects a baby against possible food allergies far beyond one year.

Breastfeeding isn't at all about the bond at least it never was to me. It is about giving your child the ideal food and the presence of anti-bodies in BM.

YES! It is *really ok* to bf a toddler. The American Academy of Pedriatics, the World Health organization and countless other medical associations support EN. Mothering Magazine that owns this board is also staunchly pro-EN.

I didn't wean until well after my child's third birthday and it was a choice made by BOTH of us.

Pumping breastmilk works differently for each woman. I nursed for three years as I stated and like my sister who nursed for over ten years (three children...didn't nurse a ten year old) Neither of us can pump. We do not get more than an ounce from pumping, for many it just isn't an option.

You are making assumptions that anyone can pump when that simply is not at all the case. It isn't even a minority of women who don't get anything from a pump, many do not. There is a difference between the pumping and the way your individual child may nurse from the breast. Babies are experts at nursing and they can get more than a pump anyways.

it would be easy at this point to say maybe I didn't have milk at that point. My child (probably due to possible food allergies) exclusively nursed well past 18 months. This is not uncommon she was just completley uninterested in food and refused many things offered to her.

There is nothing wrong with nursing past one year. If you have concerns I would recommend speaking to a psychiatrist about it as most agree that BF is best.
post #76 of 103
I just have to pop back and add that there has been at least one study done on breastmilk that demonstrates that it changes to meet a child's needs based on what is in the child's saliva on the mother's breast! so, switching to exclusively pumping and not nursing and giving bm in a bottle would not produce the same result. Just food for thought. (I don't have the reference at hand - lost it when my computer crashed about a month ago, but will try to find it)
post #77 of 103
Newlife - this has been touched upon, but bears repeating. Attempt to reserve judgment for the time being - give birth, become a mother, nurse your baby, and check back here after a year. Until then, you have no foundation for your statements. Once you're a mother, once you've nursed your child, then I would give more respect to your opinions of nursing mothers...but you're not there yet. I wish you a healthy pregnancy, a safe labor, and a wonderful baby. Best of luck with everything!!!
post #78 of 103
Also, this is not a debate board. It is inappropiate to post in the Extended Breastfeeding boards at Mothering to say you find it ridiculous and unhealthy.

The mothers who are nursing past one year have all the science and medical organizations on their side.

Mothering is not a place to debate BF or EN as Mothering fully supports BF and EN.

I suggest you do some reading here as well as on other sites for more information. Condemning mothers who are EN is not ok at Mothering. This is a BF and EN friendly site.

Should you have questions I would advise you put it more delicately and in the form of a questions. Opinions condemning EN mothers will not be hosted at this site.

Since you must be new..I will point out my name has the word "moderator" under it.

post #79 of 103
you want the evidence? We got evidence on our side, not just societal prejudices and opinions. Try these links for starters, and I'll find you some more...
bunch of really good links at that site!
"Parents and health professionals need to recognize that the benefits of breastfeeding (nutritional, immunological, cognitive, emotional) continue as long as breastfeeding itself does, and that there never comes a point when you can replace breast milk with infant formula, cows' milk or any other food, or breastfeeding with a pacifier or teddy bear, without some costs to the child."

-- KA Dettwyler, "Beauty and the Breast" from Breastfeeding: Biocultural Perspectives, 1995, p. 204.
The health benefits of breastfeeding extend far past weaning. As researchers look at the various factors associated with different diseases, they often find that children and adults who were breastfed as infants are less likely to experience problems with chronic diseases. In some cases, even minimal amounts of breastfeeding may provide some protection against disease in later life, but usually the longer a baby is breastfed the greater the protective effect.
Women who breastfeed reduce their risk of developing breast cancer by as much as 25 percent. The reduction in cancer risk comes in proportion to the cumulative lifetime duration of breastfeeding. That is, the more months or years a mother breastfeeds, the lower her risk of breast cancer.
We urge mothers to think in terms of years, not months, when contemplating how long to nurse. Breastfeeding is a long-term investment in your child. You want to give your baby the best emotional, physical, and mental start. Extended breastfeeding is nature's way of filling your baby's need for intimacy and appropriate dependency on other people. If these needs are met early on, your child will grow up to be a sensitive and independent adult. We have noticed that children not weaned before their time are:

more independent and self-confident
Gravitate to people rather than things
Are easier to discipline
Experience less anger
Radiate trust

Former Surgeon General, Dr. Antonia Novello, proclaimed: "It's the lucky baby, I feel, who continues to nurse until he's two." A baby's sucking need lessens sometime between nine months and three years. The age at which this need lessens is individual, yet very few babies are emotionally filled and ready to wean before a year. Have confidence in your intuition. While this beautiful breastfeeding relationship may seem like it will never end, you are laying a solid foundation for the person your child will later become. Cutting corners now will only create problems in the future.

MDC is not the place to come and question extended nursing in an antagonistic fashion. If your questions are sincere, you sure have a funny way of asking them. I think maybe the best thing you could do for yourself as an expectant mother and for your unborn child, right now is to get yourself a subscription to Mothering magazine, or at least read the articles available online. Really now, read the information at the links I posted. If after reading them, you still have questions, please feel free to ask them, but don't tell me how wrong I am when you really don't have any evidence for that opinion other than your own misguided prejudices.
post #80 of 103
I feel this conversation has been *fairly* respectful thus far and so would like to ask a question.

Newlife, you have admitted over and over that you have no facts, no experience, etc... but that "in your opinion" the many facts (along with personal experience) that have been presented are wrong. Could you please at least find medical, psycological or anthropological information backing up your position?


I doubt after, nursing for a year that a mother won't be able to pump her breasts.
I am sure you can find many other mothers than I to tell you that pumping is a *skill*, one that not every woman can perform with the same competency. I, for one, would not have been able to provide either of my children with the amount of bmilk their bodies asked for at one year by pumping. I was able to pump small amounts while they were very young, but virtually nothing as they aged.

But the fact remains, that as the biological norm, I do not need to find a reason to continue nursing, I would need to find reasons to stop.

And in my opinion a baby becomes a toddler at 2 years old, a toddler becomes a child at 4 years old, a child becomes a teenager at 13 years old, and a teenager beomes an adult at about 20 or 21 years old.
So, if you consider babyhood to last at least 23 months, doesn't it make sense that *IN YOUR OWN OPINION* nursing should last at least that long as well?

I think breastfeeding will become a problem when a child gets to an age where he or she can recollect, or even ask to be breastfeed.
What do you mean by "ask to be breastfed"? Do you mean actually state clearly, "Excuse me mother, but may I please nurse at your bosum for a short time?" How about whimpering, smacking lips, saying "nu nu"...? What about children who will never gain the ability to "talk"--- should they be nursed until adulthood. Or on the other side of that coin, the very rare child who can speak before 3 months?

You are attempting to set an arbitrary stopping point on a process that should be individually controlled. Just as will *all* milestones, there is a biologically normal range. Research suggests that the range for this is 2-7 years and 2-4 years being average in western society.

I have seen the webpage that you got the references from, and true those are there but the page mostly talks about breastmilk, which is not the issue here.
Some benifits, such as jaw development & specific immunity production are *only* possible through direct mom to baby contact. I would very much like you to reference a site that seperates the attributes of *bmilk* and *bfeeding.* I think you will find that the assumption is that a child is still actively Bfeeding.

No I wouldn't want to nurse at 14, but I also have no memories of being breastfeed either. I could compare this to an 11 year old girl who had gotten pregnant by a 25 year old man. Now she found nothing wrong with their relationship. And why is that? Well there could be many reasons, but I think that it had something to do with her step-father molesting her when she was 5 years old.
I think you should really reconsider your "examples" unless you mean to be drawing comparisons between sustained bfeeding and child molestation.

If there truly were a factual concern with sustained nursing, don't you think you could find one child's health organization that stated that. It has been studied: nursing BY ITSELF is not harmful. Yes, there could be some horrible parents out there who *happen to nurse* but that is not the same thing.
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