what is clw?

[nichole]

i googled child led weaning and found this article. you should check it out.

http://www.lalecheleague.org/llleade...rApr87p23.html

sometimes i'm not sure if i'm doing clw or not. i want ds to wean himself but i do let him have water constantly throughout the day, offer him lots of solids, don't offer/don't refuse, etc. sometimes i hear ppl say their baby weaned himself at 6 months and i have to wonder if it wasn't just a preference to a faster flow or a nursing strike or something. i just ordered how weaning happens and mothering your nursing toddler. what do you guys think of the article? what do you think clw means and who can post here?

thanks!

[MamaAllNatural]

The most important aspect of child led weaning is that the final weaning is up to the child. Other than that there is a lot of grey area. Of course giving the child food and water (unless it's a young baby) is CLW. After a year or so they *need* food and water as well as the breastmilk. If you are committed to bfing as long as your child needs in, no matter what age that may be, then you are doing CLW. HTH

[DaryLLL]

Was this a child-led weaning?

My 2nd dd was a very very spirited, kind of bullheaded 3 1/2 yo. OK, very bull headed. I was 7-8 mos pg. I had had extremely sore nipples all throughout pregnancy.

At this point in my preganancy, my breasts were pretty much dry. I was fine to let my dd bf 2x/day.

But the problem was, she insisted (as only a spirited child can do) to bf 3 or more times a day. And esp at night. She had no concept of "chis chis are sleeping, wait til the sun comes up." This did not fly--at all. More frequent nursing would cause me agony. I would say it made my nipples feel like hamburger.

So, b/c I just couldn't take it anymore, and she was unable to understand limits, I told her we would have to quit. We discussed to for a week. She seemed OK with it.

The first night she cried for 2 minutes.

The next night she whimpered for 15 seconds.

The next night and forever after that, she had no issues and started sleeping through the night for the first time since she was 8 mos old.

She was much much happpier to go cold turkey, making me know this was the best decision. As a spirited child, she could not go with the grey area of me setting limits. She was better off psychologically without any bfing and just switching to cuddling.

I was willing to let her tandem when ds was born but she never asked.

How does the CLW crowd handle pregnancy weaning when mom is in extreme pain (and the child is spirited)?

[mom2threenurslings]

Originally Posted by DaryLLL

How does the CLW crowd handle pregnancy weaning when mom is in extreme pain (and the child is spirited)?

In my opinion, it was mother-led weaning because your child still had the desire to nurse and you chose to wean. I'm not saying that it was wrong for you to wean in that circumstance, just that it wasn't CLW.

I can only answer for myself, so here goes...
If I was in extreme pain while nursing through pregnancy, I would first do everything I could to lessen the pain and continue nursing. If I exhausted every possibility and couldn't handle the pain ... and I decided that there was no other way than to wean, I would, in that situation, have to abandon CLW and wean the child. It would break my heart, but if it would be a choice between a loving nurturing relationship with my child without nursing and a negative, horrible nursing relationship with my child, I'd have to choose to wean.

[callmemama]

DaryLLL, I have one child so I've never been through what you just described. I'm pretty sure its much easier to CLW with one! In any case, it sounds like you did what worked best for your sanity and your relationship with your daughter - does it really matter how anyone else "defines" it?

[callmemama]

Nichole, I've heard people say (not in so many words) that they use nursing as a last resort. They'll offer solid food, water, toy, anything and everything before they'll nurse. Then they say baby self-weaned at 13 months (or whenever). That imo, is not CLW. But like the pp said, you do need to offer water and solids eventually! The don't offer/don't refuse was never an issue here, because ds was always asking! :LOL

[UrbanPlanter]

DaryLLL, it sounds to me like you encouraged night weaning, but not day weaning. It also sounds like your dd was ready and maybe needed a little push. Since she only fussed once or twice very briefly, maybe she was ready to nightwean. I really wouldn't worry about it, if I were you, bc it sounds like it all worked out fine for both of you.

[DaryLLL]

I'm not worried. LOL. It was 13 yrs ago. I figure, it was a natural weaning, b/c I was naturally pg and kids are meant to have siblings. While missing the milk was not ideal for her nutritionally and immunologically, psychologically she was much much better off and plus we all got (one month of) better sleep.

Then her brother was born and I didn't sleep for 3 mos. I was glad she was able to sleep all night with her dad and siser at that point b/c I was up and down all night. Ds wouldn't even sleep lying down in the fam bed. I had to camp out in the lv rm with him and spend half the night in the rocking chair or walking, the other half on the couch.

[MamaMonica]

DaryLLL, I think what you did was natural weaning. I don't think things like this are a problem.

I have seen mother cats on the farm swipe at their babies when they tried to nurse and the mama cat was pregnant (OK-my parents did not spay or neuter but that was then). I think nature has an intelligence to it. I don't mean to be disrespectful to anyone. I just think there is a gray area and this makes me think a few people might be excluded here.

I cut down on nursings during my pregnancy with my first child, and she did wean on her own but I definitely put her off sometimes when she asked to nurse and it was painful. I'm sure without the pregnancy she would have nursed longer.

[UrbanPlanter]

monnie I totally agree with your post

[nichole]

the responses have been interesting. i guess i am not sure if i will do clw or not and am still a little confused about the term. not that it matters b/c i know i will do what it is best for my son. i think i am torn about using nursing "as a last resort" as someone mentioned. i never would have done that when ds was younger, but lately i find myself replacing nursing very very very gradually w/ food, books, water, etc. i think that is normal though, isn't it? i think i *could* nurse for thirst by encouraging him to take little sips or nurse for every boo boo, but i don't really see the need to do that anymore (not that i would ever refuse but he just doesn't seem to need it anymore). am i clear as mud? :LOL

[Victorian]

I get what you are saying Nicole. I think to a certain extent most of us do that as our nursling gets older. For example "yes, you can nurse but I need to ____ first" or "you just nursed, are you hungry? want a slice of cheese?" that sort of thing. I don't think that it disqualifies as CLWer () I think that it is a natural progression to the baby growing older. I know for one if I didn't do these things, my son would be permanently attached. To me CLW is just like every thing else in AP - it is about responding to your child and acknowleding that he/she is a person with needs and wants and desires that need to be acknowledged and respected.

V.

[mother_sunshine]

I had a hard time taking the article totally seriously because of it's title. Baby-led weaning??? That in itself made me see that this is purely just one mother's opinion, not to be taken as a definitive definition (though I would probably scoff at anyone's definitive set-in-stone definition of CLW). I skimmed through the article and there were things I agreed and disagreed with. I think that is basically how CLW is. We are all diverse in our experiences and opinions, whether it be ideals on limit-setting or when to start solids, etc., but I think we all are in agreement that CLW entails the child ultimately deciding when to completely stop nursing. And it involves a huge amount of trust in the child and her/his needs.

[DaryLLL]

mother sunshine, I want to ask you a question. Do you think child led weaning is always the best for every child? I see you only have one child. This might be a ridiculous question but, did you not get pg again just so she could completely lead the way in weaning?

It seems to me pregnancy foils many women's attempts to do CLW.

If a child weans herself while mom is pg b/c of lowered supply or funny taste, or b/c mom has shortened and limited feeds to the point where it is just not very attractive, does this count as a true child led weaning? The child might only be say, 18 mos. She may not be truly ready to wean and of course, an 18 mo would benefit hugely from more breastmilk.

[callmemama]

Originally Posted by DaryLLL

I'm not worried. LOL. It was 13 yrs ago. I figure, it was a natural weaning, b/c I was naturally pg and kids are meant to have siblings.

DaryLLL, I'm not sure why you even asked our opinion if you're not worried. CLW is not for everyone. As for this comment about "kids are meant to have siblings" and asking other posters if they didn't get pregnant just so they could CLW - well, I find that to be a bit rude. Some of us have only one child (some by choice; some not), and some of us have multiple children. At least one of our CLW'ers tandem nursed through pregnancy. So I'm just not sure what your point is...

[DaryLLL]

Originally Posted by callmemama

DaryLLL, I'm not sure why you even asked our opinion if you're not worried.

I am asking out of honest curiosity. Just wondering what the parameters and perceived benefits are.

CLW is not for everyone.

When you say that, do you mean CLW is not right for every mother, but is right for every child?

As for this comment about "kids are meant to have siblings" and asking other posters if they didn't get pregnant just so they could CLW - well, I find that to be a bit rude.

it was an honest question I had for mother_s. I prefaced it with the adjective: "perhaps ridiculous."

It is natural for kids to have siblings. Most kids do. (I am certainly not saying it is wrong to have only one child!)

It is much easier to do CLW or at least nurse much longer, while not pg than while pg, esp if you have extremely sore nipples the whole pregnancy, as I did.

It was beneficial for my child to wean when I was pg, givne the circumstances. She was happier and calmer when I requested her to wean than she was when I was forced to set what were to her arbitrary limits.

I also differentiate between habit and need. My final child was nursing for 2 mins at bedtime when he was 4 1/2. Sometimes he would go to bed without nursing. When I suggested he might want to give up that feed, he agreed willingly. But it was my idea. I introduced him to the concept. So this was not child-led but respectful. Yet, as he agreed and was not traumatized, I did not see any harm arose from it. I truly believe if a child has a need, he will object strongly to having it not met. If he has a habit, he will give it up easily.

I think it just didn't occur to him to not nurse until I suggested it.

Just like some kids might not think to poop in the potty unless mom suggested it. It is not that they "need" to poop in the diaper, but that they aren't aware of other options.

I hope that was clearer.

[Mom4tot]

I will try to answer from my experience with having one child for almost 5 years before having my son.

We tried to get pregnant for awhile before I actually did. Ellie was around 3 3/4 when I concieved and had an ectopic pregnancy. It was devastating, but I didn't blame nursing even though I was worried about what to do. As I have said so many times before, Ellie was an avid nurser, very attached and close. It didn't occur to me to wean her, but set a limit at that time. She was sleeping all night, and had been for a long time..but would wake around 5:30 or 6...and wake me to nurse. I began to ask her if she could either try to rest awhile longer or get up and play for a bit before waking me. I noticed a big difference in my attitude when I slept until 6:30, 7 instead of 5:30...btw, she nursed for a long time in the morning, it wasn't really an option to nurse for a few minutes and go back to sleep.

When I conceived again, I was sore and tired. I read a lot of stuff about nursing and miscarriages, etc. I really knew that we could do this, and I had to follow my heart and not the doctors advice to wean right away.

Ellie began nursing for a few minutes periodically through the day, at night she nursed, came off and went to sleep in my arms. She nursed to sleep the night Ben was born (my water broke). If she had been less interested in nursing, she may have weaned herself...but I have heard of many children weaning during pregnancy only to resume nursing, if allowed, once the baby is born. That can be a great time because siblings bond over nursing.

I have a close friend who was nursing her dd (6 mos younger than mine) when our girls were 18 months old...babies. We all went camping together for 5 days. I layed down with dd to nurse to sleep. Often dd couldn't sleep because the other adults were talking or playing games close by in the cabin. My friend nursed her dd for a minute (literally) and put her in the pack and play to sleep. Sometimes she cried for a minute, sometimes not. During the day, Ellie nursed a few times, for up to 20 to 30 minutes...didn't seem like a lot because we were hiking and swimming, nursing was always our way to reconnect and relax. My friends dd would nurse for a minute and friend would get impatient...and start adjusting her bra and say, "Ok, that's enough! Let's do something else."

Friends dd "weaned herself" a few month later. My dd was still nursing, same as always. Was friends dd's weaning child led or mother led?

I use this as an illustration of all the subtle and not so subtle actions and reactions that occur between mother and child. Each relationship is dynnamic and each child is different.

[MamaAllNatural]

DaryLLL, I see where you're coming from and I think you're being misread as offensive. Trust me gals, if she's trying to offensive, you'll know! : Sorry, couldn't resist. :

Originally Posted by DaryLLL

If a child weans herself while mom is pg b/c of lowered supply or funny taste, or b/c mom has shortened and limited feeds to the point where it is just not very attractive, does this count as a true child led weaning?

Unless the child had a bottle or pacifier that she switched to for suckling comfort instead then I would say yes. As so many tandem nursing mamas can attest to, if the child isn't ready to wean they won't care that there's no milk or that it tastes funny now. DD didn't even slow down at all. The closeness and the suckling was very important to her, though she was a bit dissapointed at there being no milk left (and ecstatic when it all came in after I had the baby! :LOL).

I absolutely do think it's harder to nurse through a pregnancy than not. I think a lot of mothers who lose their milk in pregnancy limit nursings or shorten the lenth of the nursing to make it more comfortable for them. I can also see how sometimes mother led weaning can be natural and honestly, I'm always just happy beyond belief when any woman nurses for at least two years.

Oh, and ITA Joan that the situation you described above was not natural weaning. The mother had a lot to do with it. I think DaryLLL has posted some awesome articles on that very topic and I am happy every time because I worry that some mothers here might be unknowingly doing this with their relatively young babies. It's probably personal for me though since my first self weaned at only 12 months. I think part of it is that I fed him so damn much food at such a young age. He had a nursing strike that lasted so long he forgot how to nurse. He never had a need to suckle anything again (I never gave him a bottle or pacifier and he never sucked his thumb), and I have no doubt he would've been on the early end of the CLW spectrum but I think if he hadn't had so much food before being a year old, he may have nursed a little longer.

[MamaMonica]

Originally Posted by Victorian

I know for one if I didn't do these things, my son would be permanently attached. To me CLW is just like every thing else in AP - it is about responding to your child and acknowleding that he/she is a person with needs and wants and desires that need to be acknowledged and respected.

V.

I agree. My kids would also be permanently attached without me offering them some food. Neither of mine liked solid food and are/were marathon nursers. I saw friends children nurse 5 minutes at a time and be done. My ds almost three still needs 20 minutes to an hour of nursing at a pop and will scream if he gets less. He nurses every hour. I get an hour on, and hour off-this all night as well.

This is with limits. Without them... just put me in an assylum. Nursing has been a hard road for me, and I am pro-nursing but can't glorify it. I accept that some mothers will set limits and this will maybe result in the child weaning sooner than if she would have had unlimited nursing.

I can only honor part of my child's needs to nurse.

[mother_sunshine]

Originally Posted by DaryLLL

mother sunshine, I want to ask you a question. Do you think child led weaning is always the best for every child? I see you only have one child. This might be a ridiculous question but, did you not get pg again just so she could completely lead the way in weaning?

It seems to me pregnancy foils many women's attempts to do CLW.

If a child weans herself while mom is pg b/c of lowered supply or funny taste, or b/c mom has shortened and limited feeds to the point where it is just not very attractive, does this count as a true child led weaning? The child might only be say, 18 mos. She may not be truly ready to wean and of course, an 18 mo would benefit hugely from more breastmilk.

DaryLLL, I appreciate your open honest questions. I won't take offense because I don't believe that is what you intended. I think it is important to discuss openly and respectfully to help gain understanding (for both of us).

Your question is a subjective one, so I'm not sure why you are asking me what I think. But I'll answer honestly. Yes, ideally, I think CLW is best for every child. But because breastfeeding is a relationship between mother and child, what's best for the mother factors in also. If breastfeeding reaches a point where it is not healthy for the mother (whether it be physical, mental or emotional) then it may come to a point where CLW is not best for the child if it negatively affects the child's relationship with her mother. So then my answer would be, no I don't think CLW is right for every child. But that is why we are here, that is why we have this forum, to help prevent that from happening if at all possible. We are here to help give one another support and encouragement to continue, assuming that is what everyone wants if they are in the CLW forum, and provide alternatives to weaning if the mother is experiencing difficulties. We aren't here to make mothers who PLW their child feel guilty. We are here to honor CLW and to help make it so. CLW doesn't mean the mother becomes a martyr, it is just as wonderful for us as it is for our child. It is an amazing connection, an amazing journey, and something to take pride in.

As for the question of having one child, no that is not why I have one child. I have one child because that is what feels right for us as a whole. We are all happy this way. Every mother hopefully does what is right for her family as a whole.

I have to go because my mother is visiting and is waiting for me to take her somewhere, but I'll be back later to continue the discussion and read everyone else's response.