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Soy is bad for you, Soy is bad for your children - Page 2

post #21 of 139
Anecdotal evidence annoys me, but since we are offering it on the meat-eating side, here's mine on the vegetarian side.

My whole life, I suffered from fatigue to the point that most afternoons I felt like I HAD to go to bed. I was sickly. Got the flu or a cold every year. I didn't have that gusto for life that enables us to do the things that wind up being the best things in life.

UNTIL... my husband suggested, a few years ago, that we give up meat for Lent. I'm not religious, but I said I'd do it with him, sure. Well, I couldn't believe how much better I felt. And I knew NOTHING about eating healthy. We are talking white flour, packaged goods that probably had hydrogenated oils, the whole nine yards. Still, even as unhealthy as my diet was, when I gave up meat, I started feeling so much better.

Since then, I have been on a road of learning more and more about nutrition. The better I eat, the better I feel, of course. And I don't rely heavily on tofu, either. We do eat some fermented soy products. But even at times in the past when I have relied heavily on soy, I still felt better than I ever, EVER did as a meat-eater.

I have accomplished things in my life since going vegetarian that would have been out of the question for me before - become a runner, built and opened a used bookstore, remodeled a house from top to bottom, worked jobs without fear of having to call in sick all the time, etc.

Like I said, I know this is anecdotal, but since we had the "I feel better as meat-eater" side, I thought I'd offer my vegetarian miracle story.

There is lots of money to be made in the food industry. Let's keep our wits about us and think about WHY particular people offer the "facts" that they do. Let's think about the fact that it makes good sense to eat vegetables, or, if your family needs it, meat that wasn't injected with hormones and antiobiotics and was humanely raised. It makes good sense to eat things that don't have a fancy package and a billionaire behind them. It makes good sense to eat things as they grew out of the ground, and are beautiful, and weren't sprayed with man-made chemicals, or fortified with preservatives. In other words, eat what nature provides - which in my mind, does not include an antibiotic steak in a restaurant, or an estrogen chicken breast from Wendy's.

And for me, that has changed my life! Yay!
post #22 of 139
Ooh, very good Bookworm! I totally agree, and I AM a meat eater by tried and tested necessity. You said what I was thinking much better than I did, everyone needs different things. I seriously suffer on any other diet than what I do right now, which is lowfat, high nutrient whole foods..
post #23 of 139
To the OP, I am sorry to hear about your families health concerns. I know it is nice to label problems, as it is helpful way of coping with them, but to blame soy for the issues your mom is suffering is an easy scape goat for a possibly multiple factors that can contribute to an individuals health. I am listing some links below, and the one with hoax in the site name addresses this issue. I do sincerely hope her health improves regardless of her dietary decisions.
lilhomegrownmama- I so agree with you about processed vegetarian foods.

I have some qualms with the research on soy presented by Weston Price. I aalso think they have an overly obviuos agenda of pushing meat and dairy. If any industry is suspect, look no further than meat and dairy. Start looking up the statistics of cancer or hormone disruption in relation to meat and dairy consumption.

http://web.aces.uiuc.edu/faq/faq.pdl?project_id=5

http://hoaxinfo.com/soya.htm

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache...oy+myths&hl=en

http://www.asaasc.com/myths.htm

http://www.soytoy.com/soyvey.html

http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/2000/300_soy.html

http://www.vegsource.com/talk/soy/index.html
post #24 of 139
My vegetarian friend was told by her doctor to avoid soy while pregnant because it would make the baby's penis small - I kid you not. He said soy does something to the hormones. I thought that was ridiculous until I found the same info elsewhere.
??
Glad my baby was a girl!
post #25 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by vegiemom
regarding formula- is soy that much worse than regular formula?
Yes, it is.


Babies do not yet have a matured blood-brain barrier. Meaning-whatever they are given in large amounts, unnaturally-can actually make deposits in the brain. Which is one reason why vaccinations are so potent and potentially harmful.
Soy is unusually hig in manganese-a trace mineral. It has been noted in one particular study(can't seem to find it right now-but Google it and I'm sur eyou'll find it-I'm in a hurry)that found workers in themanganese mines suffered depression, irrational behavior, anger problems, etc, etc because of overexposure to the mineral they were mining. It was also noted that infants given soy formula grew up to be kind of violent, or have issues wth that.
So, saying that- I drank tons of soymilk for years, and ate tofu. In fact, I ws a veggitarian for 5 or 6 years. But now that I have learned the effects of soy-which there are many- I do not drink it anymore. I eat tempeh on occasion.

I feel it is better to not put myself or my children at harm, given the facts.
post #26 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by sleepless-in-texas
My vegetarian friend was told by her doctor to avoid soy while pregnant because it would make the baby's penis small - I kid you not. He said soy does something to the hormones. I thought that was ridiculous until I found the same info elsewhere.
??
Glad my baby was a girl!
Ha ha :LOL I can relate!MIL was the worst to me about soy.
I have since heeded some of her advice- but lets just say, my baby is..ahem..well enowed
More so than his non-soy-drinking-mom cousin, who is quite small

I guess I proved her wrong!But seriously, Soy does mess with hormones, and I feel so much better not drinking it. I feel much more stable.
I think people can say it is conspiracy theory and whatnot-but you can easily turn the tables and say that about the soy industry. I mean, you have this bean that can be touted as a "miracle bean". It is cheap, easy to produce products from in mass quantity-why not make big bucks off of it and fool the people. The ancient chinese knew better! And- the stir the pot more, edemame is not good for you at all. In fact I think it was recorded as unedible in ancient chinese writings.It wouldn't surprise me.

I think we need to take our blinders off and look at the real hazards in our health food stores as well as our local mainstream market.
post #27 of 139
It would be so nice if we could all celebrate our similarities instead of argue about our differences! Most of us on MDC recognize the importance of organic, whole foods - that's a big deal! And while I don't consume animal products, I have gotten some wonderful recipes from the NT people (my dh absolutely LOVES Xenabyte's ww tortilla recipe!). Am I too idealistic to hope we can share the positives of our different journeys/views of healthy eating?
post #28 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by vegiemom
Maybe it's that being a vegetariAN is not just my "diet"... it's my belief system and my way of life and part of my moral make-up. Killing to live...hmmmmmmmmmmmmm doesn't work for me!
Good for you that being a vegetariAN works for you, both ethically and physically. It didn't work for me or my family, and I am a bit weary of hearing that people like me "didn't try hard enough" or aren't ethically "committed" enough despite extraordinary evidence to the contrary. I find it very ironic that when I came forth with my health problems on such a "compassionate" diet, that these people on the same diet were the ones bashing me the hardest (but thankfully not all!). Apparently fellow humans don't deserve the same compassion as animals.

Vegiemom, I have singled you out because repeatedly, you continue to bash others who are questioning their veg*n diets because they are suffering health problems. Have you had your b12 and other nutrient levels checked lately? I am totally being serious. You have posted previously about your depression and feelings of being overwhelmed, and that coupled with your angry posts towards the veg*ns thinking of adding animal products has caused me to be concerned about your health.

For me, lacto-ovo vegetarianism would not work for me ethically because I feel that eggs and milk are in some ways worse than meat (because not all meat is factory farmed), and even if I were able to get past my philosophical reasonings on this, I would never use it as grounds to feel morally superior to other humans. If I wanted to be bashed about my beliefs, then I'd go hang out at Babycenter, not MDC.

We all are different, and no one diet works for all. <now where is that peace emoticon?>
post #29 of 139
toraji, the op was able to express her belief. Accordding to civmom511, "When you eat good, whole food, the way God intended food to be, new fangled man made things like soy food products kind of become a non-issue." Why can't vegiemom counter with hers? Why are you making medical diagnosis of a singled out individual because it really lends nothing to this otherwise interesting debate. Please also note that I don't mind either way if you eat meat or not, and I don't think any one was criticising you for deciding to.
post #30 of 139
melissa17s, I have absolutely no problem with people expressing their opinions in a rational manner. But I have a very big problem with people bashing others for their beliefs without giving a reasonable explanation as to why their beliefs are incorrect.

I was being serious about getting nutritional levels checked. I had a MAJOR shift in my depression and anger when I started eating differently. So I thought that this might have been something that she'd not thought of. It was such a relief to realize that my grouchiness was something that I could control, and not embedded in my personality. I'm not telling her to eat meat, I'm saying, this may be something you may want to explore. Definitely not a medical diagnosis by any means, especially since I am no expert on these sorts of things.

BTW, I sent you a PM.
post #31 of 139
Just FYI, anyone who is interested: One of the biggest contributing factors to my depression was extremely low levels of amino acids. The lab clinician was shocked at the results. I had a custom supplement blended and felt better within about three days and better than I had in years within a week. That was Feb of this year. By Christmas I had gotten off of the supplement completely and now I am better than ever -- better than before the pregnancy and any other time in my life. It's fantastic. So my point is, if anyone reading this is concerned about deficiencies, there are tests for them and there could be some pretty quick results for you. Not every analysis would necessitate giving up a vegetarian diet either (and some would say none would), so it's not like you have to make that decision before getting tested. In this toxic and soil-depleted world, we should probably all have tests done regularly.
post #32 of 139
Here's my amino acids story that I should update:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...ids+depression
post #33 of 139
wow, people sure get fiesty when it comes to food

regarding the soy issue:
my personal opinion is that some soy is okay. I do not think processed soy is good (fake meats, most soymilks, soy oils, etc)... occassional fermented soy or edamame should be fine for people who are not sensative or allergic to soy.

I was raised a vegetarian and later found after years of light headedness, fatigue, lack of motivation, etc that I do much much better eating a diet of whole foods that includes lots of lean protiens, especially organic meats... I also need a lot of green foods and fish oils or my energy plummets.

Just as others have already said, we all have unique dietary needs. Let's please be respectful and kind with eachother in regards to our unique needs. No One diet is the answer for Everyone!!

Some people thrive on a vegan diet, others become depleted... some people feel great eating meat, others suffer unless vegetarian... some people are prone to allergies, wether its dairy, soy, peanuts, shellfish, eggs, wheat, etc... or are just super sensative, to sweets, starches, caffiene, citrus, nightshades, spicy foods, etc...

About soy: it is from this earth, it is an abundant plant, I just cannot believe it is 100% bad. There is a reason it grows here.
I think it's been grossly overproduced and too often overprocessed... but I still believe a bit of soy in moderation is okay.
post #34 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by AllyRae
Mothering actually did an article on this a few months back...maybe 2 issues ago? There were a lot of reasons mothering mentioned why you should eliminate or reduce soy, especially in children's diets.
this is the soy article that mothering printed... http://www.mothering.com/articles/gr...soy_story.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
i like what susun weed has to say about soy.
Quote:
To summarize: traditional fermented soy products, especially when made with organic beans, are beneficial in the diet when combined with rice, sea foods, and fermented vegetables. The value of other soy products is questionable at best, disease causing at worst. The use of soy as a primary protein source is misguided.
http://www.zenzibar.com/Articles/issoysafe2.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
i didnt read the entire thread in depth, just skimmed it. Isnt a vegetarain who occasionally eats fish usually referred to as a pescatarian?
post #35 of 139
Myth: Phytoestrogens in soy foods can enhance mental ability.

Truth: A recent study found that women with the highest levels of estrogen in their blood had the lowest levels of cognitive function; In Japanese Americans tofu consumption in mid-life is associated with the occurrence of Alzheimer's disease in later life.

I just read an article that says something about 'bad soy' versus 'good soy'. Tofu, miso, and Tempeh are good, but other things are bad. Bad soy will put those plant estrogens in you and can even change your menstrual cycle, but good soy will stop the effects of Phytoestrogens and won't have the same negative effect. And as for soy formula, it's very bad because it's like giving a baby 5 birth control pills worth of estrogen every day. Let me see if I can find a link.....

ETA: http://www.mercola.com/2004/dec/4/soy_truth.htm
post #36 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by moss
Isnt a vegetarain who occasionally eats fish usually referred to as a pescatarian?
a vegetarian NEVER eats fish! Maybe someone who does eat fish and no other meat can call themselves a pescatarian if they want. But they cannot call themselves a vegetarian.
post #37 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leilalu
Yes, it is.

Soy is unusually hig in manganese-a trace mineral. It has been noted in one particular study(can't seem to find it right now-but Google it and I'm sur eyou'll find it-I'm in a hurry)that found workers in themanganese mines suffered depression, irrational behavior, anger problems, etc, etc because of overexposure to the mineral they were mining. It was also noted that infants given soy formula grew up to be kind of violent, or have issues wth that.

I feel it is better to not put myself or my children at harm, given the facts.
Don't have the link right now, but the only study that was performed in a scientific manner and published some years ago on babies fed soy formula found no differences in babies fed soy, except that some girls had longer menstrual periods, but that was even statistically insignificant.

My son was on soy and I did a lot of research at the time. If I had found anything conclusive about the soy being specifically harmful, I would have switched formulas.

I won't go into the whole formula debate here, would rather NOT have had him on formula, period.
post #38 of 139
I was a vegetarian for 16 years. My accupuncturist recommended added some red meat when I was pregnant. I did and have occasionally had it ever since. I recently have been reading Nourshing Traditions and it resonated with me (well, mostly! I don't think I'm ready for organ meats and such)

It is just like most things--you can find research to back up your opinions. I can read both sides, but can I REALLY know??? I don't think so. Our knowledge of how things work is really marginal IMO. Every generation thinks we know so much--but we are really ignorant as hell.

I find following my instincts and moderation are good things.

And if I ever get killed by an animal, I hope I get eaten...
post #39 of 139
In my teenage years I was a vegetarian for 5 years. But I wasnt really a vegetarian, I was a carbatarian. I just ate crap foods. Anything non meat. I really think I messed myself up but it was because I did it WRONG. I ate bagels, yogurt (not the plain probiotic stuff, the mainstream crap), white pasta, stuff that is bad for you.

I have been on both ends of the spectrum. I did low carbs a few times in the last few years. I lost weight but I couldnt take a dump without bleeding and crying. My breath was skank, etc. I do think eating the RIGHT kind of carbs and limiting bad carbs is still the way to go. 6 weeks ago I went back to vegetarianism. I can finally go to the bathroom like a normal person without pain! We also do not use much soy at all. We eat tofu every once in a while (once in the past 6 weeks). My blood sugar has actually been stable and almost low the whole time which is a first for me. My diet consists of alot of beans/lentils/whole wheats/vegetables/fruits.

Soy formula scares me too but so does cow formula. Human milk for human babies.

I was just reading a few eat to beat cancer type books and they all suggest really limiting meat or cutting it out completely. A few studies showed that vegetarians were less likely to get cancer. When I was on the Hoxsey diet a few years back (for tumors/cancer, although I was low carbing then but it wasnt from that, it was from fertility drugs) all red meat was not allowed and fish and chicken were only allowed 2 times a week.

Your mother is also in that age range for the contaminated polio vaccine from the 50's and 60's (1955-1963) which can also lead to cancer/tumors (SV40). There are so many other factors that can come into play besides soy (although if you are eating it all the time and overdoing it, I am sure it can cause problems.)
post #40 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by sleepless-in-texas
My vegetarian friend was told by her doctor to avoid soy while pregnant because it would make the baby's penis small - I kid you not. He said soy does something to the hormones. I thought that was ridiculous until I found the same info elsewhere.
??
Glad my baby was a girl!
See?? You ate so much soy that your son turned into a girl!!!!



I ate quite a bit of soy while pregnant with ds, and he's on the "larger end of normal" in that regard (we had quite an interesting discussion with the Mohel after my son's Bris. Never thought I'd be discussing penis size with a Rabbi!!)

I think genetics has a lot more to do with size than diet.

Back to the OQ- I've found that a high-soy diet doesn't work well for me. I went off dairy about a year ago, replacing it with lots of soy- and it seriously messed up my menstrual cycles. I think that my overconsumption of processed soy foods may have contributed to my current lack of tolerance for even naturally fermented soy products.

I now have moderate amounts of eggs and goat milk daily, meat or poultry about once a week, and a diet based on whole plant foods the rest of the time. I prepare a lot of rice, beans, and veggies- tonight's dinner (lentil stew with butternut squash and potatoes) is in the crock pot. I serve juices to my children but I don't tolerate the sugar very well. Any "goodies" the kids have are free from artificial colors, flavors, and preservatives.
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