Another time-out thread ...

[merpk]

I know they've been here, we've done that, but have to ask about this. Since I've been working so hard at developing gentle discipline techniques, I've found that time-out has just evolved into something other than punishment, into just a calming down time.

In other words, I still use time out, but it's not ... in my mind ... punitive (wish DH felt the same way, but he's moving a little slower than I am in this ... )

Do you?

- Amy

[ladylee]

Well, I'll sit back and watch, but I also have a question. Timeouts don't work now for 2.5 year old dd--changing her state does. Moving her to a different room, redirecting her energy, etc. is relatively successful--but I wonder if that will still be effective as she gets older. Opinions?

Edited to add: What you're saying makes sense to me, Amy--about a time out not being punitive but a chance to regroup.

[MamaOui]

Wwwwwwwwwwwww

[Mallory]

I put removal from situation. Although I almost never use them, there are sometimes everyone just needs thier space. I also used to teach in a preschool and although time outs were in our official disipline plan, I hardly ever used them there either (it is not as uncommon for toys to go to time out though). They just don't work. There is usually something else that needs to discovered why this kid is misbehaving. Usually it was because one of the kids was bored or needed to move. In which case they could come do their lessons or a teacher would take some kids outside (we were usually blessed with a good ratio of 5 kids to 1 teacher for 3 and 4 year olds). Another thing would be to clean up- they could get the vaccume or spray and wipe the tables (they get to move alot, and do an important job). Sometimes they need a break and they could get thier mat out or read a book quietly by themselves. And of course one of the things you spend the most time teaching in a preschool is how to talk to your friends. We had very clear rules that all the kids could repeat -take care of things and be a friend. and we would do role plays at times when they are not already upset. When she takes your toy what do you say, when he is in your way what can you do?

Sometimes he'll throw a small toy at his brother (for example) and he KNOWS that he just can't do that. I feel he needs to know some things are just plain wrong. I always tell him," I would never hit you or throw something at you. We don't do that in our family" and then he gets a short time out.

If he really KNOWS than time outs are not stopping the problem. I think that this is missing the point of trying to help your son learn what to do when he is bored, jealous, angry.

[MamaSoleil]

dd is a little over 3, and she gets frustrated or angry mostly when she's tired, or when she so focused on what she wants, i really don't think she hears anyone....she's been like that for a long time...
anyway, I remove her from the situation, sit next to her, soothing her until she calms down, then I ask her what the problem was, and we discuss it, then we go back...this works really well for us.
When she was younger, I redirected, but always removed from the situation when things got too intense, it gave us both a chance to calm down, without other's comments or stares...

Mamasoleil

[MamaOui]

Ggggggggggggggggg

[Mallory]

Hi MamaOui,
I have two boys who are almost 3 years and 16 mo. I feel that when they are fighting or one is hurting/going to hurt the other the two main reasons are that he is too tired/hungry/some other physical reason or just bored. For example if he feels good and the baby messes up his track he can deal with it with out resorting to hitting or throwing, but if he is hungry then he loses control and hits. I know that when I lose control with my kids or my husband it makes me feel ill. If I have gotten so upset that I wish I could break something, being punished is not going to help me next time. If one hits I might seperate them, pick up the victim or ask one if they would like to play at the table or in the room, but mostly I try to fix what is wrong (make a snack, go nurse, go lay down, take him to the potty). Or sometimes its boredom, hmm.. what does mom and bro do if I throw a car behind the couch, what if I throw it at bro, what if it hits him? He is just exploring the world, maybe he really just wants to know if he can make it or if Miles still cries, or if I'll yell.

I think you are right that he needs to know that it is not okay to harm his bro, but I think that he does know. I try to remember that I am thinking about the long term (right after removing anyone from physical harm). When I have 15 and 16 year old boys how are they going to work things out? I think that giving each other some space is often a good start, but I don't think it will be nearly so easy to order it to happen. I also think that talking and listening are skills that we have to work on everyday.

So when the car is already in the air, what I do is calm the hurt child, calm the hurter and fix any physical ills (because I believe that they don't really want to hurt each other they just were at the end of their rope). Or if a new activity is what is needed, get that started. Then times when everyone is calm and happy we talk about and role play things to do when someone grabs your car/knocks down your tower/is in your space. Not just 5 min later, but tomorrow morning when everyone is snuggling in bed, or when we are driving in the car. I also think that talking about your body helps too, since I think that they are most likely to hurt when they are feeling bad. So we also talk about how it feels when we are hungry, or sleepy, or just need a little space. Sitting quietly and paying attention to your stomach or your head.

but I feel that my 2.5 year old should have a consequence for physically harming his 8 month old brother

I just feel like if the point of time out is to teach him something is wrong, but he already knows it is wrong than you need some other way to teach. If its really to help him calm down than I think that sitting by your self for a minute doesn't work the best most times. I think that often my boys need to be held, or to move around. I think that if what really works for your son is some time alone than ideally he would ask for or agree to this. Often my oldest will want to go to his room and now has started asking to close the door (they share a playroom) even when they are not fighting (I hope because he sees some times that he is not going to be able to play and will do best by himself). I think another way that you can encourage your children to take a break is to take one yourself when you get angry. I am going to go into my room until this timer beeps and then we can talk about it/get out the paint/finish putting shoes on, because I am feeling myself getting a little angry and I need a break.

This is getting so long I am going to stop

[MamaOui]

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[geomom]

Well, I put 'no, i've got something better'. But i don't know if it is particularly better. Time outs and the like don't really fit in with my goals. I very desparately want a thinking child. We have worked out a strategy for this that so far seems to be working for our 2.5 year old dd.

First, we lay the ground work. We think out loud a lot so that dd has a model of how problems are resolved. And we talk her through resolutions to her problems, like getting her shoes and socks off or doing a puzzle. We also plan out what we are going to do today and tomorrow and talk about things in sequence. "First, we'll go to library to get mommy from work. Second we'll go to the thrift store. Third, we'll buy some groceries. Last, we'll go home."

Second, when she gets frustrated/angry, we get down and help her tell us what is wrong. Then we repeat back to her what is bothering her without any judgement, just showing that we are listening. Then we make a suggestion for a solution. Sometimes she likes the solution, sometimes she makes her solutions, and sometimes we go through several potential solutions until we find the right one.

Third, we prepare her for big changes whenever we possibly can. Trips to the dentist, moves, out of town visitors, and such get talked about, played out, and otherwise talked to death. She likes and needs these preparations to be repeated right up to the event. It gives her something to relate to when the event occurs. Often, the event is reenacted afterwards too.

Finally, we make it a point to notice her attempts to problem solve on her own and encourage it. Even when the attempts are annoying or destructive, we praise the attempt and then implement step 2. Positive feedback goes a long way.

[ekblad9]

I voted removal from the situation. I never really had to use time out or anything else with ds #1. Dd #1, however, was a different story. She's very high strung and needed to be removed from situations. Having me near her during those times only frustrates her. She will now put herself in some sort of isolated spot when she feels herself getting out of control. Ds #2 is the same way. He will take some time to himself if he is frustrated and/or getting ready to lash out. I think that is a wonderful thing. I wish I could step back more in bad situations.

I think many of the suggestions in this thread are great! Sometimes I get so frustrated dealing with more than one child having a meltdown at a time. That's why a "time out" really works well for us!

[candiland]

I don't think any form of "discipline" on young children really works. They will stop "misbehaving" when they grow out of it. IMO, it doesn't matter if you spank, use a time-out, or simply remove them from the situation. They will continue the annoying behavior until they outgrow it. It's as simple as that. I think all you can really do is express your anger, sadness, dismay, etc., stop the behavior, and get on with it.
I voted "remove from situation"; for example, if my 2 1/2 yo. refuses to share her toys when her friend comes over, I'll warn her a few times that we'll have to go into the bedroom and "talk about it" until she understands the importance of sharing. If she still doesn't listen, and/or begins acting up (ie, screaming, "pretending" to hit me, etc.), I take her into the bedroom and calmly deal with her problem until she's over it. Then we re-join and she behaves nicely.
I personally think time-outs are great for grown-ups, though. I give them to myself all the time. Sitting in isolation for a few minutes is heaven on earth!!! Gee, they say one minute per every year of age. Do I get a 23 minute time out??? Fantastic!!!

[MamaSoleil]

Candiland:

You just described my parenting to the tee...

Keep on keepin on,

Mamasoleil

[LunaMom]

I very rarely use time-outs, and when I do, they are really more for ME to calm down. I've found that most times my daughter behaves inappropriately there are better ways to deal with it than imposing a time-out. It's one thing to leave a place wqhere a child is acting inappropriately (I don't consider that a time-out), but putting a child in a spot and setting a timer never felt right to me; in fact, the first time I tried it (after dd was 3 or so), she looked at me as though to say, "Mom, what the hell is this? It doesn't make any sense!" :LOL

Usually I try to recognize the impulse behind the behavior (frustration, anger, hunger, whatever) and address that issue, and then teach her a more acceptable way to express that feeling. Like I said, the time-outs are usually for me, so when I feel myself getting angry enough to yell, I might say, "The way you are behaving is making me very angry, and I need to calm down in the living room for a minute and then we will talk about this." Of course, that is on my Gentle-discipline-poster-mom days. The other days it sounds more like this: "I have to go to the bathroom!" Ah, the peeing excuse - works on husbands, too!

[bestjob]

I voted for the removal option. My daughter is almost 8 years old and my son is four and a half. When they were very tiny, I would hold them in my arms and talk about getting along. When they were older, I would help them leave a bad situation and I would sit with them and find something for them to do. At a somewhat older age, I would take them away to play with something else and leave them saying, "Please join the rest of us when you feel like you can get along." Now, I can say, "I can see that you are having a hard time getting along. I think you need some time by yourself. Why don't you go outside or up to your room?" and they'll stop the thing that they were doing that was causing trouble. Sometimes they will even go outside or up to their room. It isn't punitive, it's just good advice. If the obnoxious behaviour continues, and it rarely does, I will help them find something better to do.

[dfoy]

I wanted to vote for Yes, I use time-outs for removal from situation & No, I've got something better. Here's why:

With my dd who is 17 and a senior in high school, I used a combination of time out and "think sheet" with her from the time she was a little over 3 on up to about 8 or 9.

She would be removed from the situation, directed to her table & chairs (desk when she was older) and asked to respond to a think sheet when she was emotionally under control. At earlier ages (probably around 3 1/2 - 6), she would use pictures to communicate and then as she began to write, she could use words or both pictures and words. Here's what she was to communicate:
1. What happened from her perspective
2. Who was affected by her behavior
3. How could she do things differently
4. How could others do things differently
5. How she felt
Then we would talk about the think sheet. It worked very well for her, as she was an artistic child and very verbal. Filling out the think sheet fulfilled a need for her to express herself creatively and have someone problem-solve with her in the process.

My little one is only 14 months so I don't do anything other than redirect at this point. And talk about why we shouldn't hit or bite (which seems to be the major issues right now). She does tantrum when she doesn't get her way and I try to redirect 1st and then if I'm not successful after a few tries, I walk away and let her tantrum until she tires of it (which is usually pretty quickly without an audience).

[Greaseball]

I read that time-outs are not conducive to gentle discipline because of the negative associations with being ostracized.

I also read that if a parent feels the need to put a child in time-out, it's the parent who needs a time-out.

If my dd was doing something that was annoying but not really wrong, like banging pots and pans together, I would ask her to do it in her room, but that's as close as I'm comfortable getting to the time-out.

I think discipline should be creative as well as gentle, and to me a time-out is not creative.

[BelovedBird]

It seems that most of those who say "we never use any form of time outs" have only one child. That is great that you can always be with the child so that it is not a time out but a time to work through the problem together. Typical situation, in our hhouse, when "time out" is used. Me (sitting on couch nursing the baby), kids doing X activity together. (they are 3 and 5 yr old boys) start getting wild or start arguing. I try swithing the gears, doing another activity with them, telling them we will go outside as soon as I am ready. Those don't work. The arguing turns into fighting or the acting wild turms into dangerous rambunctiosness. Either before or after someone is hurt and crying the more wild or whatever one is told to go take a book and go sit on the brown couch (its in a sort of hallway, next to the bookcase) so that you can calm down + plus a short sentence or two about when you will be calm (when you think you can play nicely with your brother without grabbing toys from him, for example).

I have my own struggles with always being positive, since having my third baby (he is now 9 months old) and occasionaly someone (the 5 year old)is "sent" to their room. Like after hitting repeatedly, or endangering the baby somehow. I have put myself in a timeout in a similar situation, but that becomes dificult when you are caring for three or more children....

As I have said before I hate the judgment that goes on in these types of threads. Judgment is only appropriate when I have been in someone else's exact living situation, family situation, etc. etc.

-BelovedBird

[geomom]

Beloved Bird, I don't think those of who don't use time out are judging those who do. My ideals and goals may not be other people's. Though I certainly prefer my own world view, I am not arrogant enough to assume that it is the only valid one. Just because I choose to live differently does not mean I am criticizing others.

[El Casey S]

I used to use time outs as a chance to get David out of the situation that was driving me nuts - it was a punishment, but mostly a chance to get him clamed down - a change of venue to get him on another topic. But I was taught by someone that they don't do the whole job - and she was right. That changed our whole lives, here! That and another little trick - but I'll go into that another time! What I now do is - a timeout with a twist. I take David to his room and use the chance to teach. To explain to him in calm, sometimes funny words what I didn't like, offer ideas what alternatives could be used and ask him for suggestions, too. I see time out as a teaching time (and training for me!) - not as a time to get him out of my hair for a bit! Although, I must admit, I still revert when times are stressed (and I've only got 1!!) to the get out of my hair timeout. It is better than many other possible reactions! You are doing remarkably BelovedBird!

I'm tired - It's 00:34 here in Germany - Beddy bye time!
Zzzzzzz

[lucina3]

I'm not sure how to vote. What I do with my girls during a situation where they really need to either calm down or take a break is to tell them just that "You need to calm down now, find a place to do it" or "You need a break, find a place for a break please" Sometimes they will go to their rooms, sometimes go sit on the stairs, sometimes they will plop their little bum down right where they stand. Their "break" is as long as they need. I also tell them that when they go to wherever they want to go... That way it's completely up to them if they need to be in isolation or just a few feet away from the group. It also teaches them to listen to themselves and recognize their emotions.

It was funny one day my youngest (4y5m) hit her sister, so she went and took her "break" and after about 10 minutes she was still sitting there... so I went over and asked her if she was ready to rejoin the group (Usually her "breaks" are 30 seconds to a minute) and she actually replied "No, I think I might hit her again if I play with her now, I'm going to sit more" I did a It was so wonderful to see how honest she was and how she really CAN recognize when she's still feeling nasty! After about 5 more minutes she came back and said "I think I'm okay now" and went off to play! That situation really reassured me that this type of "break" "calm down time" "time out" whatever you want to call it, works - at least for her!