"lack of discipline" thread now titled "OT Essays and Rants" - Page 5

[pamelamama]

Originally Posted by moma justice

instead (and i am sure for many other reasons) she had a monster who was lookign for attention

When I read a child described as monster, I feel uncomfortable. I request that you speak about the child's behavior and avoid negative labels.

[sunnmama]

Originally Posted by pamelamama

Some notes, and a mod request:

If I may distill, I belive the OP is feeling frustrated that what she perceives as permissive parenting might be labeled as "GD" or AP when we all here know that AP/GD parenting is an incredible amount of work. How frustrating that our hard work as parents is misunderstood/mislabeled by those who are not in our place.

Others are feeling judged that their parenting (or any parenting) might be lableled 'permissive' or 'lazy' or otherwise inadequate when in fact, these parents are applying their best strategies to work with their special needs/high energy/totally typical kid. How frustrating that our hard work as parents is misunderstood/mislabeled by those who are not in our place.

Just wanted to add that I really appreciated these comments, Pamela.

[candiland]

sunnmama, Devi..... YES, you are being talked about, so please come back!... I really try hard to not judge people's situations here. I don't know any of you from Adam. I'm sure that if I tried as hard as sunnmama tried to get my kids to nap and it absolutely wasn't working, as seems to be the case, I'd let it go, too. It's obvious that the majority of parents DO TRY VERY HARD to be the best parents they can be. It's the hardest job in the world (OMG, my dd was born screaming and never stopped! Never quick to smile, laugh, and is still incredibly intense at 5 and freaks out over EVERYTHING like people are stabbing her with knives... and YES, I know without a doubt people are judging me and thinking that I'm raising a spoiled little brat... it seems like "spirited child" is a weak description, to say the least )....

BUT, just as we could agree that spanking isn't necessarily the best parenting choice, neither is allowing a child to do anything they want because mom or dad just don't want to deal with it. I don't get the feeling that ANY parent here is like that... why else would we all be here day in and day out trying to become better people, better citizens, better mommies, daddies, partners, etc. etc??

I shouldn't have used words such as "lazy" or "neglectful" (I don't think I used "neglectful", but I'm not gonna search thru 5 pages right now ). I work very hard to NOT judge anyone and this past week has been a major regression for me.

I guess this hits a sore note with me because, like lilyka, I started out confusing gentle discipline with "let them do whatever they want." Luckily (ha, ironically), I met this other person who "parented" the same way, but her dd was physically abusive every five minutes when we'd get together, and she did nothing about it.

THIS MADE ME THINK. Hmmm, her child has no boundaries and is physically hurting people. My child has no real boundaries and is a screaming, yelling, whining banshee! So really, this relationship with said woman was actually a mirror, and in this mirror was reflected everything I needed to change about myself.

I think some people fear discipline. We don't live in a world of unconditional love. Three strikes and you're out. I, like every other mother here, just want my kids to grow up healthy and happy and still love their mama as much as I love them. But I'm coming to realize that they're not gonna hate me because I'm firm with them. I was raised very permissively by my grandparents, and I'm still dealing with the fallout at 26 years old. I expect to get what I want when I want it, and the real world doesn't work that way. I expect this plays a large part in my bipolar and depressive tendencies. My reality simply isn't the reality we live in.

Anyway, I digress. I just wanted to come and patch things up with all of you.

[LunaMom]

Don't know why I'm bothering, because this thread is making ME cranky too...but...

I know plenty of lazy parents who let their children behave inappropriately but NONE of them call it gentle discipline, not out loud, anyway. Maybe they tell themselves they are letting the kids be kids and choosing their battles, who knows.

I do feel quite strongly that it is necessary to teach children what is appropriate in the larger world outside their home, and what I see happening a lot is parents whose rules INSIDE the home set their kids up for trouble when they venture OUTSIDE. So the kid who can stick his dirty hands inside the bowl of food at his own house is not going to get the same relaxed reception when he comes to my July 4th barbecue and does the same thing. The kid who is allowed to jump off the couch at her home really needs to know that she can't do this at Grandma's or a friend's house.

So I think that often, when parents decide that something is okay with THEM - and they have every right to decide what is right in their own home as long as it is not hurting anyone - they need to consider the fact that it is not easy for young children to chnage their behavior when the rules outside are so different. So they should ask themselves, if they let their kid do this particular thing, how hard will it be to teach their child that it is only okay in certain specific environments and not others? I know my own daughter does much better with set limits. I probably don't really care if she jumps off the couch in my house, but I choose not to allow it because I don't want her thinking she can do this everywhere she goes. Make sense? I don't think disallowing jumping off the couch is stifling her creativity in any way! I think it is truly doing a child a disservice if you allow a whole lot of behavior that is going to get them "into trouble" outside their homes. It's really not fair to them - imagine how confused they must be when they get negative reactions all the time to things they thought were fine.

Of course, there are the parents who allow all sorts of things in their own homes and it NEVER OCCURS TO THEM that other people don't find this acceptable. That drives me CRAZY and I just don't get how someone can bring their kid to my house and think I'm going to find it adorable when he starts pulling books off my shelf and throwing them around. That's just inconsiderate.

Okay, I bothered...:LOL

[Sofiamomma]

moma justice, don't worry about spelling, it is ideas, thoughts and experiences most of us are interested in, so post away! If I were working in a store and someone's child spilled $10 worth of coffee beans, I'd be asking them to not only control the child, but to pay for the spilled beans! I think that example is a prime example of what candiland is talking about. You make a safe environment for a baby/toddler to explore, not allow a *five* year old to trash the merchandise at a store in the name of exploration! Sheesh!!

Lunamom, I think kids can tolerate a certain amount of difference in expectations from place to place, but I do agree that it is important to teach them that the outside world may expect something different than you do. I have a friend who does not allow her children to stand on chairs and she readily admits she has no rational reason for that, but that is the rule. My dd used to look a little confused when she wasn't allowed to do that there, but she quickly adapted. Same with going back and forth between mine and my mom's house.

[sunnmama]

Originally Posted by LunaMom

Of course, there are the parents who allow all sorts of things in their own homes and it NEVER OCCURS TO THEM that other people don't find this acceptable. That drives me CRAZY and I just don't get how someone can bring their kid to my house and think I'm going to find it adorable when he starts pulling books off my shelf and throwing them around. That's just inconsiderate.

Now *this* I can relate to
I think it is true that people have different comfort levels with noise, mess, activity, etc.....and I have a friend whose comfort level is significantly higher than mine. So, when I am around her child, sometimes I have to set my own limits, lol. And I think that is ok to tell the child directly "The books must stay on the shelf". It is just information, really.

As an extreme (but interesting) example, dd and I were stranded for 11 hours in an airport earlier this month, and we spent lots and lots of time in the play area. There was one child there who screamed *everything*. She had no "indoor voice" at all, lol. I mean, she would stand right next to my head and scream at me--in a happy voice. Turns out, when she spoke to her mother, she signed . Her mother is deaf, and as such, has a *very* high tolerance for screaming, lol. So this child had not yet learned the concept of an "indoor voice". Ok, that is an extreme example, but if mess does not bother mom--then she won't spend a lot of time changing the behavior, kwim?

Candiland--
And, as I said in my first post, I *do* agree with the idea of this thread. Defending children who dump coffee in the grocery store is ridiculous imo, as would be insisting that your child should be able to dump books in another person's home. Some other things I just see as very, very grey and complex issues (sleep, tantrums)--and IME (personally and from observing friends and their children) the work being done to address the issue is not always obvious--and sometimes not even accepted if it has been explained.

[alliegad]

Just wanted to let you all know that I am sorry if I insulted anyone's intelligence by previously posting with spelling errors. I was not under the impression that we all had to be excellent (or perfect, or actually, even near perfect) with grammar or spelling, so seriously- if my post bothered anyone due to what I spelled wrong, I apologize. I guess when I post, I just try to get ideas and thoughts through without worrying much about those who want to nitpick postings apart for such grammatical errors. I will know better from now on. If it bothered anyone for ~other~ reasons, I apologize for that as well.
I was trying to post a light-hearted thread meant to be uplifting, but I guess I failed at that.
Sorry. You guys for the most part are so supportive of each other, and I really admire that. I agree with much of what I am reading.

Sunmamma and Lunamama, I agree with you guys on the whole thought that different people have different comfort levels on how to raise/direct/redirect their children. I do often redirect my son, when we are at other houses or out, because I know that other people would not respect the way that I usually just let him explore and do as he wishes. Given, he explores and does as he wishes in the comforts (and within the boundaries) of our own home, so it is safer and more... comfortable there!

[Devi]

Originally Posted by candiland

sunnmama, Devi..... YES, you are being talked about, so please come back!... I really try hard to not judge people's situations here. I don't know any of you from Adam. I'm sure that if I tried as hard as sunnmama tried to get my kids to nap and it absolutely wasn't working, as seems to be the case, I'd let it go, too. It's obvious that the majority of parents DO TRY VERY HARD to be the best parents they can be. It's the hardest job in the world (OMG, my dd was born screaming and never stopped! Never quick to smile, laugh, and is still incredibly intense at 5 and freaks out over EVERYTHING like people are stabbing her with knives... and YES, I know without a doubt people are judging me and thinking that I'm raising a spoiled little brat... it seems like "spirited child" is a weak description, to say the least )....

BUT, just as we could agree that spanking isn't necessarily the best parenting choice, neither is allowing a child to do anything they want because mom or dad just don't want to deal with it. I don't get the feeling that ANY parent here is like that... why else would we all be here day in and day out trying to become better people, better citizens, better mommies, daddies, partners, etc. etc??

I shouldn't have used words such as "lazy" or "neglectful" (I don't think I used "neglectful", but I'm not gonna search thru 5 pages right now ). I work very hard to NOT judge anyone and this past week has been a major regression for me.

I guess this hits a sore note with me because, like lilyka, I started out confusing gentle discipline with "let them do whatever they want." Luckily (ha, ironically), I met this other person who "parented" the same way, but her dd was physically abusive every five minutes when we'd get together, and she did nothing about it.

THIS MADE ME THINK. Hmmm, her child has no boundaries and is physically hurting people. My child has no real boundaries and is a screaming, yelling, whining banshee! So really, this relationship with said woman was actually a mirror, and in this mirror was reflected everything I needed to change about myself.

I think some people fear discipline. We don't live in a world of unconditional love. Three strikes and you're out. I, like every other mother here, just want my kids to grow up healthy and happy and still love their mama as much as I love them. But I'm coming to realize that they're not gonna hate me because I'm firm with them. I was raised very permissively by my grandparents, and I'm still dealing with the fallout at 26 years old. I expect to get what I want when I want it, and the real world doesn't work that way. I expect this plays a large part in my bipolar and depressive tendencies. My reality simply isn't the reality we live in.

Anyway, I digress. I just wanted to come and patch things up with all of you.

Very interesting post. I returned as per your invitation Candiland. In the end, I feel that this thread has opened a necessary discussion and I thank you for starting the conversation.

My apologies for being defensive. And, for the record - I'm not the best at spelling either. : I also invite anyone to skip over this long post because I am certain much of what I say is totally unnecessary.

First I'd like to offer food for thought on your situation growing up. I am pretty certain that your bipolar issues are NOT be caused by your GP's parenting style, but I do know that Bi-Polar kids are VERY explosive and it's best not to set them off if you can help it. The word no can send them into a frenzy. Perhaps your Grand Parents were doing what was best for you? I read a book called The Explosive Child and it basically encourages parents lighten up on some of these kids. Again, just food for thought? I don't know your situation specifically but wanted to offer some input.

Before I talk about myself I'd like to begin by describing my situation. I was led to AP through my daughter. I was doing AP things before I even knew what AP was.

I remember calling LLL and asking for help saying "I don't know what to do, my child is one and I have to wean her now." The person at the other end reassured me that I should burn the book where I got this bad advice LOL, and that I did not have to wean my daughter because she was one. She then recommended Dr. Sears. I didn't rush out and buy his book, but picked it up several months later at a half priced book store. My daughter was almost 2 when I finally purchased the "Baby Book." I cried when I opened it and saw our side car sleeping arrangement on page xx. I could not believe that what I'd been doing was "right" in the eyes of some as we took such scorn. I finally felt liberated and allowed to follow my instinct. I was vindicated!

For the record, my daughter is very spirited and had colic, needed nursing very much, needed to co-sleep and still does, weaned naturally at almost 5 years old. She's six now, still spirited, still has needs that differ from many other children. Because my dd is so spirited, sensitive my parenting style is often "blamed" for her temperament. I am considered permissive because my dd nursed until she was 5, is still co-sleeping and I don't spank. While no one here would question these things, the point is some do.

From the time I discovered Sears, I have felt that it's OK to follow my instincts and go against the grain. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I continually examine my beliefs and feel that overall I'm doing the right thing. And, I vow to constantly educate myself on parenting and make adjustments as needed. Unfortunately my instincts don't cover all that I need to know.

A bit of perspective regarding my rant: When I hear certain words to describe parents it sets me off, as I'm sure you can tell. Those words happen to have been used here.

Here is a quick Q and A with James Dobson (whom I despise personally)

http://www.troubledwith.com/stellent...0and%20Answers

If you look that over you will find a similar argument to the one presented here. Not that Moms here are coming from the same place as Mr. Dobson, but I find the entire conversation reminiscent of conversations and struggles I've had with the Dobson fans in my life.

Frankly, I felt many of the examples given here may be beyond the parents "healthy control." I do think that parents should communicate reasonable expectations to their child, teaching them to respect people and property. But we may all have different methods of teaching these things? Also as Sunmama said, we all have different levels of tolerance. So, I generally try to give parents the benefit of the doubt. Though, I admit I'm not always successful on that front. I also agree with Sunmama that in ones home it's ok to set limits if the parents are not doing so. I would also feel comfortable (saying please don't hit) if a child hit mine, and the parent didn't act.

Additionally we all bring our own baggage into our parenting, like it or not. The only thing one can do is try to be aware and make adjustments. At the risk of being too personal, some of my baggage includes: My sister and I being battered, we were very well behaved as a result. Somtimes I feel there is a trade off. My nephews get the "wooden spoon" or "belt" - and they too are very well behaved. Some of my other nephews, nieces also get spanked ... again little angels.

I chose to focus on the long term when it comes to parenting my daughter. I do not need to have a "well behaved" child at all times. It's not my ultimate goal. My goal is to have a well adjusted adult. Not that one has to choose between the two, but at times I think people choose well behaved over all else. I will say we have paid a price for this philosophy in that I have to be around people who are very understanding. And, that limits our ability to do things because on the one hand, I get embarrassed at times, but on the other I feel I'm right and the rest of the country is largely wrong. :LOL

Overall, I have a pretty simple parenting philosophy. I don't believe in unnecessarily intruding on my child’s person *without good reason, and I try not to sweat the small stuff. For example, I would never hold my dd down to brush her teeth, or force her to comb her hair or eat anything in particular. I do sing songs when I comb her hair, as she allows me to do it then. I also encourage eating (healthy foods) when were heading somewhere where we won't be able eat for a while. But, I feel very strongly that it's a slippery slope when parents control too much of their child’s body. If I am controlling every aspect of their person, I feel they are more pliable to a person whose intentions might not be as good, KWIM?

Also, I am a mom who allows her daughter to jump on the couch, but I've always explained that this is ok at home and not elsewhere. She has not had an issue with that and has NEVER done so in another persons home. But, I trust that attached parents know if their child will have a hard time adjusting.

I also think at times we expect too much from our kids? I think that expecting a child not to be attracted to putting their hands in coffee beans when the beans are at their eye level is unrealistic. In fact, my child has been attracted to said beans at our local coffee house. When this happened last year, I redirected her, and told her that the beans were for looking at instead of touching and showed her what the beans looked like roasted etc ... But if I was with a group of friends, I might not realize she is playing in the beans right away, KWIM? I remember leaving the coffee shop questioning the wisdom of putting the darn beans out in such a manner in the first place. Heck, I wanted to play in them myself!

Anyhow, in a nutshell, my child’s feelings are always valid, and always considered. That doesn't mean she always gets the last say, nor does it mean that I don't constantly question my parenting.

I hope that I was able to convey some of my thoughts/perspective.

Thanks for listening, and again my apologies for stating my opinion in a rude manner previously ... AND I'M SORRY FOR THE LONG WINDED POST ... YIKES!

[Devi]

Originally Posted by alliegad

Just wanted to let you all know that I am sorry if I insulted anyone's intelligence by previously posting with spelling errors. I was not under the impression that we all had to be excellent (or perfect, or actually, even near perfect) with grammar or spelling, so seriously- if my post bothered anyone due to what I spelled wrong, I apologize. I guess when I post, I just try to get ideas and thoughts through without worrying much about those who want to nitpick postings apart for such grammatical errors. I will know better from now on. If it bothered anyone for ~other~ reasons, I apologize for that as well.

Your spelling really didn't bother me. But I will admit the content of your post did. My apologies for addressing your spelling vs. the context of your post about me.

Your apology is accepted. Peace

[kavamamakava]

Originally Posted by LunaMom

I do feel quite strongly that it is necessary to teach children what is appropriate in the larger world outside their home, and what I see happening a lot is parents whose rules INSIDE the home set their kids up for trouble when they venture OUTSIDE. So the kid who can stick his dirty hands inside the bowl of food at his own house is not going to get the same relaxed reception when he comes to my July 4th barbecue and does the same thing. The kid who is allowed to jump off the couch at her home really needs to know that she can't do this at Grandma's or a friend's house.

So I think that often, when parents decide that something is okay with THEM - and they have every right to decide what is right in their own home as long as it is not hurting anyone - they need to consider the fact that it is not easy for young children to chnage their behavior when the rules outside are so different. So they should ask themselves, if they let their kid do this particular thing, how hard will it be to teach their child that it is only okay in certain specific environments and not others? I know my own daughter does much better with set limits. I probably don't really care if she jumps off the couch in my house, but I choose not to allow it because I don't want her thinking she can do this everywhere she goes. Make sense? I don't think disallowing jumping off the couch is stifling her creativity in any way! I think it is truly doing a child a disservice if you allow a whole lot of behavior that is going to get them "into trouble" outside their homes. It's really not fair to them - imagine how confused they must be when they get negative reactions all the time to things they thought were fine.

This is a tiny bit off topic from the OP, but I do think children have the capacity to know what behavior is appropriate in certain situations and what isn't. That's why I teach my kids that we whisper in the library at all times. We don't whisper at home at all times. But in the library, we use our "library voice". I think children are very perceptive. When my parents come to visit, they use their potties in the bathroom. I've never told them that they have to, but my parents make comments that make my kids feel bad if they bring their potties out and take a dump in front of the TV Like, "EWWWWW that stinks." or "Gross!" I feel bad too and have asked them not to make those comments. But the children solved it by just not doing it when they are around. Children also learn if their mom and dad have differing styles of discipline and learn how to respond appropriately as well.
BTW, I let my kids jump on the couch. In my home, only.

[alliegad]

Devi, thanks for both of those posts. It definetly does sound like you had AP down pat before you really knew it was AP. What a joy it must have been to find out when your daughter was near 2 that there were so many others out there who respected the way you parented and did the same, and even so heavily encouraged it. Thank goodness for that woman you talked to at LLL who told you to burn that silly "must wean your child at 1 yo" book.
Your example about jumping on couches at home being fine but in other houses not always fine is a very simple, clear illustration of how attachment parenting provides freedom to learn and do and experience without stifiling, while still respecting the boundaries of other mamma's rules and homes.

Kavamamakava, I agree that children are very perceptive. I think that for the most part, they can tell the difference in your body language, tone, mamma's comfort level, when they partake in something like jumping on someone's couch in different environments or moving the potty chair to the living room. They don't want people to make negative comments dierected towards them or because of them- they pick up on that stuff more than we maybe give them credit for sometimes.
Anyways, well said.

[Devi]

Originally Posted by alliegad

Devi, thanks for both of those posts. It definetly does sound like you had AP down pat before you really knew it was AP. What a joy it must have been to find out when your daughter was near 2 that there were so many others out there who respected the way you parented and did the same, and even so heavily encouraged it. Thank goodness for that woman you talked to at LLL who told you to burn that silly "must wean your child at 1 yo" book.

Indeed it was a huge comfort! Still is ...

Thanks for your post as well.

[PuppyFluffer]

The tone of this thread was a bit alarming earlier. It has covered some important ground and had valuable thoughts.

Thank you for bringing it around to a place of peaceful understanding!

[BlueStateMama]

I still have to go back and read the responses but ITA with the OP. I've tried to explain GD to my mom countless times and she always makes a comment like, "yeah, you'll end up with kids like on Nanny 911." I *try* to explain to her that no hitting/no yelling does NOT equal "no boundaries/limits/discipline" but she refuses to "get it." It's frustrating that because I'm choosing a different parenting path she gets defensive about her own choices and shuts down.

Now - off to read the 4 pages here

[Devi]

Clarification on the bean issue.

Originally Posted by moma justice

i totally understand candiland's OP/rant

one example of gd being used to cover a lack of parenting is this:
i used to work at a food co-op that had a lot of "alternative type people"
as shoppers and one day a 5 ish year old boy was playing with the bulk coffe dispensers and opened them up and let some beans out (like 1/2 a cup) the mom looked and said nothing. trying to silently assert my authority i immediatly walked over and cleaned the mess up while he was still standing there (mother still says nothing) then the little boy opens it again and spill ALOT of beans (like $8 worth of beans) and i say to the mom as i am cleaning it up, "i am sorry mam, but i am going to have to ask you to prevent your child from touching any more of our merchandise." she flipped out
she acted like i new nothing about the "spirit of a child" and that he was just "curious bc he was smart" and "wanted to explore his environment" blah blah

For some reason I feel compelled to explain my eariler post as I initially misunderstood what you posted moma justice.

My daughter was attracted to unroasted coffee beans in huge sacks that were placed wide open, and at kid level in a coffee shop we visted. These sacks were on display in the entry way, and must have weighed close to 100 pounds each. As I said, they were wide open and actually looked like a sensory play area for cripes sakes. My child did not open a closed container and spill beans all over. In fact she just played in the beans with her hands, briefly until I mentioned not to. I do remember the clerk saying lots of kids were drawn to playing in the beans, well duh!

Anyway, just wanted to clarify that I am not endorsing kids deliberately spilling coffee beans all over the place.

Additionally, my honest guess is that the women in this story might have a different "story" about what occurred though? - just sayin'.

K, bye

[annakiss]

Originally Posted by BlueStateMama

I *try* to explain to her that no hitting/no yelling does NOT equal "no boundaries/limits/discipline"

Don't most of us have the no hitting/no yelling rule not just for ourselves, but for our kids as well? Might help explain it a bit.

I have followed this thread for a few days now... At first, I felt alarmed, defensive, thinking that my parenting might be labeled as "lazy" at times. My son sometimes takes a nap, sometimes doesn't lately. This started well after his second birthday. My father has tried to tell me that DS needs a nap (over the phone, not after having spent any time with him - my father lives 3 1/2 hours away) simply because all kids his age do, so the OP sounded a bit like that to me. My mother has told me countless times (also living 3 1/2 hours away, without the contact with my DS) that I need to have better routines for DS, which also was part of the original example/complaint of the OP. Of course, we do have routines, but we they aren't strict because we don't feel we need them. DS sleeps longer and better at night if he skips a nap and is easier to put to bed (with somewhat of a routine). So for my family, in my situation, we don't always require what other people/families require.

I can totally understand children benefitting from strict routine. I can understand parents needing that routine when other aspects of their life demand it. But my approach to gentle discipline attempts to model what evolutionary biologists believe is an "appropriate" way to parent, much in the way of the books of Meredith Small and The Continuum Concept. I'm not always certain what that is exactly, but our family attempts to ask "what is best?" in our approach and to imagine what we would be doing if instead of a nuclear situation, we were in a tribal situation. We try to allow for that as much as we can. This is also why we choose to unschool.

I'm babbling endlessly now, but I suppose my point is that I originally felt defensive about this thread, but have attempted to consider my child and my parenting from a pseudo-objective viewpoint to imagine if what I encounter and how very much of a struggle it is, is normal and developmentally appropriate for my child. I think we're doing okay, but it is a struggle. I do not have the empathetic, quiet, montessori child that testimonials in Dr. Sears' books extol as the result of the AP model. I don't believe now that that is the end result, but rather a matter, in large part, of individual temperment. My child is wildfire, and yet he is loving and adorable. I don't know if eliminating dairy from his diet or being more strict with a routine would change the wildfire quality about him. In large part, I think he's just 2 1/2. After reading this thread, I am willing to, and have been discussing the notion of trying an elimination diet. I know that as he grows, his needs for routine will evolve, but into what, I know not.

Anyway, thanks for this thread, as it has challenged me profoundly, and I believe now that it has reached more of a place of understanding of the circumstances of individuals and their families and needs.

[lilyka]

uugghhh, why do they do that. My kids love toplay in the bags of raw beans. yeah it is cool to see them sitting there but put them away already. obviously, unless you go to the same coffee shop as me this is a universal problem. Anyway,my little rant about coffee beans which has nothing to do with the original post . . . (did I mention they keep those bags of beans right next to where they keep all the coloringbooks, puzzles and toys. . . )

[Devi]

Originally Posted by annakiss

Don't most of us have the no hitting/no yelling rule not just for ourselves, but for our kids as well? Might help explain it a bit.

I have followed this thread for a few days now... At first, I felt alarmed, defensive, thinking that my parenting might be labeled as "lazy" at times. My son sometimes takes a nap, sometimes doesn't lately. This started well after his second birthday. My father has tried to tell me that DS needs a nap (over the phone, not after having spent any time with him - my father lives 3 1/2 hours away) simply because all kids his age do, so the OP sounded a bit like that to me. My mother has told me countless times (also living 3 1/2 hours away, without the contact with my DS) that I need to have better routines for DS, which also was part of the original example/complaint of the OP. Of course, we do have routines, but we they aren't strict because we don't feel we need them. DS sleeps longer and better at night if he skips a nap and is easier to put to bed (with somewhat of a routine). So for my family, in my situation, we don't always require what other people/families require.

I can totally understand children benefitting from strict routine. I can understand parents needing that routine when other aspects of their life demand it. But my approach to gentle discipline attempts to model what evolutionary biologists believe is an "appropriate" way to parent, much in the way of the books of Meredith Small and The Continuum Concept. I'm not always certain what that is exactly, but our family attempts to ask "what is best?" in our approach and to imagine what we would be doing if instead of a nuclear situation, we were in a tribal situation. We try to allow for that as much as we can. This is also why we choose to unschool.

I'm babbling endlessly now, but I suppose my point is that I originally felt defensive about this thread, but have attempted to consider my child and my parenting from a pseudo-objective viewpoint to imagine if what I encounter and how very much of a struggle it is, is normal and developmentally appropriate for my child. I think we're doing okay, but it is a struggle. I do not have the empathetic, quiet, montessori child that testimonials in Dr. Sears' books extol as the result of the AP model. I don't believe now that that is the end result, but rather a matter, in large part, of individual temperment. My child is wildfire, and yet he is loving and adorable. I don't know if eliminating dairy from his diet or being more strict with a routine would change the wildfire quality about him. In large part, I think he's just 2 1/2. After reading this thread, I am willing to, and have been discussing the notion of trying an elimination diet. I know that as he grows, his needs for routine will evolve, but into what, I know not.

Anyway, thanks for this thread, as it has challenged me profoundly, and I believe now that it has reached more of a place of understanding of the circumstances of individuals and their families and needs.

What an absolutely excellent post.

I wanted to touch on one thing you noted:

I do not have the empathetic, quiet, montessori child that testimonials in Dr. Sears' books extol as the result of the AP model. I don't believe now that that is the end result, but rather a matter, in large part, of individual temperment. My child is wildfire, and yet he is loving and adorable.

I felt let down by Sears and his description of kids who are basically tantrum free stepford kids if we nurse and co-sleep ect. WRONNNNG. He does have a book or two about "high need kids" which is helpful, but it took him having several kids before he had the ONE with a temperament that opened his eyes.

I felt like a failure because I was doing everything "right" and not getting the promised Sears end result, this was damaging in many ways. But, thankfully I found wisdom here and via exploration of other avenues. I think Sears has much to offer (obviously) but he also promises things that are not fully based in reality IMHO.

Thanks again for the great post. I fully agree that this thread has been productive in the end, so again thanks to Candiland for opening discussion.

[lunar forest]

Originally Posted by annakiss

I can totally understand children benefitting from strict routine. I can understand parents needing that routine when other aspects of their life demand it. But my approach to gentle discipline attempts to model what evolutionary biologists believe is an "appropriate" way to parent, much in the way of the books of Meredith Small and The Continuum Concept. I'm not always certain what that is exactly, but our family attempts to ask "what is best?" in our approach and to imagine what we would be doing if instead of a nuclear situation, we were in a tribal situation. We try to allow for that as much as we can. This is also why we choose to unschool.

Oh, well put Anna!! That is exactly how I feel! I think we have the same son, here! (It will be interesesting to see how they interact with each other!)

About Dr. Sears' books: I, too, was disappointed, with exception of his ADD book. (I HATE lables, but I there are certain ones that we have, and run in our family, so it can be good to aknowlage, to a certain extent.) He just keeps describing my kids, over and over. I would recommend it, it's pretty darn good.

[lilyka]

Since you brought up continuim concept I would challenege that those children were on pretty strict schedules. I wouldbet thier days were pretty routien and that they rose at roughly the same time every day (or at least with very gradual rythmical change) with the sun or before and went to sleep every night with the sun. tey got up and gathered breakfast, cooked it ate it, etc. . . . rarely were thier ives interupted. There weren't all these societal interuptions, play groups, piano lesons, Dr. appointments and other things that would dink around with thier schedule. thier moms aren't whipping in and out of carseats while they are trying to nap. even if done in a sling they would have a better chance of doing it at the same time every day than kids in todays western society. My first slept and ate anywhere. but she was still very scheduled even though self scheduled. I am talking you could set your watch to her. shecould be running around like a lunatic and when the clock strikes one drop like a dead person. There were several times I saw her start down and just about broke aleg trying to get to her before she bonked her head. So even though i was subjecting her to crazyness she could cope. But then I guess our lives were a lot less crazy then. Number two would have benifited from a couple of things but I didn't want to believe she needed a schedule. it didn't fit my lifestyle to believe it. and she probably would have fallen into a routien if I had stopped, if I had shown some consistancey to her life but we were here one day and there the next and getting up one time one day and another the next and napping here and there when she could catch a wink. with number three we started off with a schedule (more or less) and I don't know if it was conditining, if it was just that routien allowed her to get what she needed or if she would have slept/ate anywhere (she was a tummy sleeper who hated her carseat so I doubt it) well she would eat anywhere. Ava's not one to turn down a bite :LOL but she didn't sit around always latched on either. But sleeping was a whole nother story.

but my point is you can't really compare our children to simpler societies unless you have made a point to stick close to home base, respect your childs schedule, and leave them alone enough to find it. or inother words really really simplify. It is easy to look at some of the exapmples in the cc and say "all children benifit from having things left up to them" but realy what I see when I look at that book, the conclusion I draw is children benifit from natrual healthy diets. children benifit from simple, clutter free, appointment free lifestyles where thier schedules are rarely interupted. Children benifit from a life free of buzzing, flashing whirring, digitized, artificially lit, amplified, speed of light lifestyles so many of us have. They benifit from the routien and consistancy of uninterrupted, predictable, simple life.

just a thought. a different take on the conclusions we can draw from book slike that. Why do we assume thier lives were chaotic and full of diversity from day to day and the kids were just along for the exciting ride. frmo what I read in the CC (and I didn't read the other one so I can not comment) I don't see that as the case (although as I remember that wasn't the case) again though people tend to look for conclusions that justify thier preferences.