This has to end. (Warning a long venting post) - Page 2

[Tuesday]

Hugs to you Busy Mom, first of all. I have a 20 month old DS who is not a great sleeper and it is very hard to function at times especially if you've got to get up and work in the "adult world". I can understand your frustration.

I've got no advice, unfortunately. I just thought I'd mention - my DS has been going up and down in his sleep patterns. We seem to go for 2 weeks where he may wake every 2 or 3 hours and more frequently after 4 a.m. Then, suddenly, for whatever reason, one night he will will wake every 60 -45 minutes. Sometimes, I think it's because he is teething, having a growth spurt or perhaps, like mostly recently, he is feverish and is ill. There are many days where I wake every 60 minutes through the night and just when I think I am going to go crazy, he starts waking every 3 hours and I get a break. I co-sleep with DS in my bed and this helps my sleeping. We have a fan on for white noise too.

At 14 months and then around 18 months, I've noticed DS having particularly tough time sleeping. Like I said, we go in cycles - it's never perfect and I envy moms with different babies but he is what he is ....


I read anthropologist Meredith Small's Our Babies, Ourselves and my impression was that infants and young children have short sleep cycles until they are around 4 or 5 years old. Obviously, every child is different. I have friends whose kids all slept 8 hours straight by 1 month, 6 months, 1 year. On the other hand, I know women like me who have children that wake frequently. I find the lack of sleep brain numbing but what I tell myself is I can and will get through this because eventually we will all be sleeping regularly again and the sleepless red-eyed days and nights will be a blurry memory (like most of my struggles).

My MIL will tell me that DS should be sleeping through the night and I just ignore her. She seems to love to tell me about DH and his siblings all being "such great sleepers". IT's all very absurd because he is NOT a "good sleeper" now and my MIL suffers from insomnia. So, I'm just curious why she thinks it's important to drill this fact into my head.

In any case, I hope somehow you get through the next months. I suspect things will eventually get better .... it's just getting through those days isn't it. I feel like so many days I am a zombie but I know when DS is older, I'll be wishing he was still a sweet little toddler and I'll barely remember how tired and cranky I was. That's what I keep telling myself !!!

[Ellien C]

So let me just say that I night-weaned MUCH earlier than 14 months. I did have to get up and go to work, but so what if I didn't?

You DO NOT need to be a martyr to be a good AP mom. You need to be a master and balancing EVERYONE's needs. This includes you as a wife and you as a daughter or neighbor as well. So get creative, think outside the box and look inside youseself for what you need to do. Maybe this means night-weaning and maybe it means something else. But the answer for you is inside yourself. You don't need to follow some arbitrary AP "rules." They don't exist. There are plenty of traditional cultures that help babes along their way to independence. There are plenty of animal models where the mothers shoo the young away. They just do what comes naturally and don't overthink it ya know?

I'm not trying to be harsh here - but to give you some confidence to move outside of something that doesn't seem to be working. There's a whole lot of middle ground between total CLW (including at night) and CIO (which are different animals, but you get the picture). Once you know what you to do, come back and ask for suggestions on how to implement it. We'll be here.

[Treasuremapper]

It depends on the kids, but sometimes you can improve things easily, not always thoug

Yeah, sadly, for some kids waking up that much is normal. My first dd woke up that much and she didn't start sleeping through the night on most nights until she was two and a half years old.

The thing that helped us the most to reduce the nightwakings (this did not eliminate them, but it cut them down by almost two thirds) was to make sure that she was very comfortable. Here is what we did:

1. A big snack right before bed (followed by the last day's toothbrushing, of course). This was something filling and easy to digest, and required us to move her biggest meal of the day to 4pm with smaller portions at dinner. The snack was usually Earth's Best Plums, Bananas and Rice or a banana or applesauce or a slice of whole wheat bread. Bland and filling.

2. We kept a sippy cup of ice water by the bed and always offered that first before nursing. Yes, she fussed at first, but this cut way down on the length of nursing as well as the number of wakings.

3. Temperature: a) Cool air in the room, even if it sent our AC bill through the roof.
b) Warm, soft pajamas with socks on her feet. The combination of soft warm pajamas (we love Hanna Andersson baby zippers http://www.hannaandersson.com) and cool air made a big difference.

4. Put all the dogs in the garage so their barking would not wake her up. If there is some noise that is waking your child up, figure out what it is and reduce or eliminate or mask it.

5. In our family, dh was a major insomniac and was a big part of the problem because he woke up off and on all night long and then crept (not nearly as quietly as he imagined) around the house, in and out of the bed, etc., repeatedly waking her up. He broke this habit when he realized it was driving everyone else crazy. Now he sleeps better than ever.

6. Soft, soft sheets and blankets. We use one hundred percent cotton jersey knit sheets, which feel like an old soft Tshirt.

7. Plenty of room on the bed. In our case, we have a kingsized mattress on the floor with a single mattress on the floor right next to it. That way, Gracie gets to snuggle up to her parents but she has her own comfortable space.

8. If, by some fluke, she takes a nap in the afternoon, I would wake her up if the nap went past 4pm, even if that meant she was cranky for the rest of the day. If we didn't do that, she would be up during the night, and then the horrible cycle would continue for a week. If you are working during the day, your child's care provider might be enjoying a late afternoon nap for your child that is wreaking havoc on your nighttime routine.

That's all I can think of right now. I think you might be amazed how big a difference this stuff makes, almost overnight, especially the snack/sippy cup thing. A lot of my children's night nursing was due to hunger and thirst. My mother said that in the sixties with her kids, there was a saying "feed them, don't wean them." I have to say that it seems to work.

Good luck.

[Treasuremapper]

Oh, I just remembered something else. After my second daughter was born, my dh took over a lot of the older daughter's nightwakings. We shared the time awake in the middle of the night, which helped me to get some sleep. DH would put her in a stroller (A BOB, which is a jogger with full suspension) and walk her until she fell asleep. I realize that this plan requires a partner, a good jogger, and a safe neighborhood, but it did help us.

[Hope'smom]

Re:

I didn't get a chance to read all the other responses--but consider some other things, too.
You said that she is not sick or teething or allergic--but what about something along the lines of silent reflux?
It's just a thought. My first dd suffered (and I mean suffered) through silent reflux and sleep problems often accompany reflux. It's just a suggestion, and maybe not the answer.

The other thing is this: try a homeopathic remedy called pulsatilla.
It's a bit of a catch-all remedy when it comes to infants--and can be used for any ailment from sleep issues, to teething, to crankiness (yes, crankiness), etc.
Homeopathic remedies do not have the side effect concerns of main stream meds, and you can probably buy it at your local health food store--or even some main stream stores, like Wal-Mart.

We use a homeopath instead of a mainstream ped. and family doc and it has made all the difference in the health and well-being of our kids and ourselves.

In fact, the latest issue of Mothering magazine has the VERY BEST article when it comes to homeopathic remedies for common colds and flu that I've seen in a long time. And we've been seeing a homeopathic doc for years now.

Best of luck---my ds is 14 months, too--and still nurses and has yet to ever sleep through the night...and I stay home with him and my dd--and ever since they were both born, I would swear that I am losing my short-term memory due to lack of sleep. I probably am, to some degree, but I swear homeopathic remedies help the kids and me, too!

[WriterMama]

Here's a link to Dr. Gordon's advice: http://www.drjaygordon.com/ap/sleep.htm

[Mindy70]

Just wanted to add that when dd was 14 mths, we too did the Jay Gordon Night weaning. It worked great, and within a few weeks she was sleeping through the night w/o nursing. Actually, sooner than that, though she would still have setbacks and wake up wanting to nurse, but I stayed consistent and she only fussed for a few minutes.

REally, you have to give it a try. Be prepared to hold her the first time you refuse the boobie, because she will be pretty mad and suprised, but you will be right there with her. DD cried perhaps 20 minutes the first night, maybe 10 the second night, and just a few the third night when she wanted nummies. After that, she "got it" and really was much happier during the day- and so was I.

[fuller2]

Re: night weaning--my son was similar to your baby, and one day when he was about 16 months old I just said, "Okay, enough. We're nightweaning now." And you know what? It was WAY less traumatic than I imagined. Granted, a pacifier really helped, but after a few nights of him sitting up and yelling "NA NA!!!" and crying for a few seconds he was fine. AND, he immediately started sleeping longer, for 3-4 hours stretches instead of 1-2 hours. He still wakes 1 or 2 times a night now at 22 months (though even those seem to be on their way out, knock on wood) but I just say Na-na is sleeping, cuddle him or give him the pacifier, and he conks out almost immediately. Now I can even just SAY to him, "Go back to sleep, it's OK," and he lays back down and goes to sleep. I have come to realize that he likes me to be gently 'in charge' as it were, that he expects it and respects it. It's my job, you know?

I also had a friend like you, and at her daughter's 1st birthday she said, Enough! and had her daughter CIO in the crib (where she'd never slept before) while she was there touching her and talking to her, and within 3 days her daughter slept through the night. My friend, who really had been almost psuchotic with sleep deprivation, said she just felt like an idiot. "Why didn't I do this before???" Now she has a second and this kid at 6 months sleeps MUCH better than the first--she didn't make him CIO, but she thinks it's because she just doesn't have as much time to agonize over every little thing or fuss and worry about everything he does, and sometimes, yes, he does get left to cry for a minute or two because she's busy with the other one. When she turns around he's fast asleep. And he's the happiest kid around.

It's OK to make boundaries. You don't have to sacrifice yourself--that is not the point of good mothering! A little bit of crying because of a healthy change at 14 months is not going to hurt your kid. But you being angry and resentful and completely fried with exhaustion could.

[plantmommy]

You know, what I did with ds at age 2, being pregnant and exhausted, was similiar to Dr. Jay's suggestions (which I'd never heard of) but something that I did that he doesn't suggest, I think would be very helpful, since babes can't tell time.

I would nurse at will until I was ready for bed, and at that time, he would always wake to nurse. When he woke at that time, I would nurse, and explain that it's time for mommy to sleep after he was done, and that we would not have any more nummies UNTIL IT WAS LIGHT OUT. I think Dr. Jay's idea of 6 am, or any arbitrary hour, would be much harder for baby to "get". This way, babe knows when it's light out, and when it is ok for them to be up and to nurse. It's not hit or miss, keep trying. If he woke and it was still dark, he'd get love and cuddles and rubs and hugs, but no nummies. If he woke and it was light, he'd know it was ok to nurse. So, over the course of a few nights, he learned that if he woke and it was dark, he might as well just cuddle up and go back to sleep.

I might add that for this particular babe, he didn't sleep through the night on his own until he was 5 years old. But he also didn't wake and disturb mommy when he woke up, unless it was just his tossing and turning, after he got the hang of the non-night-nursing. Occasionally he still needed patting, and once he was 3 and going to sleep in his own bed, he would wake during the night, come into our bed, cuddle up and go back to sleep.

His younger sister, otoh, was always a good sleeper and I never needed to do anything like this.

[jgale]

No solutions, just more support. I'm in a similar boat. A wise friend whose 3 kids are older (teenagers) told me this when my son was a newborn: breastfeeding is a negotiated relationship. That has been the most helpful thing that anyone has told me on this crazy journey. Parenting is a negotiated relationship. This is our children's first real relationship and they need to know that there are other needs besides their own involved. And there's no need to feel guilty about making changes so that things are working for you (well in theory anyway).

We are getting ready to make some changes at night also--my son is an every 1-2 hour kind of guy too. We haven't decided when or how, so I'm going to keep watching this thread for more ideas.

Good luck and lots of hugs to you. This is so hard. Jessi

[Too Busy]

WOW! So much support and advice! THANK YOU! Truly, I am reading all of these posts and thinking of ways to implement them into our situation to see if they help.

We are 100% certain these wakings are not health-related. No reflux anymore and she does have all but her final molars. It has become very clear over the past two nights that she is rousing, but is not happy about rousing and is unable to fall back to sleep easily. My DH and I have been taking turns with her at night to note what is going on. It is like one moment she is asleep and the next she is rolling around and wide awake. As soon as she is aware of this, she starts to get really angy and sort of throws herself around the futon, rubbing her face into the mattress and then she climbs on top of us and cries into our faces... like she is asking us to help her figure it out.

She isn't nursing back to sleep anymore either. So all of a sudden, in the middle of nursing she will pop of and roll around crying. If I try to latch her on again, she bites, which indicates that she doesn't want anymore. So we are doing Dr.JG's technique to help her find new ways to fall asleep.

We have found that she gets angry if its me soothing her, so my DH is doing most of it. He is better adjusted to his MS meds, so he's not sleeping as deeply as he used to and is able to sleep next to her.

So far she is still waking as much as ever, but she goes back to sleep pretty fast with him. I hope this helps her.

I agree that all babies are different. And I agree that some wake more than others, etc. What I do not agree with is that it is normal for my DD. She is clearly wanting to sleep, but not able. I really think that her rough start kept her from developing a natural sleep pattern and as a result her brain is "used" to waking so much.

Anyway, still here, still sleepy and rambling. Just wanted to post a thank you for all of your thoughtful posts and advice. We're trying everything you've suggested!

[mainegirl]

:


I am watching this thread with interest because my 18m old son does not want to sleep at all. He'll get so tired and is obviously exhausted, but if he wakes up the slightest bit (in my arms, being put into bed, being nursed, etc.) he will kick his legs and thrash and shout, "No! No!" until he wakes himself up, then he'll start wailing. It's awful.

I'm considering trying to night-wean because he would stay latched on all night if he could, and to be frank I'm getting awfully sore because as he nods off, he nips. Well, let's be honest. Chomps.

I'm so pooped, most days when I get up for work he's fast asleep and it makes me so mad! He keeps me up all night long then when it's time to get out of bed there he is, cherubic and angelic.

There are days I consider locking myself in the bathroom just so I can try and get some sleep in the bathtub.

- Jen

[Sofiamomma]

I'm curious what you mean by "rough start"? Was she a NICU baby? There may be some homeopathic, or naturopathic, or body work things you could try.

[mosschops]

I night weaned my first son, Joe at 15 months, I just *couldn't* wake up every hour any more. I felt like i'd lost my soul, let alone my mind!! The ONLY way that we could do it was for me to sleep downstairs for a while (so that I couldn't hear him!) and for dp to do the night parenting. It really only took a few nights, during which time I really looked after dp (cooked the meals, did the cleaning, shopping etc.) so that he could manage on no sleep (!). I was happy to, I was having my first nights sleep in about 18 months!!

I was back at work then, as well.

Noah, my 2nd son, was heading exactly the same way... and d'you what I did? I put him into a cot at 12 months. I don't feel in the least bit guilty, or bad, or less 'ap' (or whatever label) about this, I just feel like I have the benefit of experience that I won't let myself, and him as well, get to the point where we're so tired that we can't even think straight.

I think that a large part of the problem in this situation is that you're so tired that you just can't come up with a solution, you just offer a boob in a desperate attempt to get the sleep that your body and mind is so powerfully craving. and you're working too??! night wean mama, really.

Good luck - let us all know how you get on!

Steph

[mainegirl]

Originally Posted by mosschops

I think that a large part of the problem in this situation is that you're so tired that you just can't come up with a solution, you just offer a boob in a desperate attempt to get the sleep that your body and mind is so powerfully craving. and you're working too??! night wean mama, really.

I realize this was directed at the OP but it sounds EXACTLY like my situation. So I'll consider it for me, too

- Jen!

[Sofiamomma]

She says it's not the night nursing, though, that is the problem. It sounds like the babe is nightwaking and can't get back to sleep, nursing or no. Is that right, Too Busy?

[Too Busy]

Originally Posted by Sofiamomma

She says it's not the night nursing, though, that is the problem. It sounds like the babe is nightwaking and can't get back to sleep, nursing or no. Is that right, Too Busy?

Yes and no... she was waking a million times and I would nurse her back to sleep. That was a problem and then it started taking longer and longer to get her back to sleep and then nursing stopped working.

I tried to post an answer to her "rough start", too... but it disappeared? Anyway, she was born at 37 weeks because of AROM. She wasn't ready to come out and had bad jaundice and couldn't nurse and ended up FTT. So we were wawking her every two hours to eat for 6 weeks before we got her to exclusive breast. And then she started having colic, which turned out to be reflux and would wake with pain constantly. This went on until about 6 months.

When we first brought her home, we were letting her sleep however she wanted, but when her billi levels kept rising, the nurse told us we had to wake her or she would never learn to nurse and would never get her levels down. So we followed instructions to a tee out of lack of knowledge and fear.

Anyway, what we found out from working with an LC around 3 weeks was that we didn't need to keep interrupting her natural sleep pattern to eat. At that point it was too late and she was already up every hour like we had been doing.

Then the reflux kicked up and she was always waking with pain. I know that it could have happened this way anyway, but I truly think she would be a different "sleeper" if things had gone differently. I think that "schedule" we had set the pace and then the reflux ingrained it.

She can put herself to sleep sometimes. I can hear her do it... but it doesn't happen often and at this point sucking is not working anymore. And the poor thing is just lost. We are having some BREAKTHRU success with my DH laying with her and soothing her (She gets too mad with me) but she is still waking nearly every 60-90 minutes and getting mad.

Sorry so long winded. This has just been inside for such a long time and its just so frustrating to want to do what you believe is the right thing, but have it turn out to be different. And now that nursing isn't working... well, this is just crazy.

Thank you for listening to me and trying to help!!!

[Henry's_Mamma]

Too Busy ... I've been lurking and I just wanted to offer a of support as my ds, who is basically the same age as your dd, is at a very similar point. Although I WAH (rather poorly at the moment, I might add), I can't imagine having to be at a "real" job everyday and going through what I/we do. You deserve a . Hang in there! And let us know if you find something that works!

[mosschops]

Originally Posted by Too Busy

... And the poor thing is just lost. We are having some BREAKTHRU success with my DH laying with her and soothing her (She gets too mad with me) but she is still waking nearly every 60-90 minutes and getting mad.

This is EXACTLY why i had to sleep downstairs! I just couldn't get J to sleep, because he associated me with nursing. DP could, however, and they got to a point where if he woke dp could 'snuggle' him to sleep on his chest, even, eventually, when we all co-slept, which we did 'till he was three.

J was born at 37 wks too, and had to have an op and had some reflux (although not as extreme as your experiences, you poor things!)

I remember feeling such guilt when dp started the night parenting, such guilt for J, such stress... and then the utter joy when he started to sleep longer stretches... he's still a 'spirited' chap, i've been up with him since 5am this am!! but that's another issue!!

xxx

[Sofiamomma]

I'm not really sure exactly what might help, but your idea about her brain being "wired" a certain way has such a strong ring of truth to it. I'll bet you are intuiting exactly what the problem is. It sounds like what you are doing is working, so certainly to keep doing that may be all you need. I just wonder if there are natural and body work things you can try in order to rewire her brain. Things like craniosacral therapy, network spinal analysis (that one seems the most promising and probably quickest, not too expensive either, since she is young), infant massage, homeopathic remedies for fear and for sleep issues to name a few.