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whaddya think?

post #1 of 19
Thread Starter 
I understand that the point of uc is to let your body do its thing naturally and undisturbed. I am intrigued by the idea in theory, but when it comes to actually doing it I have some concerns due to my first birth. I had a midwife in a hospital and was pleased with the overall experience. My concern stems from the fact that I pushed for 3 hours. That was the only part where I thought " I don't think I can do this for much longer". Although I had the urge to push, contractions nver got closer than 5 minutes apart and after 2 hours of (directed) pushing, the end was not looking very close. I agreed to pitocin because a doctor would have to be called (per hospital policy) after 2 hours. I began making good progress and pushed for one more hour. Up to this point there really had been little physical intervention (only intermittent monitering), so the aspect of being at home without medical paraphanalia doesn't bug me much. Now here's my questions: How common is this long of a second stage?(I do know that my second labor could very well be shorter just because it wouldn't be my body's first time at this) How much of the scenario is likely caused by the setting rather than my body? I just wonder how long it would have taken without directed pushing - less, more? I needed a few stitches, but I've already asked about that part. So, what do you all think about this?
post #2 of 19
Michel Odent writes about normal physiological second stage:

Quote:
I have adopted the term "fetus ejection reflex" (which had previously been used to refer to non-human mammals) to refer to the very last contractions before the birth of humans when the birth process has been undisturbed and unguided. During a typical "fetus ejection reflex," women have a tendency to be upright, have a need to grasp something or someone, and are full of energy. Some women seem to be euphoric, others seem to be angry, while others express a transitory fear. All of these behaviors are compatible with a sudden release of adrenaline. They are associated with two or three strong contractions. This reflex is almost unknown in hospital delivery rooms, and it is seldom seen even at home births if another person takes on the role of "coach," "guide," "helper," "support person," or "observer."
A long second stage is common in hospitals. Less so in homebirth. Even less so in unassisted birth. This is because the most common reason for a long second stage is short-circuiting of the hormonal process due to voluntary pushing, directed pushing, inhibition, etc. So yeah, I think it's pretty reasonable to assume that you would have had it easier had you allowed second stage to happen spontaneously.

What was this "urge to push" like? Was it overwhelming? Was your body just doing it? (I assume not, since your pushing was directed -- if your body was already doing it, direction would have been superfluous.)

Or was it just a compelling desire to bear down a bit? That's VERY common, and doesn't mean that the body is ready to admit the baby through and that you should push as hard as you can. It does mean: bear down a bit.
post #3 of 19
i wonder too what position you were in for pushing? it can sometimes be a factor.. often moving around to push helps the baby a lot...
if your babies heart rate was fine there is no reason to rush pushing.. if your not feeling the urge i wouldn't say at all that you should be pushing for hours.. if baby is fine it is fine..it can be a lovely little rest in fact..when your *ready* but not feeling the urge.. in hospital your set on a clock and what your body wants or needs is of little signifigance.. there is no reason that after 2 hours a doctor gets called in...they are lookgin for trouble where there likely isn't any.. you obviously are fully capable you delivered.. the issue the staff had was with time.. if your pushing that entire time with someone telling (maybe even yelling) at you to do it.. it would be exhausting.. but all in all your body knows what it is doing..when your ready to push you know it..
post #4 of 19
I felt the urge to push long before I was fully dilated with my last birth. Not an overwhelming urge to push, but more the sense that "if I could just push down on this, I would feel much better". With the births of my 2 girls, I didn't feel the urge to push at all, but did so when fully dilated just because I wanted my baby as quickly as possible.

With my first baby, I know I pushed a good 2 hours or more. I was also propped up on my tailbone on a high table (typical "lamaze" position at the time) and was SCARED TO DEATH of falling off the table! I was tense, the baby's shoulders got stuck for a moment, the doctor gave me an episiotomy so he could get his fingers in there to corkscrew him loose.....and all the while my body was telling me to get on my hands and knees on the floor. That's where I should have been. All my other babies have been birthed on hands & knees, on the floor, with no tearing or getting stuck (even my 9 pounder), within 20 minutes.

I'd say it's likely to expect things to go MUCH faster if you go with what your body tells you.....especially after you've already had your first baby vaginally.
post #5 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by mehndi mama
I was also propped up on my tailbone on a high table (typical "lamaze" position at the time) and was SCARED TO DEATH of falling off the table! I was tense, the baby's shoulders got stuck for a moment, the doctor gave me an episiotomy so he could get his fingers in there to corkscrew him loose.....and all the while my body was telling me to get on my hands and knees on the floor. That's where I should have been. All my other babies have been birthed on hands & knees, on the floor, with no tearing or getting stuck (even my 9 pounder), within 20 minutes.

I'd say it's likely to expect things to go MUCH faster if you go with what your body tells you.....especially after you've already had your first baby vaginally.
I have had a very similar experience in the hospital births of both my first 2 babies. Actually with the first I was so much in the altered state of labor but frightened by being around the people in the hospital by the time they had me hop on the gurney( scary) and then into the room of masked faces- I was disassociated and could not even feel my body, everyone was yelling at me( and I was unmedicated) and I felt like I wasn't doing anything, baby came out in 3 pushes, with a doctor freaking out because the day before he said the baby was about 5# and it would be a month till I would have the baby, the next day she was 10 lbs 5 oz, he said something while the baby was coming out like" its huge" . I was apologizing to the nurses about not getting it right, I felt so incapable, they stuck me in a recovery room where they left me alone too long and I hemorrhaged in there ( where was my baby).
Our second born in the hospital we were there for about 1/2 hr before he was born 10#11oz baby, this time I had to insist to the nurses I was pushing- uncontrollably that urge to bear down- when they realized it they freaked out and pushed a gurney into the room and had me hop over to it, he crowned, then head born on the gurney- but this scared me to death to be on the gurney- actually the whole thing the moving from one high place to a moving skinny table, so for a short time the baby could have emerged and fell onto the floor- absolutely no safety. From this fear and tension I could not feel the urge to push the same way I did before but he was mostly born and it worked out fast as well but I still got an epis- fear and other people can really throw me out of my body, into being an observer floating somewhere on the ceiling.
my other 2 births were at home 1 midwife attended and 1 uc. Both times I was really present for pushing, and only pushed what I felt when I felt.
As for Michel Odent, I think that he is very insightful but I would put some of his observations into context. At his hospital in France women were attended, much of the time a midwife was in the room if outside the room they listened to the women if they sounded unusual or close to delivery they were ready to be more present. So these women gave birth in a hospital where emergency services were in the same building and were being monitored. They did not want women to be informed or educated about birth, so they would know a woman was going to have a breech or twins and not tell her, just prepare for the birth themselves. They felt the less a woman knows the better as long as they could handle the tricky stuff themselves. These women had to leave home in labor to go to the hospital to give birth in a protected setting, where if there was a problem they would be taken care of. A friend of mine who gave birth to her first while, at Michel Odent's hospital in France was moving around getting ready to push her baby out and the doctor was all of a sudden sitting next to her- she was a little surprised by his presence because they were told the doctor usually only attends for more complicated births most births were attended by midwives.
post #6 of 19
What is directed pushing?

I learned in Bradley class that sometimes women will be fully dilated, but not yet have the urge to push. This is okay...some bodies or babies (who knows?) need a rest before the pushing starts. I think in hospitals this is overlooked and women are told to start pushing arbitrarily at 10 cm. This probably leads to longer push times.

I really enjoyed my home birth. I was thinking about uc the other day...would I do it? I think I would if I were denied the option of having a midwife attended home birth, but I loved having my midwives there. I felt safer, I think, knowing they were equipped with knowledge, and even oxygen and hemmorage meds. Even though I doubted I would need any of that. I felt safer knowing we were intermittedly monitoring the baby. It was good for my personal comfort level.

I was also blessed with wonderful women who really trust the birth process. They didn't check my dilation at all. When I first pushed, it was just this amazing thing my body totally did BY ITSELF. I remember saying "you guys, my body just pushed". "That's okay, you're ready" they said. The feeling was so bizarre, my body just absolutely bearing down and squeezing. For me, it was 45 minutes of pushing. So I'm told...time has no meaning.
post #7 of 19
dilation doesn't mean time to push. your body will tell you. once it tells you, you can't ignore it. waiting for the urge allows contractions to nudge the baby into the movements necessary for the head to work through the pelvis slowly. all that "pushing" just tires people out and low and behold out comes the vacuum and wow they come right out!

I try not to do any vag exam (when working as a labor rn) in the late labor stage and just wait for pt to say 'i have to poo" i say oh great time to have a baby! this works even on the pts with epidurals.
post #8 of 19
"I have adopted the term "fetus ejection reflex" (which had previously been used to refer to non-human mammals) to refer to the very last contractions before the birth of humans when the birth process has been undisturbed and unguided. During a typical "fetus ejection reflex," women have a tendency to be upright, have a need to grasp something or someone, and are full of energy. Some women seem to be euphoric, others seem to be angry, while others express a transitory fear. All of these behaviors are compatible with a sudden release of adrenaline. They are associated with two or three strong contractions. This reflex is almost unknown in hospital delivery rooms, and it is seldom seen even at home births if another person takes on the role of "coach," "guide," "helper," "support person," or "observer." "


WOW!!! I have read this before, but not since my second birth (UC). This is EXACTLY what happened to me. It was crazy! The baby's head was not in my birth canal at all (that I could feel), and I needed to stand up, and then all of a sudden my body was bearing down and I was grabbing my husband and shouting, "the head, the head!" When I squatted down, her head was a third of the way out. I can't remember if there were one or two contractions more, but I'm thinking one because she came out so fast after that. There were several minutes that I just had to wait after she was crowning for the next contraction.

I had a wonderful, midwife assisted homebirth with my first, after taking Bradley classes. I would not exactly call it directed pushing, but there was some "advice" given during the pushing stage. I pushed for half an hour, which was five or six contractions (because they were five minutes apart). It felt good to push, and I definitely had a strong urge to, but it was nothing like my body doing it FOR me, as in my second birth.

I have to agree with everything Blueviolet wrote in her post!!! You articulate your thoughts so clearly, whenever I read your posts, I think, yes, that's what I mean!
post #9 of 19
LOL, Dancermom, I always think I'm not being clear enough, so thank you. I had the same experience, the one time that I did not think to myself that I was going to start pushing. If you're thinking that before doing it, then it's not a true spontaneous reflex. It's you (or someone else) trying to direct things and make them happen before the body is really ready for them. Which makes for a longer, more arduous process.
post #10 of 19
I have to laugh when people say about their labors, "oh, my body does not know how to give birth because I was getting bearing down urges when I was only 5 cm. dilated!" My body was giving me bearing down urges when I was seven months pregnant. No, the birth was not imminent. Obviously it was NOT a sign to start trying to get the baby out. There was some reason for it, though. I felt very strongly that it was helping to prepare the tissues. Just a little ahead of time. I'm sure that happens to a lot of women, just more commonly during labor. It's the body getting ready, that's all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by moonstarmama
What is directed pushing?
When someone else offers suggestions (to put it nicely, although it is often more like commands) as to when and/or how to start pushing.

Quote:
I learned in Bradley class that sometimes women will be fully dilated, but not yet have the urge to push. This is okay...some bodies or babies (who knows?) need a rest before the pushing starts. I think in hospitals this is overlooked and women are told to start pushing arbitrarily at 10 cm. This probably leads to longer push times.
Yes, yes, yes! The "10 cm" rule drives me bonkers. It is absolutely arbitrary and has nothing to do with whether the body is actually ready. Speaking in terms of the chemical choreography of birth, trying to get the baby out before the body is ready for it interferes with the body's feedback to the brain, leading to longer pushing times and tissues that are not able to stretch fully.
post #11 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by mwherbs
As for Michel Odent, I think that he is very insightful but I would put some of his observations into context. At his hospital in France women were attended, much of the time a midwife was in the room if outside the room they listened to the women if they sounded unusual or close to delivery they were ready to be more present. So these women gave birth in a hospital where emergency services were in the same building and were being monitored. They did not want women to be informed or educated about birth, so they would know a woman was going to have a breech or twins and not tell her, just prepare for the birth themselves. They felt the less a woman knows the better as long as they could handle the tricky stuff themselves. These women had to leave home in labor to go to the hospital to give birth in a protected setting, where if there was a problem they would be taken care of. A friend of mine who gave birth to her first while, at Michel Odent's hospital in France was moving around getting ready to push her baby out and the doctor was all of a sudden sitting next to her- she was a little surprised by his presence because they were told the doctor usually only attends for more complicated births most births were attended by midwives.
The hospital in Pithuviers was a long time ago and where he was just beginning to put together some of his ideas about birth. They were quite radical at the time (well, that kind of hospital still is, unfortunately) but not in an extreme sense. At the time they were focusing on things like water birth (I think Pithuviers had the first water birth, intended anyway), upright birth (as were the Bradley people at the time,) low lights, comfortable atmosphere, etc. Obviously he hadn't yet figured out the part about how much just feeling observed affects the process -- he himself would be right in there lifting the woman up into a squat, lol.

Another couple things to keep in mind is that homebirth was not legal (not sure if it is now, although France is certainly controlling about birth issues in general...) and Odent was trained to monitor, intervene, etc. So he was working through all that, experimenting. His idea about spontaneous birth do not appear in his book about Pithuviers ("Birth Reborn"), that I can remember anyway. I don't know about his later books (I have yet to read them) but his articles, such as the one from which I quoted above, are pretty to the point about how much direction and the feeling of being observed affects the process.

That's interesting about them keeping information from the mother... do you happen to remember where that was talked about? I do remember reading about how he thought the most important information about birth would be gotten from other mothers, not from doctors, which is why they set up a weekly get-together so that women would have access to each other.
post #12 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by blueviolet
I have to laugh when people say about their labors, "oh, my body does not know how to give birth because I was getting bearing down urges when I was only 5 cm. dilated!" My body was giving me bearing down urges when I was seven months pregnant.
Me too! I kept thinking that maybe I shouldn't, maybe I'd break my water! Or maybe this or that! But it felt good. It felt right. All through my last trimester! How wonderful to hear somebody else say they felt the same thing.

Then, during that baby's labor, I didn't even realize I was bearing down.. I was in the tub and just got myself in the happiest position I could find. Then the nurse asked.. are you bearing down? I didn't know. I didn't care! They dragged me out of the tub and back to the room (sadly I was in a hospital, but still had a pretty good experience.) I just wanted to squat. They had to pick me up and put me on the bed, I demanded a squat bar and as soon as I got one, I squatted, pushed once with my body (it was already doing it), my water broke and there he was! At which point they put me on my back. (I stayed in a balled up squat the whole time) I've been able to just go to a happy place and listen to my body even in the middle of the hospital hysteria.. I can't wait to just do what works without the constant involvement and intervention of strange hands.

I told everyone in the beginning.... the first person, masked, robed, trained or otherwise, to get in my face (or not) and yell or say 'push' or start counting would be punched or kicked, whichever felt best to my body at the time. Thankfully, they believed me. I pushed about 4 times with the first... the second was the one-push baby.

Sorry to ramble!
lizzie
post #13 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by DancerMom
I have to agree with everything Blueviolet wrote in her post!!! You articulate your thoughts so clearly, whenever I read your posts, I think, yes, that's what I mean!
I agree- I love reading Blueviolets posts too. Very insightful!

I took lamaze for my first birth. Afterwards, I saw the instructor in the hospital and even then I knew the whole labor and pushing style was wrong. I told her, "Remember when you said the breathing should be Hee Hee Hoo? I tried that and began to hyperventilate!"
So I eventually breathed the way I felt I should, because I felt the urge to push, even with an epidural, I felt the urge and started to grunt. When I did, the nurses yelled at me to stop pushing and breathe through it. I wasn't allowed to push !(because my doctor wasnt there yet )
With my UC, I felt the same urges, and went with it- I must say the feeling was soo much more satisfying the 2nd time around to give into the urges without trying to surpress them, and of course without anyone yelling at me either!
post #14 of 19
Gee, you're making me blush...

"Me too! I kept thinking that maybe I shouldn't, maybe I'd break my water! Or maybe this or that! But it felt good. It felt right. All through my last trimester!"

Yep. And I just want to add, because I didn't make it clear in my post, that I had the same thought -- that maybe I shouldn't -- so at first I was holding back a bit, but over time I got braver (as it appeared that it wasn't hurting anything) and started really going with it. Whatever felt good. And boy did it ever!
post #15 of 19
blueviolet wrote>>>>>>>>>>

That's interesting about them keeping information from the mother... do you happen to remember where that was talked about? I do remember reading about how he thought the most important information about birth would be gotten from other mothers, not from doctors, which is why they set up a weekly get-together so that women would have access to each other.[/QUOTE]

So this would be personal communication. with women who have birthed with him, women who have worked with him and out of his own mouth. This is the "nocebo". I am not sure about evolution, he is absolutely behind the midwifery model. Thinks someone else should be responsible for the "scary stuff" even when here and was working in England on iron/anemia and the fish as protective against pre eclampsia--- just go over diet and suggest fish 1-2x a week, don't go into the pre eclampsia or brain development stuff it'll just worry moms>cathaclomides(sp)> more pathology
post #16 of 19
(Sorry to the OP for going so OT...)

So this would be personal communication. with women who have birthed with him, women who have worked with him and out of his own mouth. This is the "nocebo".

Actually, the nocebo effect is technically not about keeping women in the dark about their medical situation, but about the danger of putting a non-evidenced-based negative spin on it. Odent elaborates here: http://www.birthpsychology.com/primalhealth/
post #17 of 19
Funny, I was just remembering two doula clients who were pushing in the car. Both were not more than 5 minutes apart.

One began to push as we entered the hospital parking lot. The nurses yelled at me for not bringing me in sooner. I told them the mom had made her own choices, was never closer than 5 minutes apart, and HypnoBirthing is dangerous. Then they yelled at her not to push until the doctor got there. There was a very scared-looking resident at her crotch. Then, over an hour later, at 5 minutes apart, she had the "huge" 9 1/2 puond baby.

The other was pushing at home, got in the car, and drove to a big city hospital, got stuck in traffic on a bridge, went to the hospital in an ambulance, and hung around in the hospital room for over an hour before she actually had the baby, most of the time without an attendant.

Five minutes apart, my Aunt Matilda. Y'all just labor how you labor. I had the most wonderful experience with my first in which I was pushing for 6 hours, and I did not know anything was wrong. Nothing truly was.

Just stay well-hydrated, nap here and there, and nibble on little snacks. I have, too, seen a pooped uterus space out and get weaker.

Don't y'all worry about any little thing.
post #18 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by GatorNNP
dilation doesn't mean time to push. your body will tell you. once it tells you, you can't ignore it. waiting for the urge allows contractions to nudge the baby into the movements necessary for the head to work through the pelvis slowly. all that "pushing" just tires people out and low and behold out comes the vacuum and wow they come right out!

I try not to do any vag exam (when working as a labor rn) in the late labor stage and just wait for pt to say 'i have to poo" i say oh great time to have a baby! this works even on the pts with epidurals.
absolutely ditto!!!! I may well have been fully dilated before my body started pushing. I don't know, I refused internals after the discouraging one at 5cm. When my body started pushing I had no option but to let it. I couldn't do anything else (including "pushing" as people popularly know it).
post #19 of 19
In my UC, I did not do any pushing, till my body told me to. I was totally dialated for a long time (I could tell I was, cause I couldn't feel any cervical lip), and it was quite painless, but if it hadn't been, I imagine I would want to get that baby out of there *now*. It was almost orgasmic, once my body started pushing. The baby was out in two-three contractions.

Needless to say, I believe in the Human fetal ejection reflex.
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