aluminum pans....spinoff question from teflon thread - Page 2

[xenabyte]

Here is an interesting bit of info on 'non stick' coatings. I put the 'technical/ 'safety' info from a few different sites in quotes so it'd be easier to 'pick apart', the rest is my comments:

Even if you can find a 'high grade' non stick pan, if it has any type of polymer coating, it's probably still an environmental issue, and why buy them and let them continue 'making' them??

The weak link in a nonstick coating is the PTFE polymers within the nonstick layers.

During the application of nonstick materials [PTFE (polytetrafluoro-ethylene)], a solvent called PFOA is released, which is then captured in filters at the plant.

Or as in the case of the article we all saw, that started this discussion, it is leaked into local rivers and water supply...

What happens when a PTFE-based nonstick coatings is used on the stove is an entirely different matter.

Since nonstick was introduced in 1954, it has been common knowledge that particles will break down at extreme temperatures -- much higher than those that are used in kitchens -- and may release fumes that may be harmful to the extra-sensitive respiratory systems of certain exotic birds.

Ok, the 'highly sensitive' birds aside, what about sensitive individuals, babies, children, the elderly and everyone else inhaling 'toxins'...and geez, 1954, you'd think they would have done some more testing on it...?????

Such temperatures usually exceed 660° F and are never reached under normal cooking conditions.

If these temps were never reached in 'normal' cooking situations, how did they find out the birds killed over???

In simple terms, PTFE-based products are completely safe, as long as they are used within the framework for which they are intended. Most nonstick cookware brands are safe in temperatures up to 375° F and a few as high as 450° F.

Ok, erm....I like bake at 400 to 450 ALOT....and direct heat over an 'eye' burner gets way hotter than that....so...thank god I use stainless...

[guerrillamama]

Originally Posted by xenabyte

Yea, almost ALL the 'convenience' cookware now days is teflon coated! I had a sales lady look at me 'funny' because I wanted a 100% stainless steel surface 'fry pan' and not one of they coated ones. She just didn't understand why I would not want one...

I just use a stainless steel pot to cook my rice. Really it's not that much more work to cook it. I even found a 'brown rice' that cooks faster, like the 'Uncle Bens' converted white rice. It tastes great and cooks up beautifully in a regular 'pot'.

Oh, if you are having 'it sticks' issues with regular pots, just add in a pat of butter or a few tsp of a favorite oil when it cooks. It will not stick (ok, it will stick if you burn it bad and all the water cooks out, but in general, it comes out really nice!)

Though, I do understand the attachment to your rice cooker, if it's a plug in and 'leave alone' kind of thing and with a child!! Anything to help!

Thanks Xena... yeah, it's not just a mom thing, it's an asian thing too or maybe a Korean thing. I don't know how other Asians feel about their rice cookers, but koreans tend to be pretty intense about it. My rice has to be STICKY. In the short periods of my life when I've been w/o a rice cooker I have never been able to make good sticky rice in a pot.

Oh well, I can't afford to replace it now anyway. Maybe by the time I can, there will be more alternatives.

Thanks for the lsit!

[mistisa]

guerillamama - i am with ya! i am filipino and i have been slightly depressed thinking about my rice cooker. i have been searching though, but i think all the makers are coated w/ something. i found some brown jasmine rice (never knew they made that) and will try it on the stove tonight.

i am having pains about my george foreman too....its so easy to grill salmon in that thing!!!

[Henry's_Mamma]

Heather .... just wanted to say thanks for all the info. I'm sad about my Calphalon One pans (my mom was really trying to do a good thing) so I'll just have to replace them when I can. I use my stainless as much as possible (it's really forgiving -- and it can go in the dishwasher!!!).

So, for a good egg pan (we make a lot of scrambled eggs around here), stainless or enameled cast iron (forget about regular cast iron -- I have bad luck and no patience)? It's been a REALLY long time since I made eggs in anything other than a non-stick or my Calphalon One (although I tend to cook eggs on a fairly low temp. so I don't feel so awful about it).

And here's a question ... what did you all do with your old stuff? Toss, recycle (where???), garage sale?

[xenabyte]

Originally Posted by Henry's_Mamma

So, for a good egg pan (we make a lot of scrambled eggs around here), stainless or enameled cast iron (forget about regular cast iron -- I have bad luck and no patience)? It's been a REALLY long time since I made eggs in anything other than a non-stick or my Calphalon One (although I tend to cook eggs on a fairly low temp. so I don't feel so awful about it).

I would suggest this : since you usually cook eggs at a low temp, go ahead and use the calphalon, and use a silicon spatula so there is absolutely NO chance you are scratching the surface.

I would also recommend cooking them on as low a temp as is humanly possible to prevent any chance of 'offgassing'. Too bad she didn't buy the Calphalon with just anodized aluminum...the new 'super pans' have the polymer coating infused and in that case, the plain 'anodized aluminum' would have been slightly better for the high temp uses. Is there ANY chance it's under warranty still and you can take it to the store for an exchange?

Originally Posted by Henry's_Mamma

And here's a question ... what did you all do with your old stuff? Toss, recycle (where???), garage sale?

I was given some 'hand me down' cast iron stuff when I got married 12 years ago and it's still the most often grabbed for cooking utensil for alot of things I make. So I only needed to buy a few stainless pots and sauce pans.

I've always had a bad feeling about 'non stick' and never bought any (mainly because I saw cheap non-stick skillets at friends houses with scratches all over them. So I saved up and bought one or two new stainless steel ones when I could afford it. (I did ALOT of one skillet cooked meals back then!

I did have some aluminum baking sheets, and I tossed them and got heavy duty 'professional kitchen' stainless steel ones about 6 years ago. The aluminum ones were not 'non stick' but I didn't want food touching the aluminum.

If you knew for sure that there was something bad about cooking on a particular pot, skillet or pan, how would you feel if you gave it away (or sold it in a garage sale) and later learned that person was affected by it? This is what I went through when I had a few items I was given and decided rather than 'passing them down', I'd just put them in the garbage.

It will take forever and a day to 'biodegrade' (but so will stainless steel pots and pans)...but there really isn't any recycling you can do with them (except let someone else cook on them?) If you know another mom that really doesn't care about it, and would be buying some just like them anyway, then perhaps you can work out a deal and give or sale them to her, but letting her know why you are getting rid of them. Then it's /her/ decision to use them or not. Personally I would toss.

You could send it to the company and say, here take this piece of *%$ back and stop using Polymers that are making us sick and destroying the environment!

Re: A Replacement Skillet

You will not be able to find a porcelin clad stainless skillet. So here is how I cook on stainless steel skillets for eggs:

First, I heat the pan on high (dry) for about a minute to heat it up fast. Then I turn it to a bit less than medium heat (5 on my dial). Then I put a pat of ghee, or butter or expeller pressed coconut oil in the skillet. As soon as it starts melting, I crack my egg and put it in the pan. I don't touch it, for about a minute (it is slower, but it doesn't stick as much). Then I gently loosen the edges and it 'slides' as free as if it was on non stick. I flip, cook a bit more and then it just 'slides' out of the pan.

Use the same technique for scrambled or an omelet. Just have your eggs 'beaten' in a cup on the side, ready to go when that grease is melted.

[Henry's_Mamma]

Heather ... thanks! I'll be SLOWLY replacing my bake ware over the next few whatever (months, years???). I have tons and tons of non-stick cake pans, loaf pans, bundt pans, etc. that I've accumulated b/c I bake a lot.

I usually line my brownie type pans with foil, but now I'm thinking that that probably isn't such a good idea either since the foil is aluminum??? ... Guess I'll have to try lining them with parchment instead. That would also work in the loaf pans, but I can foresee a problem with the bundt pan :LOL.

Thanks again for all the help. I think I know what I'm going to ask for for my b-day and xmas this year ...

[tboroson]

I've found that even cheap aluminum is often coated with something to keep it from reacting. Of course, that brings in to question, what is the coating?? But, if it's just the aluminum that scares you, you can test it to see if it's reactive. Put the aluminum item in a non-reactive pan (plastic, stainless steel, glass) with a teaspoon of salt and hot water. Throw in a piece of tarnished silver. If the tarnish comes off, and it'll happen quickly and very well, it's reactive. If not, well, it's non-reactive. If you want to prove it to yourself, do it with a piece of aluminum foil instead of the pan.

[wasatchmom]

i was at costco yesterday and saw their huge silicon bakeware offerings right now. a set with muffin, loaf pans...i can't even remember everything in the set. then they also had a set of silicon oven mitts and basting brushes. unfortunately i can't find these on the website, but i did see them in the warehouse.

i totally sympathize with those having separation anxiety with their rice cookers. dh is filipino and brought few things to our kitchen when we got married. his rice cooker was one of them! sigh... gotta try it in a pan.

thanks for all the info heather!

[guerrillamama]

fyi -

smartbargains.com has a silicone mat
silicone
do you guys think is this a good deal?

and stainless sets
stainless 1
stainless 2
way over my budget but might work for some of you

[wasatchmom]

two questions:

i thought that if you scoured a stainless steel pot it would start to leach. is that wrong?

what about aluminum encapsulated by stainless steel? that is what my tea kettle is.

[naturalmother]

* There are no 'glass' frying pans to my knowledge and cooking an egg would royally suck, on glass...(can't take high direct heat and would not be able to 'distribute' it)

I use glass cookware for the stove top. I use corning visions (not available anymore). They ROCK! And, the eggs I cook in the glass skillet turn out just the way I like them - cooked on the outside and around (no clear egg white) and soft on the inside!

First, I heat the pan on high (dry) for about a minute to heat it up fast. Then I turn it to a bit less than medium heat (5 on my dial). Then I put a pat of ghee, or butter or expeller pressed coconut oil in the skillet. As soon as it starts melting, I crack my egg and put it in the pan. I don't touch it, for about a minute (it is slower, but it doesn't stick as much). Then I gently loosen the edges and it 'slides' as free as if it was on non stick. I flip, cook a bit more and then it just 'slides' out of the pan.

I use the same technique. It's perfect!

[xenabyte]

Originally Posted by wasatchmom

two questions:

i thought that if you scoured a stainless steel pot it would start to leach. is that wrong?

what about aluminum encapsulated by stainless steel? that is what my tea kettle is.

Mmm, not sure where you heard that stainless steel leaches, it's non reactive (but if you have a link to a site, please share as I'd like to read it. I've never heard of stainless leaching, as it's chemical nature would usually not allow such a thing. Now, if you were to electromagnetically charge acidic water in the pan and try to perform a 'plating' technique maybe.... ). But if you scrub cast iron (and remove the seasoning) it will leach more iron and rust. Same with aluminum pans, they leach more...and any 'coated' pans will leach if scrubbed and the coating (poymer based) layers are scratched.

If stainless steel is the part that touches your food, you are safe. Almost all high end pans have an 'aluminum' core on the bottom, clad by stainless steel to help with heat distribution. Steel clad copper is even higher end, and costs ALOT, but has superior heat distribution and 'control' (fast temp change when taken off heat...great for making certain sauces.)

Natural Mother: OHHHH you have one of the glass corningware cook skillets!! Those are RARE! I used to have a glass dutch oven I LOVED as I could do bread batter in it, but it got broke on a move

I'm glad the glass skillet works! It must have a different composition than normal glass. I'd read it was 'inferior' to most metal skillets, but hey, using one is the 'real' proof! Plus, it's 100% non reactive and that's so cool. I wonder why they stopped making them???

[naturalmother]

xenabyte - I bought my pots off ebay - they were brand new in a never-been-opened box. My mom used to have the dutch oven pot when I was a kid, and I was always fascinated by it! Unfortunately my dad broke it through carelessness. :

I think they stopped making them because they weren't that popular. People probably found them a hassle and the fact that they are not non-stick is inconvinient to most. Such a shame. They are beautiful pots to work with once you've gotten over the initial adjustment. I can't imagine using anything else.

[wasatchmom]

Originally Posted by xenabyte

Mmm, not sure where you heard that stainless steel leaches, it's non reactive (but if you have a link to a site, please share as I'd like to read it. I've never heard of stainless leaching, as it's chemical nature would usually not allow such a thing. Now, if you were to electromagnetically charge acidic water in the pan and try to perform a 'plating' technique maybe.... ). But if you scrub cast iron (and remove the seasoning) it will leach more iron and rust. Same with aluminum pans, they leach more...and any 'coated' pans will leach if scrubbed and the coating (poymer based) layers are scratched.

okay, here is where i read it. its in Marilu Henner's "Healthy Life Kitchen". Here is what she says:

"So what should you use? Well, unfortunately, not stainless steel; it might also be dangerous. Once it is scoured, tiny chromium and nickel particles, both bery toxic, may be released from the stainless steel and leach into the food."

i'm interested to hear your take on it.

[bdavis337]

So here's my first post on the nutrition board!

When DH and I got married, we recieved a wonderful stainless cookware set. I use cast iron for frying eggs, meat, and stovetop casseroles without tomato/acidic foods. But I was "stuck" on my teflon lasagna baking pan for oven dishes. UNTIL - my grandmother gave me her glass pie plates! Now I have FIVE glass baking dishes that are perfect for baking up 4 big chicken breasts. If I have a large oven recipe, I just split it between several pie plates.

My point is this - if you have a Goodwill store, thrift store of any sort, etc., you can find glass pie plates there for a few dollars each. Clean them up and VOILA. Instant cheap cookware! SO much less $$ than buying new at the kitchen store, and you're buying used so you're not contributing to the retail stream.

[wasatchmom]

bump.

xenabyte...any comments on that info about scoured stainless steel?

[mammastar2]

We used to have the corning 'visionware' (glass) too - it broke over time, though. I did find things burned way too easily, however.

I'm interested to learn silicon is ok - it always seemed suspicious to me, but maybe I'll give it a try. We've been using cast iron for frying, stainless steel and casserole-style dishes for baking.

I had always heard aluminum was to be avoided bc of links to Alzheimers - does anyone know anything about that?

[xenabyte]

Originally Posted by wasatchmom

bump.

xenabyte...any comments on that info about scoured stainless steel?

Hey, sorry, I was doing some more research and trying to find out about this...

I tried to get on the Marilu Henner site, but they want you to pay for using the boards!! (I wonder, do they sell a pot and pan set they recommend?)

From what I can tell from reading up on metallurigal testing that has been done on various alloys that contain nickel, 'stainless steel,' included, while stainless steel does contain nickel in the alloy, it only leaches a very very minute amount of nickel ions if exposed to specific conditions. You can get more nickel from holding a gun or wearing certain jewelry. If you happen to be a 'nickel sensitive' individual then this might be an issue.

High dose exposure to nickel can be carcinogenic, but usually it's individuals working in a plant where they are breathing in nickel 'dust' from metallurgical processing.

It really is 'close' to 100% non reactive (as non reactive as any metal can be) since given the right acidic/base content and any minute electrical currents (like with an acid solution in any metal container) you will get /some/ ions forming and therefore interacting with your foods.

I didn't see anything specificaly about 'scouring' them being a big issue, except that it makes little valleys that food/bacteria could get stuck in and if you don't wash the pan well, then you might risk getting sick from the bacteria. But since you are cooking on the pan, it's usually not an issue.

This one site did mention that older pans are more prone to this type of issue, and with newer pans, not so much. Maybe they have changed the composition of the alloy used in making stainless steel.

Chemists use glass (beakers, test tubes, etc) because it is truely the only 100% non reactive substance no matter how acidic or base the contents are. So that is the 100% absolute sure way that nothing foreign is interacting with your foods, ferments, etc.

Next best, would be porcelin coatings (though some of the cheaper brands do chip horribly and then it's no good for being non reactive)

Next is stainless steel, as it's so close to '100%' still, that it is good for most situations (treated gently, cleaned well, but don't scrub with metal scrubber sponges or washed in dishwasher with harsh soaps that might leave 'scour' marks)

Stoneware and silicon would be next for baking type stuffs...

And then I would say anodized aluminum (as it's changed to lessen the interaction of the aluminun with your foods).

Non stick is so far down my list, as to say I would just plain rather not use it.


Also, from what I read, pure elemental nickel in itself has different properties than an alloy made with nickel and therefore affects the body differently. For example, a pot made with up to 10% nickel will release such a miniscule amount of nickel/alloy into water as to be almost undectable, however a gun made with only 1% nickel, can 'leach' over 25% dectecable levels. (This might be an issue for a sweaty palmed police officer holding a gun alot, but not for most people cooking and eating foods prepared in a stainless steel pot). If you have 'nickel' sensitivities then it might be more of a factor also.

They way stainless steel is processed, the metal forms stronger 'base pairs' and it's harder for water to 'leach' away ions. Also, if you cook with a certain item, say a skillet, you can eventually form a nice 'seasoning' like with cast iron, that will keep the food stuffs away from the base metal and prevent interactions.

I would not steep an acidic fluid for long periods of time (like making tea) in a stainless steel pot (or any metal pot, for that matter). I would use glass or porcelin lined vessels.

So in a nut shell, I am not going to toss my stainless steel. I have a wide variety of pots and pans and baking utensils. I will use the stainless where appropriate (like baking and skillet quick cook use) and my stone and cast iron and glass for other stuff.

I totally agree with the above poster about using glass pie plates. I have my moms and 4 of my own. They are great for all purpose baking and even eating off of, when you have a 'soupy' sauce or topping (ie, smothered burritos).

Here is my caveot, if you know someone with allergies or sensitivities, or even cancer, they might be better served to try to convert to glass, stone, and porcelin lined cooking vessels. Do a heavy metal detox protocol, and maybe it would make a difference. It's like some people can eat peanut butter and it's deathly bad for some. I would not suggest that everyone throw out their stainless steel pots in general.

I hope this helps somewhat. I did a ton of hard core technical spec reading and my eyes are blurry now, but that's what I could gather on it from a few technical and not so technical sites!

/hug

[Saramomofmany]

Thank you so much Heather/xenabyte

Heather, I just wanted to express my gratitude for you doing all this research and posting it here for us mamas. Wow, that must have taken a lot of time, and I know that I really appreciate it(and it was written that I could even understand it)

[wasatchmom]

wow, let me thank you a million times too! i appreciate all your work. you are awesome!

Originally Posted by xenabyte

I tried to get on the Marilu Henner site, but they want you to pay for using the boards!! (I wonder, do they sell a pot and pan set they recommend?)

this is what the book says: "I recommend that you eventually invest in one of the other more durable and safer options, such as porcelain enamel, cast iron, Corningware, glass, or stoneware. The good news is that glass, cast iron, and porcelain enamel coated cast iron are still considered acceptable." No, Marilu doesn't sell pots or pans that i'm aware of. i can't believe they are charging to use their message boards now!

i am relieved to be reassured by all your research. thanks again.