So am I the only libertarian?

[PrincessPerky]

I posted in a different thread that all public school should be dropped or at least made voluntary and possibly only go up to reading and tax instruction. I was wondering how others thought. I have noticed that many posters here don't mind schooling so much as their local school. I personally feel the trouble is a bit more widespread.

I found a few quotes and websites on my side of the coin. I was wondering what other alternative schoolers thought.

"School reform is not enough. The notion of schooling itself must be challenged."
- John Taylor Gatto,
The Underground History of American Education

I am btw not an unschooler, I do like to teach, but I only teach what is enjoyed. Wouldn't be fun otherwise.

[hazeldust]

well i dont know what the definition of unschooling is but i understand it to be child led learning whether that be the child guidiung herself, or following a curriculum that he enjoys, basically avoiding putting the child in a learning position they do not enjoy. i have a friend whose daughter enjoys the structure of a curriculum, she enjoys worksheets and such so i still consider her unschooled. anyways i agree with you about the problem being more widespread. the child is not viewed as an individual and her personal needs are rarely taken into consideration. my son is 51/2 so i am at this point where i need some direction, ifeel like i need to figure out what i want to do for him. we have a couple of montessori schools here but even that is structured and though it is waaaaaay better than public education, (or seems that way to me at least) i still do not know if it the right chioce for us.
i was wondering what you mean by libertarian? i feel like i kind of know what you mean but i like to make sure.

[PrincessPerky]

I am afraid I should have put more thought into the title, a libertarian is a political party that is against most government interference. I used it in the sense that I feel the government should butt out of schooling. I should have put it a different way.

OT on the schooling:
I have read up on unschooling, because I find manditory schooling a bad idea. The definition sounds fine, but I feel from my reading that an unschooler doesn't aprrove of limits in general, and doesn't approve of 'school work', or testing of any sort. OR paretn directed learning. I find my DS loves tests and loves schoolwork,and we like limits, hopefully I will do a good job and those limits will one day be his own. It worked for hitting (mostly .) I assume it will work for other things too. I often suggest something to him to see if he wants to learn it, but I do listen if he doesn't (except where silverware is concerned .)
I also feel from my reading that unschooling and AP parenting go hand in hand, truthfully the definition of AP parenting sounds nice too, but ... lets just say both kids are sleeping soundly in their own beds right now. Parenting, to me, is not all about them, it is about all of us living together, and I live much happer when I get to enjoy my DH ...fully...nightly. (ok most nights, DD had this cold last week, .. boy was it a looong week!)

[Openskyheart]

I'm not a libertarian. I'm a Green , but I still think the school system is broken, and getting more and more broken every year. I live in California - the land of constant educational reforms - and here we are, still broken. I'm on an e-mail list for California public school teachers and parents who discuss their opposition to testing mania, NCLB, etc. The state superintendent of schools used to post there too, trying to convince the posters that what was actually happening to them, and the kids they worked with wasn't actually happening. I, and many others told him real stories about real children who were being adversely effected by the state testing mania. We told him real stories about what "high stakes" was doing the lives of these children. We also asked him where *his* school age children went to school. Guess where? An expensive private school in the bay area! And he is the top dog in California, in total denial about what is really happening in the schools he's charged with overseeing.

He seemed like a genuinely nice guy, too. But when asked why he didn't send his own children to these "great" California public schools (and dontcha think a bazillionaire like he would live in a good district?), and when faced with real stories time and time again which he couldn't refute with platitudes about "reaching all children" and "improving schools" blah blah blah, he stopped posting.

When I was still working, I worked as a contract service provider in a public school classroom for autistic children as a speech language pathologist. The teacher was the best teacher I have ever seen, or known anywhere. She performed miracles with these kids day after day. The parents *loved* her. Their kids were talking, reading, laughing, interacting! Parents bought gifts for the classroom. They were beside themselves with joy! The administration (you already know what I'm about to say, right?) did everything they could to make her miserable. Another therapist who worked in the classroom - the OT - was useless, and ineffectual. I've worked with dozens of OTs through the years, and I have never seen someone so incompetent. Guess who the administration loved? The OT. And this was at one of the "top" schools in the district. It made me sick.

These are anecdotes, I know. I have hundreds of them. After going to public schools my whole childhood, working in them (never paid by them, though. Always paid privately, and contracted to work in them) or going to meetings in them, and having my son in one for 6 weeks before I literally walked into his classroom, picked him up, and walked out... I have no use for traditional public schools, and think they are far more whacked out and damaged than people know. Even more than very involved parents know.

Laura

[CAmomto1]

Neither DH nor I are libertarian, but we are both former public school teachers and we both see merits to making public education elective rather than compulsory. The whole system needs an overhaul; the fact that it is compulsory is but one problem.

[TiredX2]

I posted in a different thread that all public school should be dropped or at least made voluntary and possibly only go up to reading and tax instruction.

I'm confused what you mean by this.

Should there be free public schools? What should they cover? (In your opinion)

[applejuice]

Hi, there!

I have been registered Libertarian since 1976, and these are my core beliefs. I have homebirthed my children, and homeschooled the older three alittle, and my youngest was homeschooled for the most part. I truly believe that most people are good and this should work to benefit them.

Instead, we have a school system that steals $, wastes $, demands more $, whereas it has been seen again and again in private schools and homeschooling that $ is not the problem.

I am looking for collaboration of this study, but one view of homeschooling over the past thirty years shows that it has closed the gap that exists between white and black students. I am lookng for what exactly and how the study was done.

[TiredX2]

Instead, we have a school system that steals $, wastes $, demands more $, whereas it has been seen again and again in private schools and homeschooling that $ is not the problem.

Unfortunately, many of the "real" problems are not able to be addressed within the school system so the only way they hope to improve is through increased spending (and, of course, all this damn testing adds quite a bit to the bill).

[AJP]

I definitely have libertarian leanings (although politically speaking I have some problems with the Libertarian party). When it comes to schooling, I absolutely think it should be totally voluntary. No compulsory schooling. As for the current school system, it is "broken" in many ways, but unfortunately, I think that ultimately it's actually doing the job it was designed to do, all too well. That job is to turn out compliant workers who need to be told what to do, who need external motivation and validation, who have been programmed to not think for themselves. Some private schools aren't much better, IMO. They have the same goals as public schools. Realization of human potential is not part of the equation.

[Linda KS]

Originally Posted by PrincessPerky

I posted in a different thread that all public school should be dropped or at least made voluntary and possibly only go up to reading and tax instruction. I was wondering how others thought. I have noticed that many posters here don't mind schooling so much as their local school. I personally feel the trouble is a bit more widespread.

I'm not a total Libertarian, but I lean that way. I totally agree that school should be voluntary. I think schools should truly be public and that everyone should be able to use them (or not) as they see fit -- like the public library or a public golf course. I don't think they should be run like jails, with people doing time.

I think that if the feds want to do something about education, they should publish a suggested scope and sequence for each grade and leave it at that. How hard would that be? Why haven't they ever done that? Why does the Department of Education do? I don't think they should test or in anyway attempt to enforce the scope and sequence. (I think it is beyond absurd that we are moving towards national testing but dont' have national standards).

I'm for charter schools and school vouchers and anything else that lets parents have more choice about how their kids are educated. Different things work better for different kids and the more choices people have, the better.

[UnschoolnMa]

I lean Libertarian I think. I definately think schooling should be voluntary! (I know... big suprise right? lol) I dislike how many (most, in my experience) schools work. That's actually pretty funny because my career has been in working with (teaching I suppose) kids. I am nothing if not complicated .... sigh. Anyway, I pretty much think the whole system is flunking (lol) and all the testing blows.

[SagMom]

Libertarian leanings here too. I suppose if I HAD to pick a party, it would be that one. (But I'm not entirely against taxes--I just think they should be handled on the local level and cover a very minimal number of things.)

I think ps should be done away with. I'd like to see resource centers or community centers with buffet-style choices for ALL people (children and adults) to use or not use as they please.

[sunnmama]

Originally Posted by Linda KS

I think schools should truly be public and that everyone should be able to use them (or not) as they see fit -- like the public library or a public golf course. I don't think they should be run like jails, with people doing time.

I like this idea
I think schooling should be voluntary, but I do think they are necessary (at this point in time). If there were no schools, I would worry about the children of those who can not teach their kids really important skills because they, themselves, do not have those skills (reading, consumer math, speaking English). And, of course, those families are typically in the lowest income bracket, so the least likely to be able to afford alternative education.

eta: I guess it's obvious, then, that I am a bleeding-heart, liberal democrat :LOL

[splendid]

By nature I am an independent. Somehow I just cannot stick to a certain party.

OT: If anyone has the time can they suggest a good libertarian website/book that discusses libertarian philosophies.

[oldcrunchymom]

I've been a registered Libertarian for over ten years and a card-carrying member of the party when I can afford it (not right now, though).

I do not think public school should be voluntary, but rather done away with completely. The choice to school and the method of schooling should be a private matter. If someone, or a group of people, wanted to set up a school free to all, that would be fine, but attendance should not be mandatory and they should not be taking money out of other people's pockets to fund it.

My children. My responsibility. NOT the government's.

[oldcrunchymom]

Originally Posted by splendid

By nature I am an independent. Somehow I just cannot stick to a certain party.

OT: If anyone has the time can they suggest a good libertarian website/book that discusses libertarian philosophies.

Here are a few websites explaining libertarian principles:

http://www.lp.org/issues/platform/sop.html
http://www.self-gov.org/
http://www.lpty.org/lp-overview.html
http://media.supereva.it/super.freew.../haylock.htm?p

[Wilhemina]

Originally Posted by Joan

I think ps should be done away with. I'd like to see resource centers or community centers with buffet-style choices for ALL people (children and adults) to use or not use as they please.

Wouldn't that be great! I love this idea. One of the reason I look forward to the summers is because dd has her pick of cool "camps." Short courses (1-5 days) on a wealth of interesting topics. No tests, just great activities exploring a subject she has chosen with other kids also interested (ideally anyway - I guess some are put there without a say by parents looking for babysitting).

I would love to see this kind of a system year round.

[PrincessPerky]

Originally Posted by TiredX2

I'm confused what you mean by this.

Should there be free public schools? What should they cover? (In your opinion)

I am rather willing to use my LOCAL tax money to support free reading instruction and tax assistance. I am not willing to have any of my money used to force children into institutions. They should cover ONLY what a person volunters to learn.

I would also support local money to making science centers and such, cheaper, with possible classes for people interested. I know there already is local tax money going in, but could you imagine what the science center could do with 8,000 times the number of kids in PS right now? I bet a whole lot.

BUT I would so stress, only VOLUNTARY. And only locally, that way if you don't like it you can move. On a federal level, it doesnt give them permission in the constitution for a very good reason.

I think the buffet style thing is great, and I do support some free education, especially in ready, it opens up whole new worlds when children like to read. One reason I went to highschool is that my mother felt I needed to play with 'lab' type stuff, chemicals and such. I personally had no intrest in it, but I am glad my DH had the chance, I wish there were an easy and obvious way for my DS when he is old enough (right now baking soda and vinagar are still impressive enough .) Easy without having to send him to PS.

[splendid]

Originally Posted by lckrause

Here are a few websites explaining libertarian principles:

http://www.lp.org/issues/platform/sop.html
http://www.self-gov.org/
http://www.lpty.org/lp-overview.html
http://media.supereva.it/super.freew.../haylock.htm?p

Thanks lckrause I will be sure to check those links out.

[LeftField]

This is a genuine question. What would happen to children whose parents don't read to them, talk to them in a meaningful way, model learning and attempt to provide enrichment? I'm not a lover of the institution of "school", but I worry about those kids.