"Fear of God is the first step to wisdom" - Discuss! - Page 3

[mamaduck]

"Christaneese."
Church lingo can be majorly off-putting. Many of us are completely unaware of when we are doing it.
Though, again, if I were paying for a billboard I'd try to say what I meant! I can't help wondering if the maker of the billboard intended to strike the wrong kind of fear in the hearts of people.

[mamaduck]

my personal experience of the divine is that of unconditional love. i've had a few very powerfull experiences of feeling the divine within the core of my being. it is indeed awesome.

I am a Christian, and this is also my experience of the divine. I think, Steph, that it is the same Divine. At least, that is what I believe.

I am a Christian, and I worship a gentle, strong, all wise, compassionate, protective, loving God.

I can't understand why some here (ahem, Yammer) point their finger at me and say "No you don't. If you are a Christian then you are worshiping an abusive and dysfunctional god. And if you say otherwise about him then you are lying to yourself."

What the heck? That isn't fair! Do you not believe my sincerity when I tell you my perceptions of the divine? Am I not "allowed" to redefine popular perceptions of Christianity according to my heart, mind, my interpretations of scripture, and spiritual inspiration?

[mamaduck]

(i.e., the first commandment, i am the lord thy god. thou shall have no false gods before me. this strikes me as very egocentric and insecure. if he is the supreme being, then why can't accept whatever guise people choose to worship in?

My 2 cents. Again. Sorry, I know I'm posting too much. BUT -- this isn't about worshipping God by another name (IMO.) It is about worshipping *false* gods. I.e. -- putting your faith in empty things that will let you down, mislead you, hurt you in the end.

An analogy -- I am walking through a crowded mall with my two children and I say "I am your mother. Don't wander off with any strangers."

Is it because I am egocentric and insecure?

[Deirdre]

Kind of T

I have been thinking of doing a picture book of the signs I see outside of places of worship as I travel. I have read some of the most beautiful things and some of the most disturbing things ever written there.....



We are not sinners nor are we born in sin. We are perfectly loved children of God. We are loved without condition. There is nothing to fear.

[merpk]

Well, NM, it may not be a Christian sentiment, but it is pretty Jewish in outlook.

Hey, Dierdre ... I know you've got a "nik" at the end of your senior title ... are you really? You're Jewish! Oh, right, and Michael Lerner's your rebbe ...

Seriously, the Bible also says we're made in the image of G-d. Hardly to be swaddled in sin when you're wrapped in the divine ...

- Amy

[hydrangea]

Originally posted by Nursing Mother
If one really wishes to "understand God" or at least strive to, one must first read the whole Bible including OT and NT.

I am just astonished that this has gotten by here. What is this saying about Jews?

[luvinlivin]

Originally posted by Nursing Mother


...then you have no true understanding of God.

This issue has come up now twice in this thread. I agree that hydrangea's question deserves an answer. steph was called out for lacking a 'true understanding of God' and now the Jews are presumably excluded from a true understanding because their sacred texts do not include the New Testament.

I could use some enlightenment on this issue as the corner for the true understanding of God appears very small. I'm sure I could hear all about how the path to righteousness is narrow right about now....

[JessicaS]

livinlovin, I was referring to those not of Christian faith when I said it wasn't popular with many.

i keep thinking about god in the bible and have come to see him as the ultimate abusive/disfunctional father figure

This is the comment NM responded to about "true understanding" frankly I agree with her. If that was all God was about well I am not certain I would be Christian either.....though it does sound a lot like me playing Black and White...

[merpk]

hydrangea, if I may be so khutzpah-dik, I believe NM is saying that to understand G-d as NM understands G-d, one must read both the Torah and the NT.

Of course, that says about the Jews what it appears to.

We can acknowledge that many "fundies" {NM ... }hope that Jews would read the NT and come to have a Christian understanding of G-d. And that is fact, and can be accepted here within the range of our discussions without getting personally po'd at any particular member of MDC.

Or so I feel, anyway ...

As long as the issue is aired and we're clear about it ...



- Amy

ps - written with great respect particularly for NM and for all she teaches me here about motherhood and everything else ...

[dingogirl]

"But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love." (1 John 4:18)

Enough said?

[Super Pickle]

Perfect verse, dingogirl. Thank you so much.

[luvinlivin]

:

Yes, dingogirl (and others), I do believe that most of us recognize these verses exist in the Bible. Mostly written in the NT by the apostles. John is a major contributer to the 'love' theme in the NT,as your verse contributions demonstrate.

I recognize these verses exist in the Bible. But, what do you all do with the equal time contradictory verses occupy in this same holy book? Do you ignore these verses? Try to work it out in your head..like why doesn't God love 'wicked' people enough to curb himself from murdering them?

I quoted from Jesus because this is one example, among many, where Jesus (allegedly) speaks directly to the question of heaven and how to get there! Why does he tell this person to keep the commandments, be perfect and then heavenly residence is assured? If one simply needs to 'believe' as John tries to say, well, Jesus didn't say that!

NM, the OT and NT are fundamental to an understanding of the Chrisitian movement. My questions and issues are only based on these two areas. Really knowing what is written in the Bible raises more contradictions than solves them. And I know what I was 'taught' about how to reconcile the contradictions (i.e. Jesus 'fulfilled the law, he didn't destroy it', 'Jesus was both man and God and without sin - when he destroyed life like the fig tree, he wasn't sinning, etc., etc.)

[merpk]

NM, I have only respect for you. You should know that, I hope ... and said what I said because I don't take offense at your wanting to ... expand my horizons. I think another poster was taking offense. And it's just too complicated for back & forthing, right?

... by NM
... About the sin thing....If I read the Torah right there is much talk on sin and disfellowship from God because of it. Do you not believe in sin as a Jew? Just curious, really....and how you come to that conclusion if my assumption is right.

Yes, there is. Depends on how you look at it.

What are mitzvot (good deeds)? Things that bring me close to G-d and enhance my relationship with G-d.

What are aveirot ("sins")? Things that detract from my relationship with G-d, and that are not helpful in my relationship with G-d.

That's how I see it. I see the word "sin" as being one that implies direct evil, or some such thing, and that is not how I unerstand it.

So that fits with fear/awe, too, because I'm not "afraid" of "sin" in that something bad may happen to punish me, but I'm concerned about enhancing my relationship with the divine, and am fearful of doing anything to detract from it.

Standing on the edge of the canyon ... right there with you, NM ...

- Amy

[mamaduck]

Amy -- I love your definitions of good deeds and sins. A more secular way to say it would be that "sins" are acts that are not in our own best interests, or in the best interests of others. And by "sinning," we actively punish ourselves. Sinfullness=living unhealthfully.

Luvin -- You are asking really tough questions, and I really don't have it all sorted out. Despite the fact that I am a Christian, I do not have the same view of the Bible that NM does. Though, pretty close I guess. Put it this way: I'm struggling! Whatever else I think, I respect the Bible and I believe there is an infinate number of lessons to be learned from it.

You've brought up a number of things Jesus said that you feel contradict other parts of the Bible, and they have something in common. Jesus was illustrating that it takes more than just "following the rules" to be perfect. That being sinless is a heart condition. You can follow all the rules, and still act in ways that are not loving your neighbor -- therefore you are still imperfect. You can follow all the rules, but not commit your heart to loving Him above and beyond your earthly posessions and pursuits. Thus you are sitll imperfect. In order to get into Heaven -- we must be perfect.

I believe that he is demonstrating to us exactly WHY we need him. Because we can't be perfect without a miracle. Thus the cross, etc. and NM covered that already.

[luvinlivin]

Originally posted by abimommy
"For God so loved the earth that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved." John 3:16-17

While this may be not a popular quote with many it has a large role in Christianity.

AND

"livinlovin, I was referring to those not of Christian faith when I said it wasn't popular with many."


That was exactly my point, Abimommy!! This is probably THE most popular verse out in non-Xian culture! Like I mentioned, once you have arguably, the most popular professional wrestler (Stone Cold Steve Austin) doing a take-off of this verse (he wears a shirt and people hold signs reading 'Austin 3:16) and you have a rainbow-haired man wearing a John 3:16 shirt at most televised sporting events throughout the 80's (how *did* he get the best seat in the house?) then...

the verse has permeated popular, non-Xian culture for sure!

I suspect that most Christians are glad this verse is so popular among non-Christians.

HTH

[Zina]

I have read the OT and the NT (as translated directly from the original languages, not the King James Bible), and I agree with Steph. The God of the Bible, OT and NT, is a prototype for an abusive father. Is someone going to tell me that I clearly do not have an understanding of God? I could just as easily say that those who follow the Bible do not have a true understanding of God, because the Bible is a document created to define a God that serves the purposes of men interested in maintaining power. That is not what many of you find in the Bible, that is what I find there--we can volley verses back and forth, of course, but still I will choose the verses that strike me as the real meaning of the Bible and Christians will choose verses that define the real meaning of the Bible to them, and Jews will choose verses that define the God of the Torah to them. That meaning, of course, is individual--certainly all Christians don't believe the same things and all Jews don't believe the same things. But it strikes me as very much in the Christian tradition to say, "Oh no, you just don't understand!" rather than, "That's not my understanding of it."

Back to the fear=awe thing. Okay, even if I accept the awe translation I still don't like the approach. Yes, my children need guidance, and part of loving them and keeping them safe is making sure they (and I) know that ultimately I am in charge. But is it healthy to expect awe and reverance from them? I expect respect from them--which I gain in large part by showing them respect. And they (usually) adore me as I adore them. But I think expecting awe is authoritarian, and that leads back to the God as Ezzo thing. If you accept God as an authoritarian father figure, and you find that a loving figure, fine. That is not my experience of the divine. Of course if you believe the Bible, my experience or interpretation is moot. My point is, I don't think it makes such a big difference whether you use awe or fear--the God of the Bible's actions speak for themselves.

And I just have to add, that once God drowned everyone but for Noah and his passengers (then apologized and swore never to do it again--in classic abuser style) he lost any hope of gaining my faith or alleigance. Certainly sending his own son to die a painful death on a cross was not going to win me back.

[JessicaS]

Stone Cold Steve Austin) doing a take-off of this verse (he wears a shirt and people hold signs reading 'Austin 3:16)

bleh....

has anyone here played Black and White?? It is an excellent game where you are "god" of your world. Now honestly anytime my villagers stared giving me crap "you are not so impressive...your creature isn't so big blah blah blah" I had my creature eat them. NOT NICE!!

It really gives you an interesting outlook.

[dingogirl]

Hi luvinlivin, why the roll eyes? I was just trying to point out that even the Bible says that we shouldn't fear God.

Quote:

I recognize these verses exist in the Bible. But, what do you all do with the equal time contradictory verses occupy in this same holy book? Do you ignore these verses? Try to work it out in your head..like why doesn't God love 'wicked' people enough to curb himself from murdering them?

I believe Jesus was an enlightened being who tried to show everyone that love is all that matters-not dogma. He tried to tell us that an eye for an eye, killing, hating etc are not the ways of God. Unfortunately, most of his words were probably altered to fit the churchs view of God. Just my opinion though.

[BelovedBird]

I am beloved birds Dh

I was perusing the board and I thought that I might have something to say. first the verse. "rashis chochma Yiras Hashem". The begining of wisdom is _____ of G-d.

the word is hebrew is Yirah. The root word is re'eh. translated as sight. Yirah is awarenes, therefore perhaps awe, therfore pehaps fear. "the begining of wisdom is the awareness of g-d". What does that verse mean? simply that if a person knows that G-d exists, and that he created the world, and that it has an order and a structure, and a purpose, then he can begin to be able to say something intelligent about the world, he can begin to have "wisdom".

An alternative explanation:

Fear of g-d is the begining of wisdom. A person can twist facts as much as he likes in order to fit any agenda he likes, he can use the bible, statistics, any thing at all, distort their original meaning and have it support anything at all. I cannot begin to tell you ho wmany weird and wacky ideas I have come across. Each idea was supported by facts that were twisted out of their original cintexts, and made to support the authors idea. "fear of G-d is the begining of wisdom", means that I am not allowed to play fast and loose with the facts, that there is someone who knows the truth, who knows when I am being less than 100 percent truthful with my contexts. We have all seen people who have made the facts subservient to their agenda. If a person fears G-d,and he knows that G-d wants him to be honest, he will (in theory) stay away from ideas that may not really be supported by the facts, no matter how much he wants the theory to succeed.

Peace

[steph]

not trying to stir the pot here (really!), but this caught my eye

"fear of G-d is the begining of wisdom", means that I am not allowed to play fast and loose with the facts, that there is someone who knows the truth, who knows when I am being less than 100 percent truthful with my contexts. We have all seen people who have made the facts subservient to their agenda. If a person fears G-d,and he knows that G-d wants him to be honest, he will (in theory) stay away from ideas that may not really be supported by the facts, no matter how much he wants the theory to succeed.

don't all of us know inside when we're not being 100% honest - either in thought, or word or deed? i don't see why we need to feel that god is looking over our shoulder. i think most of us instictively want to do what's right, and know within ourselves when we are and when we aren't. there are those who will not be honest, but i think they also know it in the moment, and do it conciously, with or without fear of god. jmho