I just took away DS toys in his bedroom. All of them.

[spatulagirl]

Did I just make a HUGE major mistake?

All of them because they were all lying on the floor and had been for a few days. He is 3.5 years old. I try to do a 15 minute clean up every day with him. His room gets pretty trashed every day. I work from home and he spends a lot of time playing in his room while I am in the office.

A few months ago I tired of cleaning the room turning into a big long fight so the rule was if it didn't get picked up by the end of the day it would go away in the closet. I have only had to enforce this rule twice and he lost quite a bit of toys but earned them back by keeping his room clean.

We are straightening up the house today and I asked him to start putting his toys away (they were ALL over the place, almost every toy he owns) while I made my bed and put the laundry away. The baby was napping downstairs and this was a good opportunity to do a quick cleaning.

Then the crying started. He cries a lot, screams a lot. Has a bad temper. It is so tiring and draining. I popped into his room and asked what was wrong. He said he was tired. Ok. Well let Mommy help you. We just need to put the toys away and then we can eat lunch and you can have quiet time.

Disclaimer: He tends to say he is tired even if he isn't. It is his word for when he is upset about something.

Anyway, he kept crying on his bed and said he didn't want to put the toys away. I said if he can't put them away then they have to go in the closet. He said fine.

So I picked up everything and they are now in my room. When I say everything, I mean everything. I left books and some stuffed animals and a couple of puzzles. That is it. And only because they were sitting in their proper spots on the bookshelf.

I am so tired of this being a major issue. I am tired of him screaming when we ask him to straighten up. We even help him every time and he spends the time screaming and crying.

He obviously has too many toys in there. DH has been saying this for awhile. But now I have a pile of toys in my bedroom all over the place and now I have to sort through them all and put them away in piles and now he has to earn them back. Is that too mean? Did I totally screw this up?

[wemoon]

I'm not sure if it is too mean or not. This is what I have found about kids and toys.

My kids have way too many toys. More toys than they can manage on their own. More toys they can play with. In a desperate moment, I did something similar as you did, I don't know if it was mean or not... but the fact remains that I did it.

I found that my kids are now capable of keeping their room clean AND they actually PLAY with their toys, not just dump them on the floor and think it is big fun. I've decided I'm not going to give them all the toys back, I'm going to rotate the toys. I think they just had way too many and it was way too overstimulating.

Maybe I'm mean but we are all much happier with less toys.

[sunnmama]

I agree that a smaller number of toys is more manageable (for parent and child) and more conducive to play. Sorting and rotating toys is a great idea, imo.

And, I know how it feels to be frustrated by a power struggle and make decisions you later questions .

That said, I feel it is wrong to take a 3 yo child's toys as punishment for not cleaning up when asked, for a bunch of reasons, not the least of which is because it is partly our (the parent's) fault for getting them more stuff than a small child can possibly manage. If you think the mess is overwhelming to you, imagine how overwhelming for a 3 yo.

It is possible to avoid the power struggle over toy clean up. And, since this is generally not a safety issue, imo it is not worth the power struggle. But, still, we get things cleaned up! If dc is opposed to cleaning at the moment, question why it must be done right then? Might dc be more cooperative *after lunch and a rest? If it gets done then, why fight now?

Maybe (probably) dc needs a more playful approach. Sing a funny clean up song, challenge him to a cleaning race, turn over an egg-timer and play "beat the clock". Invent cleaning characters. Be fun! I know....we don't always have the energy to be fun....so close the door on the mess until after *you* have had lunch and a rest!

I would give him back his toys, but not all of them . I would return a manageable amount.

[Satori]

: I did the same thing this weekend : Except dd wasn't here when I did it. The toys went bye bye 2 days ago and she hasn't even noticed! I got rid of every toy she hasn't touched in a month and put it in storage. I've spent 2 full days decluttering the entire house and in just an hour last night she created 2 hours of work for me. I need to declutter some more I think.

[maya44]

I think rotating toys is great. I think reducing the number of toys is great.

I think taking away all of his toys as punishment is not.

A 3 or 4 y.o. does not need to be that responsible for putting away all of his toys.


You can express disapointment in not helping to clean up. But I don't think you can expect him to be so mature that he always cleans up his toys.

[Mom4tot]

Originally Posted by wemoon

I'm not sure if it is too mean or not. This is what I have found about kids and toys.

My kids have way too many toys. More toys than they can manage on their own. More toys they can play with. In a desperate moment, I did something similar as you did, I don't know if it was mean or not... but the fact remains that I did it.

I found that my kids are now capable of keeping their room clean AND they actually PLAY with their toys, not just dump them on the floor and think it is big fun. I've decided I'm not going to give them all the toys back, I'm going to rotate the toys. I think they just had way too many and it was way too overstimulating.

Maybe I'm mean but we are all much happier with less toys.

Well said. I need to do this more often.

I have found Ben plays much more freely and imaginatively when the floor is clean and there are fewer toys available.

[Sahara]

spatulagirl,
I don't think you made a major mistake, I think you are working out your style of discipline, just like the rest of us. I agree with the general consensus that fewer toys work better, less overwhelming for the 3-4 year old and easier to keep track of.
I think if you have a limited number of toys, it might be reasonable to expect your son to be able to clean them up himself. All of them. Of course each child is different, and some may not be able to handle that demand just yet, but you know him best and are the best judge of whether or not he is mature enough physically and intellectually to handle the responsibility.
I also caught on to something else in your post. You mentioned that he often screams and crys, or complains that he is tired, and that you almost always help him clean up. Is he screaming to get you to help? Are you consistent about when you help and when you tell him you expect him to do it himself? I believe that at this age, many children are researching everything, nonstop, and he might be looking for what the limits are, which rules apply in the morning vs. the end of the day, while you are working vs. on a weekend etc. You say that you try to do a 15 minute cleanup each day, but that the toys had been on the floor for several days. Maybe a set time to do clean-up each day, or twice a day so it doesn't get too overwhelming, and set a timer and stick to it? We have found that setting a limit on how many activities can be out at one time works well. Of course you have to take time to monitor that stuff, which might be unrealistic while you are working. And I'm not flaming you for being inconsistent, if that's even the case, because I'm struggling with that same issue at the moment (see the desperate post I'm about to submit!) My son has been having severe emotional reactions to the lack of consistency in our lives right now, and we are at our wits end.
Take care,
Steph

[jlspalding]

My best friend has a dd the same age, and she did the same thing a few days ago. All the toys were on the back porch. She discovered something similar to what Wemoon is saying - her daughter began drawing alot more and doing more creative play.

That said, this weekend I spent a day at my friend's house -they were out of town and my heat doesn't work. She told me that I was free to bring toys from the porch so that my dd (2 years, 4 mos) could play with them.

I have always noticed that my friend's dd's toys are really in a mess. In any given bin you can find crayons, playdough (old and dried), baby bottles and baby doll toys, plastic food, miscellaneous peices of wood or foam puzzles, a marker or two, etc, etc. And ALL her toy bins are like this. Heck, as an adult, I wouldn't even know how to clean up. My point is that I think it's important for parents to keep toys organized (by activity and play). I think it makes it easier for kids to play with them, and easier to pick up. Anyway, if you are just throwing junk into boxes just to get them off the floor -what's the point?

I digress. I am obviously anal about this. But I have noticed that daycares and preschools and play areas for kids seem to follow this logic too.

Jessica

[wemoon]

Oh, I know what you mean Jessica. I seperate the toys into baskets so that all like toys are together, or if it was a set of this or that then that set stays together with no other toys together. I could not function in a house that was organized in the manner you described so there is no way I could expect my kids too!

[bamamom]

Good for you, momma! If there are too many toys, get rid of them! We did this a couple months ago, went through the toy box and got rid of everything she never plays with. Reduced the toys by 60% probably. And she plays great now!! Would I take her toys if she was three and refused to pick them all up? ABSOLUTELY!! By the way, I have seen several comments like a three year old can't pick up his toys by himself..........UMMM, sorry but that's just not true. We started training her to pick up her toys at 12 months, by helping her and making it fun. Now all we have to do is tell her what we're doing and get her started and she pretty much does it. Is it perfect? No way. But she does understand the concept. So no, I do not think sticking to your guns and giving him a consequence for his actions is wrong...Keep up the good work!!

[sunnmama]

Originally Posted by bamamom

By the way, I have seen several comments like a three year old can't pick up his toys by himself..........UMMM, sorry but that's just not true.

Of course they *can* pick them up. But is it reasonable to expect them to, on demand, at 3? That would depend on the child, the approach, the room, the number of toys.....
I think there are a lot of reasons a child that age would refuse, and not be able to express *why* they are refusing. Punishment is not necessary, imo. Of course, reducing the number of toys is helpful, but that would best be done in a non-punitive way (maybe when the child isn't home?--if the toys just look attractively arranged when the child gets back, she likely won't notice what is missing).

Taking away the toys (punitively) is not a horrible thing. I just "hear" it a lot (here and IRL and otherwise), and I think there is a better, gentler way to handle the problem.

[USAmma]

I didn't take Abi's toys away for punishment, but a couple weeks ago we had our flooring redone. We had to put all our possessions in the garage. After the flooring was finished I pulled in a few favorite toys but the majority of stuff stayed in the garage. She kept asking where a certain toy was, I told her it was in the garage and I didn't have time to get it right now. She just said oh and found something else to play with in the house. She's also rediscovering her puzzles and books which is great. Less for me to clean up. All I have in the house are stuffed animals, ponies and horseslittle people,and blocks. A few baby toys for Nitara, too, but not much. Today she's playing with the puppets (in stuffed animal bin) that she hasn't played with in weeks.

BTW I don't think a 3.5 yo is capable of cleaning up things very well. At least mine wasn't. She got distracted very easily unless I was standing over her saying, Please put that one away. Thank you. Now please put that one away . . . . She does better if I ask her to put 5 toys away. Then later I'll ask her to put 5 more away. Otherwise it just seems like too big of a job. I mean I feel that way about my kitchen sometimes! It's just too big and I don't know where to start so I come and get on-line instead. :

Darshani

[Shonahsmom]

Originally Posted by sunnmama

Taking away the toys (punitively) is not a horrible thing. I just "hear" it a lot (here and IRL and otherwise), and I think there is a better, gentler way to handle the problem.

I agree sunmama. I used to loose my patience and take away toys and engage in exhausting power struggles with my dd on this topic. After reading a few posts on this issue here on MDC I've really changed my tune. A few members here encouraged me to examine why it was important for me that dd's room be clean and why was it important for me for her to do it exactly when I asked (or demanded) it be done. When I really sat with that I could come up with no other answers other than me wanting to feel in control and to feel that I was the one "in charge". Once I realized that and really examined how sad my dd was when I would put up her toys, I seriously re-evaluated.

Together, she and I scaled back on her toys. We talked about other children not having toys and talked about her need to have more open space to play and she readily agreed to help go through her toys and pick what was going to stay and what was going to go.

Then I became dilligent about the "fun" ways to clean up that a PP mentioned. And I only go there when I know I have that level of energy. If I don't and her room is a mess, it stays a mess and I've reached a point where I can totally accept that. Really, its her room. I don't really need to go in there if I don't want to look at it. If its really driving me crazy and I want it cleaned RIGHT now, I clean it myself, because I realize that in that moment its my issue, not hers.

DD is now quite cooperative about clean up time and has even started taking the initiative to clean on her own when she has no space to play or cannot find a toy she's looking for. This approach is working really well for us and we've been relieved of the awful power struggles and hurt feelings.

[wemoon]

I agree with sunmama as well. I don't feel good that I took away toys in an upset rage, but that is how it happened. I definitely wouldn't plan to do that. I wouldn't think to myself... *if after I ask them to clean their room and they don't I'm going to get pissed and throw all the toys in a trash bag*.... no, I would never plan that. But I know everyone knows that sometimes these things happen and all I can do now is just appologize to my kids and try to do better next time.

But I'm ALL for the calm elimination of toys. It is much better to have a small amount of good quality toys.

[our veggie baby]

I dunno, I guess I am going to be an awful parent lol...but I think taking away toys is a perfectly acceptable punishment....
But I also believe the punishment should fit the "crime" so to speak.
I agree with some of the other posters, if you child has 23047230947 toys, and the mere act of taking them ALL out and spreading them everywhere is playtime in itself, it seems the child may be overwhelmed and overstimulated, and dare I even suggest, a bit--spoiled...not spoiled in the traditional way, but I mean, even me as an almost 28 year old starts taking things for granted when I have endless access to them or too much of them, know what I mean? I know it's an extreme example, but if I had a car to drive for every day of the week, there is no way I would appreciate the nice compact car we DO have that serves our purposes wonderfully!!

I agree with reducing the number of toys, rotating, and even with taking a certain toy or 2 away when a child is misbehaving. I feel that one of our goals as parents is to teach our child how the world works, and in the world, people get their privledges taken away when they misbehave....that is why I am NOT for spanking AT ALL...because who is allowed to spank you in the world?? (legally I mean)....
Now as I said, I am completely for the punishment fitting the "crime"---In terms of picking up the toys at a particular time etc, I would have probably done what another poster suggested, something like, okay, I realize you are "tired" so we don't have to pick them up now, but we will pick them up after lunch and a rest (or whatever)...if my child still refused, then the gentle warnings would start---"sweetie, I know you don't want to pick up your toys, but mommy will help you" kind of thing---if they STILL were refusing, it would get to, "sweetheart, mommy expects you to help pick up the toys you got out, if mommy has to pick all of them up, i will take them away".....then guide the child through play, songs, etc what the other poster mentioned---but if it were a battle of wills just to test me, and they adamantly refused to even help, yes, I would take them away.

I think a lot of times, just my personal opinion, parents greatly underestimate their children, how smart they are, how capable they are, and yes, even at times, how manipulative they can be to avoid doing something they don't want to do---it doesn't make your child any less of an angel, it just makes them human...and I believe a 3 or 4 year old is completely capable and should be expected to pick up a *reasonable* amount of toys, or at the very least, help mommy or daddy or whoever do it...
I am not the type who needs things perfect by a long stretch, but I mean, I feel it is my job to teach my child common courtesy, and it is common courtesy to me to put things back where you got them...of course you can be flexible, it doesn't have to be NOW THIS INSTANT kind of thing---I guess I feel if that pattern continues (of not doing it at all), I am going to have an 8 or 10 year old that is telling me they don't "feel" like it when I ask them to do anything, know what I mean? ...and while I validate that, yes, sometimes we don't feel like doing stuff and sometimes that's okay, yet sometimes we have to do stuff we don't "feel" like, and that is part of life...

Sorry to go on!

[TigerTail]

i'm kind of in the middle here... i am definately pro-'scale down'; most toys are now in bins in our new shed for rotation. (ultimately getting a new place to put 'stuff' is not the perfect solution, but we have a v small house & little storage room.) i'm not ready to send nearly everything to goodwill just yet (but i have been braver about sending a lot of stuff there , esp plastic noisy crap gifts that aren't even worth one good playtime without frustrating everyone.)

punishing small children for melting down in the midst of chaos adults would be intimidated by is not fair.

however, small children can help & clean if you have reasonable expectations, & it is doing them a disservice not to teach them to live in order & cleanliness. the montessori folks are right on this one, i think. it has nothing to do with me being a control freak 'in charge', & everything to do with modeling & teaching them skills to help them live happy & productive lives. letting them wallow in disorder is doing them no favors. (i have no quarrel with what you actually *did*, shonahsmom, it sounds like essentially what i am advocating , it's the philosophy behind it i'm skeptical of. i went that way with my stubborn now-18 yr old, & i feel bad to have not taught her to be more organized. easier to say 'it's her room' rather than battle the debris constantly; better to have seriously minimized all the piles of stuff. of course, we are both ADD to the max, which doesn't help. but i think we could have done better with less.)

back to topic, kate: get it outta your room! you deserve clutter-free space too.

good luck. no, i don't think you are a big meanie for doing it; children can understand being frustrated and losing it just fine. esp with apologies. i once nannied for a little boy whose dad *threw everything away*, literally. that, i thought, was traumatic.

suse

[beanma]

thanks for this thread. i'm there with an almost 4 year old and too many toys, too. i don't know. she plays with a lot of them (1 yr old sister, too), but they get all over the house and we're really trying hard to declutter, but dh and i are both packrats (we might _need_ it someday :LOL ). i'm in desperate need of "me" time and dd1 is desperate to have mommy and dd1 time and i'm finding myself very short and threatening ("if i have to put those up they're going where you can't reach them!"). ugh. not the mom i want to be. dd1 is a champeen wailer and screecher and it just pushes my buttons sometimes. she's usually a real sweetie, but the screeching "no! i won't" to my initial gentle request just sends me over the edge sometimes. i'm working on recognizing triggers in myself (need to get out of the house everyday, sunshine and fresh air, exercise would be great, omega 3s) and that helps, but i do need some coping strategies. this thread was one for me. i was about to lose it about all the play fabric and toys on the floor when i said to myself, "wait, i'll go see what there is in 'gentle discipline' and maybe i can not lose my cool over this, ". so, thanks! keep the ideas coming...

[jmom]

DD's "organizational style" is challenging...

I've really appreciated reading all the great thoughts and ideas! But what about this? DD is five and likes to help clean up, but everything kind of goes everywhere. Huge stuffed animas are jammed into little bins, blocks and balls and trucks and baby toys go everywhere. I haven't worried about it at all and thank her profusely when she takes it upon herself to tidy up the play room. I figure her organizational style will continue to evolve.

She seems to have more fun cleaning up DS's toys than tidying her own room.

As for why I expect her to tidy up... Her room is small and things get walked on or broken or somebody trips.

When she was younger, we tried to work on one mess at a time. I didn't worry about the active mess, it was the benign neglect mess that got the attention.

[Thmom]

I've found that my children can clean up much better (ages 2-9) with the toys being a small number, organized by type and limited to what is played with at anyone time....
like we have a bin of princess/knight dress up, a bin of resucers dress up, a bin of general dress up, a bin of dolls and doll accessories, a bin of kitchen stuff etc... they are allowed any two bins out at a time and they need to decide together what those two bins will be (the 9yr usually plays by himself) and they clean up those toys together and it's pretty easy for them to put like things back with other like things (we're not to picky about the dress up bins we just happen to have a ton of it) I've found that clean up is SOOOO much easier, very few fights about cleaning up now, and even when it's not all picked up there isn't so much that I'm tripping over toys and feeling frustrated at the mess, so I feel like I can let my kids play more and not have to be after them to clean up all the time.

[LoveBeads]

I agree with everything sunmama said. Everything.

I then wrote this whole long post and decided that since it is basically just saying exactly what she wrote, there is no need to post it.