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Question about Religious Reasons - Page 3

post #41 of 74
Quote:
Do some research on FGM, you will learn it is an obligation of no religion, and it is usually done in very unsanitary conditions
Thank you for that distinction. I have not done much research on FGM; I had assumed it was a religious practice.
post #42 of 74
A couple helpful (I believe) links for research into Female Genital Mutilation are:

http://www.mwlusa.org/pub_fgm.html

http://www.fgm.org/TheBasics.html

This type of mutilation has been around a very long time - mummies in Egypt have evidence of FGM. Not always in an unhygenic manner either. Over 30 countries in Africa and ME nations are known to have practiced/are practicing FGM.

I personally find it hideous and am glad that there is great work being done by the WHO, for example, to eliminate this mutilation!
post #43 of 74
I am truly sorry. I didn't mean to be pointing at anyone. I am honestly NOT, in any way, criticising ANYONE'S decision to circumcise for religious, or any other, reason.

There is a growing trend in the Jewish community to question circumcision.

These quotes, as listed from the following site, are their religious reasonings to not circumcise :

http://www.circumcision.org/question.htm :

"A male child born of a Jewish mother is a Jew, whether he is circumcised or not.

Jewish circumcision has never had anything to do with health concerns.

Circumcision conflicts with significant Jewish laws and values.

An Israeli organization publicly opposes circumcision. "
~~~~
These are not my ideas. Please, please don't flame me.

The people do consider themselves an integral part of the Jewish community.

When using a clamping device radical foreskin removal is performed, and significant changes occur in the male.

According to the following article:

http://mothering.com/10-0-0/html/10-...cision85.shtml

"When the circumcised penis becomes erect, the immobilized remaining skin is stretched, sometimes so tightly that not enough skin is left to cover the erect shaft. Hair-bearing skin from the groin and scrotum is often pulled onto the shaft, where hair is not normally found."

(Hair is not normally found there.)

"Circumcision alters the appearance of the penis drastically. It permanently externalizes the glans, normally an internal organ. Circumcision leaves a large circumferential surgical scar on the penile shaft. Because circumcision usually necessitates tearing the foreskin from the glans, pieces of the glans may be torn off, too, leaving it pitted and scarred. Shreds of foreskin may adhere to the raw glans, forming tags and bridges of dangling, displaced skin.32"

(Leaves a large scar, and with the tearing of the foreskin from the glans, skin tags and bridges of dangling, displaced skin can form, as well as leaving the glans pitted and scarred.)

"the circumcised penis may be permanently twisted, or curve or bow during erection.33 The contraction of the scar tissue may pull the shaft into the abdomen, in effect shortening the penis or burying it completely.34"

(Permanent twisting or bowing can occur as well as shortening of the length.)

In all sincerity, ingesting food is temporary. Circumcision is not.
post #44 of 74
In all sincerity.

The analogy still holds. Because those who choose not to circumcize who are Jewish generally choose to eat cheeseburgers, too. (They're not kosher.)

The fact of people who are born Jews questioning and leaving behind certain Jewish traditions and religious obligations is not new, and has absolutely no bearing on the religion itself.

And you're right, the son of a Jewish mother is automatically Jewish. The bris doesn't "make" someone Jewish, that's a misconception. The bris has another purpose, and if people choose not to follow that, fine. Their choice.

Since you're on this line of thought, remember that male converts to Judaism who were not previously circumcized have a bris as part of the conversion. And for all of the things posted on these boards about the physical differences, you should know that they tell a different story.

And I should say that I strongly oppose RIC. Just to head that off at the pass.

- Amy
post #45 of 74
Quote:
A male child born of a Jewish mother is a Jew, whether he is circumcised or not.
Uhhuh. And so is anyone born of a jewish mother who does anything not in occordance with jewish torah law.

Quote:
Jewish circumcision has never had anything to do with health concerns.
uhhuh. That was never, and still is not the reason for it.
Personally I am 100% against RIC.

Quote:
Circumcision conflicts with significant Jewish laws and values.
That is quite an interesting reason not to do it, as bris milah is part of those "jewish laws". Which laws and values do the rest of the laws that the same jews whose reason this is not to do bris conflict with? Like shabbos, kashrus, etc. etc.....

Why does this thread (from the first response to the OP) keeping ending back up at religions that do circ? Or at least one specific religion.

-BelovedBird
post #46 of 74
Yammer ...

:LOL

And laila, you didn't answer me about the clamps. What does that have to do with the religious question?

- Amy
post #47 of 74
Quote:
... by BelovedBird
... Why does this thread (from the first response to the OP) keeping ending back up at religions that do circ? Or at least one specific religion.
Watch it, hon ... I say things like that and get told that I'm paranoid.

Then again, just because you're paranoid doesn't mean you're not being followed ...



- Amy
post #48 of 74
Quote:
Originally posted by amyrpk


Watch it, hon ... I say things like that and get told that I'm paranoid.

Then again, just because you're paranoid doesn't mean you're not being followed ...



- Amy
I just thought it was, um, noteworthy? that the thread could have been a "I don't circ....." thread instead it turned into this....

I dunno.

Yes Yammer - facinating

Laila, I am wondering the same thing as Amy.

-BelovedBird
post #49 of 74
Hi,
The schikse in the back could use some help...what is RIC?
post #50 of 74
Quote:
Originally posted by kama'aina mama
Hi,
The schikse in the back could use some help...what is RIC?
Routine Infant Circ.

HTH.
post #51 of 74
HTH?

Man, when did typing whole words become too much trouble? I'm foundering here people!
post #52 of 74
amyrpk & beloved bird: where do you get your patience? I'm impressed with your civility here - thank you!
post #53 of 74
HTH=Hope This Helps

HTH
post #54 of 74
Quote:
Originally posted by kama'aina mama
HTH?

Man, when did typing whole words become too much trouble? I'm foundering here people!
I'm sorry you feel you are foundering. It's not that typing words became 'too much trouble' for me. I was simply using common shorthand for internet communication. Didn't mean to throw you off in any way. I see alot of 'DH' and 'DS', 'DD' on this board and assumed that internet abbreviations were acceptable.

If I'm wrong about that, please let me know!

HTH=Hope that/this helps/helped.

Here's a link with many commonly used acronyms. Most of it's fertility related (sorry) but at the end are many non-fertility acronyms that you will see on message boards and virtual sorts of worlds...See the 'GENERAL INTERNET ABBREVIATIONS' section.

I hope you're able to feel less floundering after having this info!!

http://www.fertilityplus.org/faq/acronyms.html
post #55 of 74
Both posted at EXACTLY the same time! JINX! But who owes who a Coke if I call it? LOL

It's cool luvinlivin... it's not you, it's me... I know lots of abbreviations and they are certainly perfectly kosher here at Mothering but I guess you can't ever know them all! And my brain is a wee bit fried from a long night with a restless nurser. Thank you both for flashing me a light in the fog.
post #56 of 74
Quote:
Originally posted by amyrpk
And I should say that I strongly oppose RIC. Just to head that off at the pass.
Quote:
Originally posted by BelovedBird
Personally I am 100% against RIC.
actually Judaism as a whole has always been against RIC (for gentiles) In Moreh Nevuchim (Guide for the Perplexed), chapter 49, the Rambam
says: "No one, however, should circumcise himself or his son for any
other reason than pure faith; for circumcision is not like an incision
on the leg or a burn on the arm, but a very difficult operation."

now once again I'm wondering - and it would be great if the OP (original poster) could answer this - was the question "What are religious reasons NOT to circ.?" ? Because that doesn't seem to be what we are discussing at all.....
post #57 of 74
Galations 5:2 (NIV) "Mark my words!! I, Paul tell you that if you let yourselves be circumsised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. (3) again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. (4) You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated by Christ; you have fallen away from grace. (5) But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the rightousnes for which we hope. (6) For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love."

Galations 6:12 (NIV) "Those who want to make a good impression owtwardly are trying to compel you to be circumcised. The only reason they do this is to avoid being persecuted for the cross of Christ. (13) Not even those who are circumcised obey the law, yet they want tyou to be circumcised that they may boast about your flesh. (14) May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me and I to the world. (15) neither ciorcumcision nor uncircumcision mean anything; what counts is a new creation (16) Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule, even to the Isreal of God.

So if you are a Christian, even a Jew who believes Jesus is the Messiah (that is what v. 16 is talking about what you do to your body has absolutely no effect on your eternal soul. AND if you circumcise because you think you can earn some kind of favor from God or because you don't want people to harrass you about not being circumcised then you are sinning because what matters is your relationship with God not what you do outwardly or what other people think.

So I think it is very clear ont e Boble that Since Jesus is our salvation (not the law and therefore circumcision) that as Christians we are not supposed to circumcise for religious reasons.
post #58 of 74
As a Christian, I choose not to Circumcise because that Covenant was filled by Christ. If I were a practicing Jew, I would Circumcise to fulfill my covenant with God. In the same way that I choose to baptize, as a Christian, to show the world and my child that he belongs to God, I would Circumcise, if I were Jew, to show the world and my child, that he belongs to God. And yes, I understand that a baptism does not physically alter a child, but to me, the thought and the intention is the same.

To all of my Jewish sisters, I admire your patinece, tolerance and willingness to teach, educate, and inform.
post #59 of 74
Many people don't circumcise because religious historical evidence shows the ritual involved slicing a sliver of foreskin from just the very tip. (Circumcising with flint knives also gives us important insight into the method used. Exodus 4, 25. Joshua 5, 3.)

See : The Statue of (King) David, by Michelangelo.

http://graphics.stanford.edu/projects/mich/

Since a Mohel uses a Mogen Clamp, according to the site provided here earlier, many feel the practice of circumcision has been altered too much. Much more (useful, functional) skin is removed.

The foreskin serves many important functions.

I am NOT here to criticise ANYONE'S reasons for ANYTHING. I am not addressing the Mothers here who DO circ for their reasons. Just trying to provide some answers to the original poster's Q.

I'll be glad to try to provide a researched answer with references to anyone's query directed at me. Or you can PM me if you'd prefer.

Thanks. This is a very interesting thread.

<edited for clarity>
post #60 of 74
Quote:
... by laila
... Since a Mohel uses a Mogen Clamp, according to the site provided here earlier ...
A minor correction, laila. I don't find the link you refer to, but it does not refer to all mohels.

I've never been to a bris where the mohel used any kind of a clamp at all.

None. Zip. No clamps.

I'm not saying there are no mohelim that do, just that none do in my neck of the Judaic woods.

And I would venture to say it's a safe bet that the majority of mohelim in the Orthodox Jewish world do not use any clamps.

Just to clarify.

Was that an answer to my previous question about why you raised the list of clamps earlier?

- Amy
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