"To Train Up a Child"... - Page 9

[our veggie baby]

I would suspect that a lot of people feel passionately about this subject because they feel that while children are defenseless, that adults should probably know better than to be hitting children and babies...

I know it seems like people are ganging up on you, but seriously, hitting is wrong. There is no if, ands, or buts about it. Plain and simple, hitting is wrong, there is no debate.
Just as if you claim to be a Christian, you will admit murder is wrong. Even if you kill someone in self defense, obviously, I think God takes some considerations that you were preserving your life and all, but at the end of the day, murder is murder....there can't be a changed definition just to suit someone else's justification.

So either hitting someone is right or wrong, you have to know where you stand on that, because it seriously is a black and white issue. The only exeption, MAYBE, being self defense, but as I said, hitting someone, even in self defense, is a violent act, though justified.

So if you agree that hitting is wrong, why would you consider doing it to a child?
That is where we come back to the old "what is wrong with a tap on the butt??"...well like I said, that defies logic when you think about it because if your child will respond and behave with just a "tap" on the butt, SURELY they will respond just as well, if not better, with alternative methods.

[Kateana]

Originally Posted by NYCVeg

I just don't understand the logic that children "need" this kind of training...I'm hardly some out-of-control maniac who never learned about proper boundaries! ).

Why don't people understand that children are people, just smaller?

Personally, I would see the contrast between kids like my sisters (who according to some are just to scared to do ANYthing) who are so sweet and amazing little girls, and kids out in public whose parents are miserable and saying things like "Johnny, will you please stop doing that?" no change... "Honey, I said please..." and so on... Anyways, on top of that, I was raised hearing that it was necessary. That's why I've thought that it was. On top of that, when I saw shows like Ricky Lake (I swear, I don't watch it anymore! haha) with guests who are afraid of their kids, I'd think, who is the boss, here, etc., etc... but I suppose those kids are probably produced by people who don't treat their kids right to begin with, in whatever way... I used to just think it was mainly b/c they didn't get spanked, and it somehow backed up my opinion that spanking was necessary...

It sounds like your parents were great.

[famousmockngbrd]

It's a common misconception, that gentle discipline means no discipline. It's just not true. GD does not mean letting your kids do whatever they want. It also doesn't mean you beg your kids to behave. It's about respect, and compromise, and flexibility, and cooperation, on everybody's part. I really think you should check out the reading list at the top of the forum if you are interested in learning more, there are some great books out there on the subject.

[DebraBaker]

I am fierce in my defense of children, to answer Katena.

I have never presumed to be gentle.

DB

[Kateana]

Originally Posted by mommyofshmoo

Yeah, but where on earth are you going to find two virgins? (This is an homage to '80's teen movies, not a serious question.)
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I guess my point was that bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad people.
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However, there are some natural consquences (or risks) to actions and that is what we need to teach children.
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But I don't think everything bad that happens to people is their own fault. and I do think there is danger in being too trusting- especially expecting other people, or even G-d, to protect you, rather than protecting yourslef.

re: movie quote...
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re: good things... absolutely.
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That seems logical...
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Of course it isn't their fault... I guess I may have made it sound that way, but I definitely didn't mean it that way... However I disagree re: trusting God to protect you. Jesus was a hard and perfect example of that: after praying that if it was God's will, please "take this cup from me" (meaning, please don't let me be crucified, hopefully there's another way this can be done?), Jesus was arrested, to be tried and then killed. A disciple, who was a zealot, cut off the ear of a guard to protect Jesus. Jesus' response was to heal the ear, (I think he also rebuked the zealot) and go willingly with the guards. He trusted God, even unto death. Of course, this is also veering way off topic, heading toward pacifism/non-violence, which I also like to discuss. I'm sure I have a lot to learn about it (like how it applies to spanking!), but what I've learned so far was from Tolstoy's writings on Civil Disobedience and Non-Violence, and of course, the life of Jesus...

[beanandpumpkin]

Originally Posted by Kateana

Personally, I would see the contrast between kids like my sisters (who according to some are just to scared to do ANYthing) who are so sweet and amazing little girls, and kids out in public whose parents are miserable and saying things like "Johnny, will you please stop doing that?" no change... "Honey, I said please..." and so on... Anyways, on top of that, I was raised hearing that it was necessary. That's why I've thought that it was. On top of that, when I saw shows like Ricky Lake (I swear, I don't watch it anymore! haha) with guests who are afraid of their kids, I'd think, who is the boss, here, etc., etc... but I suppose those kids are probably produced by people who don't treat their kids right to begin with, in whatever way... I used to just think it was mainly b/c they didn't get spanked, and it somehow backed up my opinion that spanking was necessary...

It sounds like your parents were great.

It sounds like you have seen lots of cases of inconsistent and ineffective parenting that have nothing to do with spanking or not spanking. I have never asked my child repeatedly to "stop doing that." I will say one time "we have to sit at the table in a restaurant, if you're running around someone could drop something hot on you, and these other people came to enjoy their dinner quietly." then I give him something else to do. If he tries to get out of his seat again I say one time "I cannot let you stay here if you cannot follow the rules. If you cannot stay in your seat, we will have to sit in the car." Believe you me, two times of coming outside and sitting in the car with me while Daddy and baby enjoy dinner in the restaurant was all it took to cure my son of needing to jump out of his seat. That is a logical consequence...behave in a way that bothers others in a restaurant, you cannot stay in the restaurant. Was this convenient or pleasant for me? NO. Did I enjoy hearing him cry in the car with me? Of course not. The first time, we sat outside for about 5 minutes and then I said "do you think you can try again?" And he was fine the rest of the meal. The second time we were nearly done anyway and we did not go back in. This is what I consider effective parenting. Sometimes you have to do things that are inconvenient and hard.

If we'd gone home, and I said "because you jumped out of your seat and ran around and made everyone in the restaurant miserable, you are going to get a spanking," that would have probably been more convenient for me. I would have been able to eat my dinner (while at the same time nagging continuously at my son), and maybe I could even tell myself "this is in love, not out of anger." But maybe part of me WOULD be angry...after all, he all but ruined my dinner, and made me feel embarrassed in public! So the "not spanking in anger" would be a lie, no?

Not to mention, fairly ineffective. My son would have been able to continue with his escapades, would be allowed to ruin the dinner, and for waht price? Maybe to him the spanking a half hour later would be a small enough price to pay for acting up for an hour and getting all that attention.

As far as the teens on Ricki Lake, you do know that it is hyped up and not real, right? Even if it were real, as there are out of control teens, do you think that you're giong to put a 15 year old over your knee? When your prime method of discipline is not working because your child is too big......then what?

Michelle

[famousmockngbrd]

Jesus was an adult, who freely chose all those things. Children can't make those same choices.

[LizD]

It's always the kids who were brought up in really strict and/or religious households who go completely nuts and out of control as pre- and teens, anyway. I have certainly seen this over and over when I was a kid and now that my friends have kids that age. It's always the kids who were spanked or treated too rigidly who deceive their parents and get in way over their heads. The children who've been treated respectfully know they deserve respect, know to stay away from people who won't give them the same respect they have enjoyed their whole lives, and don't need to go off the deep end. They get in trouble, sure, but IME for far less than those whose parents spanked or otherwise kept too tight a leash when they were young.

Since not everyone here believes in the Christians' god at all, let alone various particular interpretations of Jesus, it is difficult to keep a gentle discipline discussion on topic if the subject keeps getting turned to whether or not some diety loves one.

[Kateana]

Originally Posted by kchoffmann

What?!?!? I'm sorry, I want to be respectful here, but do you know anyone who has their children in day care? I don't have my kid in day care, for the record, but I feel very confident saying this is not why most have their children in day care. You've created quite an offensive stereotype there. I take offense, in particular, at your suggestion that working mothers are somehow bad parents in comparison to those who stay at home... More importantly, I'm interested in your "horror" about kids in day care -- there's much research suggesting day care is anything but harmful -- but then no similar kneejerk horror about hitting-- plenty of research suggesting hitting is quite damaging.

Also, in response to your response to me (I'm the one who tried to make a point about your comparison of grown ups in the workplace and children). I understand you were using an example to make a point to another poster. You suggested we need to make our children do what they don't want to because when they grow they will need to deal with things they don't like. I was saying, Sure they will. But teaching them to silently swallow their feelings about something is not terribly effective. Rather, the goal is to teach them to recognize and respect their feelings about their environment, and then have an appropriate way to deal with those feelings (such as being assertive, etc.)

I started by saying that there are exceptions... yes I know people w/daycare kids... it was most definitely a generalization (or call it a stereotype, if you want): like I said, there would be exceptions... some people really need to use DC. I wasn't talking about them. sorry you are offended, but I still have a severe aversion to the DC system in general. It saddens me that *some* people would continue to have kids when they can't/won't/don't want to take care of them. Like I said in another post, I see it as a form of abandonment, which I have my own issues with. BTW, did I use the word "all" anywhere in my post re: DC?

Of course there is no research suggesting that DC is damaging... it would cause a huge uproar if anyone suggested that a parent stay home with the kids. We have come so far, remember? That was how it was done prior to the 50's. Can you imagine what it would do to the economy if people downsized and decided it was more important to take care of the family than to work for that vacation/boat/landscaping/luxury? Half the spending and twice the jobs? If research EVER showed that it was more beneficial to have a 2 parent family, with one at home, we would NEVER hear about it. I guarentee it. Until we do hear it, we are left to speculate.

I'm not horrified by the "hitting" (I call it spanking) b/c I am still learning about GD... please be patient with me...

I understand what you are saying now re:co-workers... I think there was a misunderstanding. I don't think that kids need to be made to do what they don't want *solely* b/c they will have to later in life... however, it is something that will have to learned eventually... and I think you are right, that appropriately dealing with feelings is also to be learned. From your response, it seems like maybe I came across as saying that a kid should just buck up and do nothing, bottling it up inside? I can see how it would be taken that way, but I really didn't mean it that way. To be fair, though, in a workplace, asking to be removed from the situation wouldn't usually fly. I think adults would be expected to try to work it out, or just buck it up and do the job they're there for, YK? The point in my original response to whoever brought up the workplace illustration, was that I thought it was a poor one. Standing nose-to-nose has it's place, and it obviously wouldn't be at work.

[Kateana]

Originally Posted by RubyV

THIS BEARS REPEATING

IF HITTING AN ADULT IS WRONG, WHY IS HITTING SOMEONE SMALLER AND WEAKER OK?

I"m sorry, but saying that reapeating yourself is tiring, and frustrating, thus making swatting ok, makes me ill. Hell, I"m an adult, and I have never learned anything by seeing/hearing/reading it once. Learning takes repitition. To be so impatient with an infant is sad, and makes me wonder what you think parenting entails? To parent is to teach. It is to explain to my child the whys of the world.

It looks like you are proficient at doing the TWIST. Maybe you could teach us all...

[RubyV]

Originally Posted by our veggie baby

Ummm, I REALLY hope no one, especially you , derived from my statement that I am PRO spanking??? I really hope you were using my statement above to reiterate that spanking a child is ridiculous and cruel....I would hope reading my statement, people would instantly get that I am adamantly ANTI spanking...just wanted to clear that up because readingyour response it sort of looked like you thought I was pro-spanking...

I am in agreement with you.

[Kateana]

Originally Posted by famousmockngbrd

I'm sure you know that a cornerstone of GD is natural consequences, in other words allowing children as much as possible to experience the results of their actions.
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If you get spanked for disobeying, all you learn is that X action gets you spanked.
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I think parenting philosophies like the Pearls' create obedient children. I think parenting philosophies like GD create independent thinkers. IMO, independent thinking is a more valuable life skill, not just for the individual but for society. Different people have different goals.

Thank you for giving me the benefit of the doubt, but I am SO new to GD, that all I know is what I have learned here... I do have a lot to learn... and I like the idea of more natural consequences.
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True.
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Personally, I would like to raise children who are obedient to God, and independent of man. I think both obedience and independence are valuable, and IMO they are not exclusive of each other...

[RubyV]

Originally Posted by Kateana

It looks like you are proficient at doing the TWIST. Maybe you could teach us all...

My dance training is actually in New York Style "on 2" Mambo. However, I am fairly good at most dances, and can teach for a modest fee.

I can't believe that spanking children is still being excused. I can quote the post for you where you clearly state that you find reptition frustration.

Guess what? It's called parenting. Spanking is simply what people resort to when they are too lazy to parent. There is nothing loving about it. Defend your parents all you want. It's still wrong.

I started by saying that there are exceptions... yes I know people w/daycare kids... it was most definitely a generalization (or call it a stereotype, if you want): like I said, there would be exceptions... some people really need to use DC. I wasn't talking about them. sorry you are offended, but I still have a severe aversion to the DC system in general. It saddens me that *some* people would continue to have kids when they can't/won't/don't want to take care of them. Like I said in another post, I see it as a form of abandonment, which I have my own issues with. BTW, did I use the word "all" anywhere in my post re: DC?

Of course there is no research suggesting that DC is damaging... it would cause a huge uproar if anyone suggested that a parent stay home with the kids. We have come so far, remember? That was how it was done prior to the 50's. Can you imagine what it would do to the economy if people downsized and decided it was more important to take care of the family than to work for that vacation/boat/landscaping/luxury? Half the spending and twice the jobs? If research EVER showed that it was more beneficial to have a 2 parent family, with one at home, we would NEVER hear about it. I guarentee it. Until we do hear it, we are left to speculate.

I'm not horrified by the "hitting" (I call it spanking) b/c I am still learning about GD... please be patient with me...

YOur priorities are really screwed up if dc is horrifying but physical abuse is not. YOu are comfortable calling dc damaging, but not hitting? Reality check anyone?

BTW, the phenomenon of the stay at home mom was not a reality prior to the fifties. it was a reality for a small segment of the population post WWII through to the 60's. Women have worked from the beginning of time, in the fields, etc, with children being worn while momma worked, or the extended family/community providing child care. One can still see evidence of this in indigenious cultures.

[our veggie baby]

I am all for natural and logical consequences...that is why I am such a fan of GD...it certainly DOES NOT mean letting your child run the house or do whatever they want to...to me, GD is all about teaching your child to think for themselves and also teaching them how things work in the real world, which after all, is where they will be spending most of their life when they are out of your care. It is the same example of the restaurant as stated above by another poster....in the real world, if you acted nutty at a restaurant, the staff isn't going to continuously ask you nicely to "behave" just as a parent shouldn't...on the flip side, the staff is not going to start kicking your @ss either until you behave---they will ask (or tell) you to leave and not to return. The only difference with a child, is that the parent is responsible for doing that (like the above poster made the great example) and seriously, kids don't get nearly enough credit---if eating out is something they enjoy which almost ALL children do, it will only take once or twice of "we don't run in a restaurant, if you don't feel you can sit and eat, we will go to the car while Daddy and baby finish" (or whatever) and consistently following through, that children quickly learn it is more beneficial for everyone involved (most of all them) if they eat at the table and run around after dinner at a park or whatever---

A lot of pro-spanking parents and negative discipline parents I have come in contact with are real control freaks imo...they get this haughty, offended attitude...my child shouldn't run my life!! I shouldn't HAVE to sit in a car while everyone eats because my child acts up!!!...kind of attitude...and to a point they are right in a roundabout way, but at the same time, we make A LOT of sacrifices as parents, it comes with the territory and should be expected. I'm sorry, children aren't some afterthought or some accesory to your life to put in cute clothes to prance around in front of company to show everyone how "well-behaved" they are---children are hard work, they take A LOT of patience, sacrifice, understanding, compassion, sometimes they will drive you nuts, but in my humble opinion, if you aren't willing to sign up for that, you seriously need to consider whether you should have children in the first place. I mean, yes, children can be wonderful and sweet and loving and a joy and the best thing that ever happened to you, but on the flip side, there is a whole world of work involved--and that is not a bad thing, it is what it is, and if you feel resentment because you have to give up a meal or 2 to effectively teach them something, rather than taking the lazy, ineffective, cruel way out and just whoppin them one, then it would seem that some priorities need to be examined.

[LizD]

RubyV,



(and I miss nyc too! )

[Kateana]

Originally Posted by our veggie baby

It disgusts me that people are actually DEFENDING someone pushing their toddler in a pool of water, saying "well babies drown in bathtubs"....my God, that is some sadistic stuff....it scares me that there are people who think like that...

ETA: okay we posted at the same time so the "out of love" thing weas explained, and while I believe you when you say your Dad never hauled off and panked you...I still believe that hitting someone is in NO way a loving act...

Furthermore, at the risk of sounding like some kind of psychologist or whatever, it actually IS possible to say you love your Dad and that you know he loved you and still maybe admit that how he disciplined was wrong...I mean, I know firsthand I always wanted to defend my Mom for her "discipline techniques" because after all, I turned out "fine"...but there came a point where I had to be real with myself and admit, yes, she loves me, but she really f-ed up in the discipline department and I have to let go of that and get past it....

I am *a little bit* sorry that it took me too long to respond to you, but as you can see, there are a lot of people here that have things to say to/at me (being the only one here not so familiar with GD), and I respond to most in the order that I read them. On top of that, I have a few other things to do during the day. But believe me, I am back here to continue the discussion when I get a chance. And yet another thing: I actually think about this stuff before I reply, so I did mull your question over a bit before I had a proper response for you.

I find it really hard to talk to people who ignore important points and nitpick. If you read the discussion re: the pond... my WHOLE point, after saying I also think it's extreme and wouldn't do it, is that just because an act COULD cause death, accidentally, doesn't make it abuse. The pond seemed to me to have little to do with spanking, except that it was also advocated by the Pearls.

If you are going to be sick, I suggest you cover your keyboard with plastic or something.

I get what you are saying about spanking not being a loving act. What I try to tell you, and explain since you asked, is that I was told that from my first spanking. Forgive me for having believed it, but I am here for a reason, and that is to learn. If I repulse you, then you probably feel you have nothing to contribute to helping me in my learning, or you don't believe I am here to learn... When your DC are confused or misunderstanding, I hope you are more gracious to them.

Maybe you haven't read my post yet, where I say pretty much what you just said re: forgiving my dad.

[our veggie baby]

To put it bluntly, anyone who doesn't think throwing a child who can't swim into a pool of water against their will is abuse, is sadistic and sick....if that doesn't apply to you, then don't be upset. If it does apply to you, then yes, I think that is a sick way of thinking. Sorry if that offends you.

[Kateana]

beanandpumpkin: That story of the "near drowning" is so sad. I know if my dad or mom did that, I would be... damaged, most likely.

[our veggie baby]

You don't repulse me, but truthfully, some of your um, opinions and beliefs concerning discipline are quite offensive and upsetting to me and some others on here. Repeating again, that we are happy you are seeking to learn more about gentle discipline and REALLY REALLY hope that you do, honestly, but when you seem to continuously defend the actions of the Pearls and those of your parents in terms of spanking and even saying that the pool thing wasn't abuse, it is disconcerting and upsetting to say the least.
I am sincerely glad you are seeking this out BEFORE you have your child and hope that a lot of it sticks with you when you actually have him/her...for both your sakes...

[Kateana]

Originally Posted by Nurturing Mama

This just doesn't seem very helpful to me. A child isn't supposed to do x . child does x , parent says since you did x you get spanked. If my child did x , I would say, "Remember we're not supposed to do x because (insert various reasons)" and leave the hitting, which is totally irrelevant to x . This way I hope to teach my child the real reason for not doing x , instead of teaching him not to do x because it will result in being hit.

It sounds like you would have handled it much better than my dad did. Believe me, I have a couple of spanking sessions in my memory that make that example look like GD, but if I shared them, most people here would think I was advocating it, or somehow defending my dad just because I'm not bitter at him. Although he did it the way he thought was best, and I can understand and appreciate that, I will do things differently with my own kids. Luckily, I have some time to think about it and learn before I have to deal with a spirited child.