"To Train Up a Child"... - Page 2

[Kateana]

Oh! Shoot! I forgot to even address the theology thing. I feel like a jerk even going into this here, b/c it's not the place for it, but since I didn't bring it up, maybe it's ok?

I believe what the Pearls were saying was not that children are inherently bad, or displeasing to God. Mankind was created in perfect communion with God, but Adam and Eve disobeyed, and now we are all in need of reconciliation. (I don't pretend to know or understand the whole explanation for how sin was transfered from Adam to us, but that's what the Bible says, and therefore the Pearls.) They say that until a child is able to make that reconciliation themselves, parents are responsible for being their conscience. It seems logical enough: we can't expect kids to do what is right naturally, on their own, until they have been taught how and why. (If you really need an example: candy.)

One last thing, and this is more my opinion than me trying to rephrase the Pearls for you: I think that for me, as a Christian, it would be best to parent in a way that mirrors God's relationship to us, so that one day my child will desire a relationship with his heavenly Father. What I have experienced in life so far is that sometimes the consequences for my actions (disobedience to God) are painful. I wouldn't want a toddler to have to learn this by getting hit by a car b/c he won't listen to "NO", but rather by a flick (thumb and middle finger) on the hand in the living room while learning not to use the phone, for example. I just think it's important for kids to learn that there are rules that we sometimes don't understand, but they are there for a reason. And that's just me, and thank you again for listening.

[mommyofshmoo]

I come from a perspective of science, but I think the reason children need "guidance" is because children's first and most important need is to learn.

I think G-d made children so inquisitive so that the human race would survive, rather than be eaten by animals. For those who haven't noticed, the ONLY thing we have going for us from an evolutionary standpoint is that we are really, really, really smart compared to other animals. (And by smart, I mean able to solve new problems.)

So the reason I object to flicking a child's wrist to stop them from touching the phone (not dangerous by the way) is that studies have shown that kids who have their hands slapped gentle to teach them to stay away from objects decrease their reaching for and touching ALL objects. Well, touching things is how we learn- so you're basically discouraging learning so that you don't have to put the phone higher up away from the kids.

My child has never been hit by a car and has a healthy fear of the road even though I've never hit her. This is a big issue for me because I've seen a toddler run over.

I think it's quite possible to teach and guide a child without hitting them. Maybe not if your goal is unquestioning obedience, but I wouldn't want my child to be unquestioningly obedient to authority figures anyway. As for her obedience to G-d? I beleive G-d is in her heart and if she follows her heart she'll make the right decisions.

Maybe this is why I can't be part of this conversation usually. I don't beleive in the idea of stewardship- that those with power and control need to expect unblinking obedience from the powerless. I don't beleive that those with power have the right to hit those without it.

But that's just me. I'm not terribly religious, if the pope himself tried to slap my child, I'd kick his butt.

[mommyofshmoo]

By the way- I think hitting people is wrong, heck even hitting animals is wrong. Just becauise children have no rights does not make it OK for me to hit them.

[julesinottawa]

Originally Posted by phathui5

I've read that too. That book is horrible, absolutely horrible. Note that they have a section on their website about dealing with Child Protective Services. I wonder why?

This might be a trivial point but there is a whole association dedicated to dealing with the defence of homeschoolers...so the fact that they give you tools for dealing with CPS doesn't automatically make them bad (IMO they are still monsters). It seems that any way of thinking, good OR bad, off the beaten track has the potential to get you in trouble with government agencies.

[NYCVeg]

I just read part of the first chapter of this book online--I couldn't get through the whole thing. Hitting a TEN-MONTH-OLD with a switch for not coming when called (umm...can these 10-month-olds even walk)? Pulling a baby's hair if it accidentally bites while nursing? Calling infants problematically "self-centered"?!?

*shudder*

[dido1]

Why oh why do people think this is okay? It makes me sick.

Now, I'm not a christian but it seems to me that Adam and Eve committed sin as ADULTS. So why should innocent children suffer for it? That's sort of like visiting the sins of the father on the son. Rather pointless.

The poster who is advocating this method of parenting really bugs me. I just had to have the conversation with my MIL that "flicking" is not okay, since she just suggested that I do this to my son, who is biting a lot right now. How in the H-E-double hockey sticks is flicking my 9 mo old's cheek going to teach him not to bite? It's just going to teach him that mommy hurts him.

Hitting, HAIR PULLING (that just makes me ill), flicking, etc, is NOT OKAY.

I wish I had the link to an article I read by a Christian mother who followed Ezzo's "Growing Children God's Way" or what ever the heck it's called, with her first child and then came to realize that she had created a fearful, vengeful child who thought hurting his baby sister was okay. It was a great article and really highlighted the problems "flicking" as discipline created in her home.

Thank God some of us are raising children non-violently. It gives me hope for the world.

[LizD]

nak

Free To Be...is available on amazon, btw---perhaps everyone should buy it to prepare for the worst of this backlash (ita about that too).

[Dechen]

Originally Posted by Kateana

I wouldn't want a toddler to have to learn this by getting hit by a car b/c he won't listen to "NO", but rather by a flick (thumb and middle finger) on the hand in the living room while learning not to use the phone, for example. I just think it's important for kids to learn that there are rules that we sometimes don't understand, but they are there for a reason. And that's just me, and thank you again for listening.

With all respect, I am not interested to hear that you think flicking a child in punishment is okay. Really, I'm not!

[mommyofshmoo]

Original Sin- it's been used to justify so much cruelty throughout the ages. I think my child is born innocent and why should I be so arrogant as to think I understand G-d better than she does?

My dad is a lawyer and for the past few years has been developing expertise in biblical law and it's interpretation in modern business law- so I hear all about passages and what various professors he works withthink about them. It's really amazing how easy it is to misinterpret the bible if you don't know the historical context. At the very least, it may be said that learning the historical context lends itself to a more complex and different interpretation than we might take if we read it today.

That said, I am always suprised people even try to justify their actions using biblical passages. The bible also mentions having several wives, keeping slaves, and lots of rules that can only be truly understood by looking at the various translations, their meaning, the historical context, etc.

Maybe I'll pick my dad's brain somtimes about some of the passages that talk about children.

[DebraBaker]

If my siblings were being subjected to the Pearls' teaching I would be actively working on getting them removed from their home and into my protective care.

There is nothing you can say in defense of this teaching.

I don't give a rat's ass whether the children are turning out ok. How do you measure ok? They are pleasent? Do they have a choice???

In fact the first thing I noticed about this teaching is they advocate you *provoke* an altercation of wills between the parent and toddler if no event takes place during the course of the day. They actually teach parents to set up an event that will end up with the child ignoring the voice of the parent, be beaten, and finally pass the artificially induced test of wills (if you read the book it is in there!!!!)

This defies the Scriptural injunction against parents provoking their children.

In other words, they disobey Scripture to acheive their ung-dly ends.

If someone is following the advice found in the Pearls' books they are violating civil law and could have their children removed from their homes. I am no fan of cps but this is one case where they are needed. If my sisters or brothers (or even grandchildren) were being treated to the abuse the Pearls advocate I would be in sin if I didn't intervene.

Sorry for the strong words but I sincerely believe they are warrented.

Debra Baker

[our veggie baby]

I completely agree...coming from a Christian, it is completely NOT imo how God intended children to be guided, taught, etc...people will L O V E to throw scripture aorund, usually out of context, OLD testament text that has nothing to do with Jesus Christ (isn't he the one CHRISTians are meant to be following anyway?)...then smugly sit back and use their alleged "Godliness" to justify sadistic acts such as hitting a defenseless child.

It absolutely sickens me. I was hit as a child, not severely "abused" but hit, and hit a lot nonetheless. I still love my parents and am close with my Mother, but boy did I have A L O T of resentment until pretty recently (I am 27)....I have control issues (as in, NO ONE can "control" me even if it is only my warped perception)...I had discipline issues as a teenager, trust issues, etc and the like....

I hate, absolutely H A T E when people make statements like "I was hit (or hit my kids) and they turned out fine"...please tell me what the H*LL fine means???? There are people who survived Nazi concentration camps who are "fine"....there are women who have been brutally raped who are "fine"...there are children who are severely beat and tortured who turn out "fine....there are people who see their whole families murdered in places like Sudan who turn out "fine".....
Of course all of these people probably have deep seeded emotional issues that will last a lifetime and everything that goes along with it, but they are "fine" in terms of most of them can hold jobs, obey the law, have friends, carry on with their lives the best they can...but are they "fine"?

Please don't mistake me, I am in no way comparing myself to a concentration camp victim or anything of the like, I am merely saying, these people who claim they were hit or that they hit their kids and their kids turn out "fine"...you really don't have any idea of that do you? Just because they aren't robbing 7-11s or whatever doesn't mean they are fine. I know I wasn't "fine" for a long time, even though all outward appearances would seem that I was.

Anyway, people who advocate hitting of any kind on a child to me have a sadistic, controlling side and it is hard for me to be close to them in any capacity. That may sound harsh, as I do believe many parents who "spank" are decent people who love their children and want to do the best by them...but we all kow the road to hell is paved with good intentions isn't it?

I have a bumper sticker I love. It simply says: The Christian right is neither.

Live your life how JESUS CHRIST (Christ being the root word of Christian after all) wanted us to live if you claim to be so Christian. That is what I try to do, I am by no means perfect, but I do know enough to know Jesus never slapped anyone around.

[PurplePixiePooh]

Just to clarify one small thing...the Pearl's methods are not how the Amish train children - it is how they train *horses*. Ther eis one example of an Amish father and his son on his lap, but this is still different than what the Pearls advocate. Don't want to give the Amish a bad name

[mommyofshmoo]

Originally Posted by PurplePixiePooh

Just to clarify one small thing...the Pearl's methods are not how the Amish train children - it is how they train *horses*. Ther eis one example of an Amish father and his son on his lap, but this is still different than what the Pearls advocate. Don't want to give the Amish a bad name

Really, how do you know that? (Interested, not accusing.)

[Kateana]

First of all, I want to say that I am sorry, but I don't know how to reply to more than one post at a time using the "quote" thingie...

Originally Posted by mommyofshmoo

I come from a perspective of science, but I think the reason children need "guidance" is because children's first and most important need is to learn.

I think G-d made children so inquisitive so that the human race would survive, rather than be eaten by animals. For those who haven't noticed, the ONLY thing we have going for us from an evolutionary standpoint is that we are really, really, really smart compared to other animals. (And by smart, I mean able to solve new problems.)

So the reason I object to flicking a child's wrist to stop them from touching the phone (not dangerous by the way) is that studies have shown that kids who have their hands slapped gentle to teach them to stay away from objects decrease their reaching for and touching ALL objects. Well, touching things is how we learn- so you're basically discouraging learning so that you don't have to put the phone higher up away from the kids.

My child has never been hit by a car and has a healthy fear of the road even though I've never hit her. This is a big issue for me because I've seen a toddler run over.

I think it's quite possible to teach and guide a child without hitting them. Maybe not if your goal is unquestioning obedience, but I wouldn't want my child to be unquestioningly obedient to authority figures anyway. As for her obedience to G-d? I beleive G-d is in her heart and if she follows her heart she'll make the right decisions.

Maybe this is why I can't be part of this conversation usually. I don't beleive in the idea of stewardship- that those with power and control need to expect unblinking obedience from the powerless. I don't beleive that those with power have the right to hit those without it.

But that's just me. I'm not terribly religious, if the pope himself tried to slap my child, I'd kick his butt.

I understand what you are saying re: science, and evolution, etc., but you can probably guess that I don't come from that POV. But by "smart", I would mean given the ability to choose.

The phone not being dangerous is the whole point. If a child will listen to you on small things, you can trust them to listen with big things. I would be interested in seeing the studies you are talking about. In my experience, kids will learn that the only reason they can't touch something is b/c it's out of reach (using that method). Personally, that would make me try harder to reach something. Or, at least, that is what I'd like to teach my kids: if something seems hard, try harder. (BTW, I am really not trying to argue or convince anyone here, I'm just trying to sort this out, and I'm hoping you'll help me.)

I am glad your DC has a healthy fear of the road (and I am sorry for your experience), but how and when did the healthy fear happen? Did you have a discussion with her or was this before she was able to understand...? Maybe the road thing was a bad example, b/c I am sure I would never leave my DC anywhere near the road...

I would also not want my DC to unquestioningly obey any person, ever. However, I do want to teach my DC to obey God unquestioningly. As Creator, I believe that He knows what's best for us, always.

I am definitely up for looking for other ways to teach this to my DC without flicking or spanking, which is why I am here. I thank you for being nice while giving me your POV.

I'm with you on the Pope. It makes me cringe (but not offended) when people automatically think I am Catholic b/c I am "religious". Yuck. Also, if ANYone came near my DC to discipline him/her, I would freak out on them.

[DebraBaker]

But when parents force their children to obey them immediately and unconditionally they are ascribing for themselves the place that should only be reserved for G-d.

If a child is in such a family and he sees his parents and, as he grows up, notices that the parents are not perfect and did not deserve that unconditional obedience they may start to doubt G=d as well.

Children are apprentices, they are learning.

Also, the scriptures tell children to obey their parents but nowhere does it tell parents to force their children to obey. The companion verse to the parents is to not provoke your children (the very one the Pearls are not obeying in their teachings.)

Debra Baker

[Kateana]

Originally Posted by dido1

Why oh why do people think this is okay? It makes me sick.

Now, I'm not a christian but it seems to me that Adam and Eve committed sin as ADULTS. So why should innocent children suffer for it? That's sort of like visiting the sins of the father on the son. Rather pointless.

The poster who is advocating this method of parenting really bugs me. I just had to have the conversation with my MIL that "flicking" is not okay, since she just suggested that I do this to my son, who is biting a lot right now. How in the H-E-double hockey sticks is flicking my 9 mo old's cheek going to teach him not to bite? It's just going to teach him that mommy hurts him.

Hitting, HAIR PULLING (that just makes me ill), flicking, etc, is NOT OKAY.

I wish I had the link to an article I read by a Christian mother who followed Ezzo's "Growing Children God's Way" or what ever the heck it's called, with her first child and then came to realize that she had created a fearful, vengeful child who thought hurting his baby sister was okay. It was a great article and really highlighted the problems "flicking" as discipline created in her home.

Thank God some of us are raising children non-violently. It gives me hope for the world.

Adam and Eve sinned as adults, b/c they were created as adults. The thing about sins visiting the sons (or as the Bible says, second and third generations) is something I struggle to understand. I don't understand the Why of it, but I am starting to understand the How, especially when I hear "It runs in my family" with obesity, or addiction, or whatever. It seems that even though we don't understand it, it happens around us all the time. Maybe it was God's way of telling us that these things are genetic, but since the people in Bible times didn't have the science to back it up, He just told them "Hey, don't do ____, or it will be visited on your children's children." That's my theory, anyway...

I'm sorry I bug you. It bugs me that you get so bent out of shape about me coming here to ask questions or offer my POV.

Thank God there are some people here with the patience to help me work through this...

[Kateana]

Originally Posted by Dechen

With all respect, I am not interested to hear that you think flicking a child in punishment is okay. Really, I'm not!

Then kindly pass over my posts.

[Prajnamommy]

I feel like I have been hiding under a rock!! When I saw this thread and started to read the first post I thought ....Did somebody dig a book up from a several decades ago? ...but sadly it is not what I thought. I have to say the last few months for me have been eye openers..I really thought hitting (spanking, tapping whatever) your children was a thing of the past...On another parenting forum I was on someone wrote in to explain how to do it properly..Huh? I thought most people would find this shocking but no for the most part there were a lot of pro spankers....And they also said that it is all us non-spankers that have created teens who go and shoot up classrooms etc...I could hardly believe it and I did have to let them know that I was never spanked AND I never even thought about shooting up any classrooms!! I really thought this was rare and an unpopular sort of thing. I have worked in childcare for the last fifteen years and most spanking incidents I found were isolated incidents where the parent felt that nothing else was working at this point. I should say I have worked in programs that were for children who were considered environmentally at risk so yes I knew of spankings/ beatings and all sorts of violence in those homes.

Also the poster who told us how to spank our kids said she was a Christian and this is how children should be brought up...WHAT?!! I am not a Christian but I think the most effective way to follow that path would be to ask yourself, "What would Jesus do?" Seriously could you see Jesus hitting little children???

[Kateana]

Originally Posted by mommyofshmoo

Original Sin- it's been used to justify so much cruelty throughout the ages. I think my child is born innocent and why should I be so arrogant as to think I understand G-d better than she does?

My dad is a lawyer and for the past few years has been developing expertise in biblical law and it's interpretation in modern business law- so I hear all about passages and what various professors he works withthink about them. It's really amazing how easy it is to misinterpret the bible if you don't know the historical context. At the very least, it may be said that learning the historical context lends itself to a more complex and different interpretation than we might take if we read it today.

That said, I am always suprised people even try to justify their actions using biblical passages. The bible also mentions having several wives, keeping slaves, and lots of rules that can only be truly understood by looking at the various translations, their meaning, the historical context, etc.

Maybe I'll pick my dad's brain somtimes about some of the passages that talk about children.

I agree with you on the justification issue. It's also sad to me that religion itself has been, and still is so misused. I guess that's what we get when humans get involved.

I also agree with you on the Historical context. I am all for digging deeper to find the intended meaning, rather than the apparent meaning. If your father finds anything on this I would be interested. My first reaction, though is to think that the subject of children is not cultural or contextual, b/c every culture in history has them. But that is my first reaction, I would love to know what your father finds...

[our veggie baby]

Personally, blind compliance is a VERY dangerous thing to teach a child imo...if they blindly obey you, what stops them from blindly obeying anyone else?

There is no way to prove this of course, but it would be my educated guess that more children get abducted, abused (and don't tell), hurt, peer pressured into drugs, sex, whatever else as teens---who are taught to be "polite" and blindly obey every adult, than children who learn a healthy sense of questioning and skepticism about things---which is learned (imo) when you teach your children to "behave" by example and effective, positive discipline rather than an "obey or else" type situation...

I dunno, I am all about teaching by example...if a child can recite the whole freaking Dora show line by line, SURELY you can agree they are watching us like hawks and wanting to imitate what we do...so if you live your life in a Christian manner, etc, most often children will follow suit (or attempt to, that is where guidence comes in)--I think probably 90% of issues could be avoided by ditching the whole "do as I say, not as I do" attitude that many parents seem to have regarding their children.

Someone brought up the "making children stand nose to nose for 5 minutes when they are fighting"---what kind of ludicrous crap is that?? The pearls are really nutters imo---how the HECK would that EVER fly in the real world?---and, our goal as parents (among others) is to prepare our children for the world isn't it?....See, I would consider that in reality when you are arguing with someone or you are mad at them, no way is ANYONE going to make you stand nose to nose, or even talk to eachother, or anything, so I would modify my parenting skills more toward that---firstly teaching my child that you CAN and SHOULD remove yourself from a situation where someone is hurting you or your feelings...secondly, I would validate everyone's feelings and *attempt* and *guide* them towards resolution, which more often than not happens---but this nose to nose crap is only a fraction of what gets me about people like the Pearls...could you see your boss doing that if you and a co-worker disagreed??

Obviously, children have not mastered adult-like behavior, that is where the guidence and teaching and gentle discipline comes in etc, but to me, implementing foolish, harmful, ridiculous "techniques" like flicking, spanking, nose to nose, standing in a corner, stuff that in an adult world would NEVER fly...is not preparing them in any way for the eventuality that they are going to face, which is leaving your home and going into the world...