"To Train Up a Child"... - Page 11

[annettemarie]

Originally Posted by monkey's mom

OT--

I find it ironic how frequently people who are pro-spanking/on-the-fence-spanking/non-GD get all riled up about how the mean old mommies in GD aren't gentle with them.

:LOL

I'm out- sorry mamas.

Since "being nice" only applies to us and not Kati, I'm not beating my head against a brick wall anymore.

[DebraBaker]

I don't think it's an issue of not being nice to Kati.

No one has been unnice to Kati.

I am a fierce opponant of child abuse (especially child abuse in G-d's Name) and I have fiercely opposed any justification of such abuse without personally attacking anyone (including Kati) I have personally attacked the Pearls....with their own words!!!!

That Kati *feels* attacked is because she's playing Devil's Advocate to those who espouse such beliefs.

Since no one is attacking Kati perhaps she should wonder just how horrible is the position she is defending.

Debra Baker

[bamamom]

I'm back guys and I appreciate all your sympathy and understanding for my situation a couple of days ago.

[kchoffmann]

Kateana, I hope you are still here.

Just want to emphasize, before this thread goes quiet, it is a behavioral fact (coming from a behaviorally trained therapist) that when you hit a child for doing something wrong, the child will avoid YOU, not the thing they did wrong. This has been borne out in research again and again. So, even if you can't agree on the issue of whether spanking can ever be a loving act, you might agree that it is simply not effective.

Oh, and RubyV, thank you for your comments about the SAHM. Few people understand that the SAHM icon is a culturally created creature that bolsters our patriarchial economy. Don't get me wrong, I am quite supportive of SAHMs. But people are people, and some are most fulfilled when home full-time with their kids, while others are most fulfilled when able to exercise various interests beyond their children. Why is it OK for a father to have interests beyond his children, but for a woman this makes her a bad parent or someone who should never have had children? I want my child to see me doing what I need to do to feel whole, so he will both do this for himself someday and seek out others who do too.

[LizD]

kchoffmann, thanks for expressing my thoughts on respect for mothers who work "outside the home" so much better and more patiently than I could have.

Also, to be clear, there have been studies the findings of which have "shown" that children of 2-parent families "do better" in various ways. I don't believe that's the case, but there have indeed been studies showing support for children who do not attend institutionalized day care and for children being raised in two-parent homes. Again, I don't think the SAHM situation is ideal, myself; our culture should support women being able to be more than mothers and housewives while still doing both those things, just as men should be able to have careers, families and homes to care for and enjoy.

Again, the forum guidelines very clearly state that corporal punishment is not viewed as acceptable, ever, on MDC. Just as discussion about the religious aspects of circumcision are directed to the religious studies forum, because the circumcision forum is *against* circumcision. Just as CIO as a sleep-training method will not get support on Family Bed!

Someone lent me a book called Whole Child/Whole Parent. Not my kind of thing, but full of biblical quotes and all about respecting the child and so on. For those who need support for not hitting their children in a religious context it might be helpful, perhaps.

[Cutie Patootie]

So I actually had not ever read the pearls book, nor did I ever intend to, but last night I downloaded the first chapter and read it together with my husband. I was so sickened and upset that I could not go to sleep. I stayed up until 5:30am cleaning and trying to keep myself occupied. I feel like my conscience and my heart have been seered reading such hateful and cruel acts toward our most precious possessions. I am crying now as I write this. Among the horrid things that I cannot get out of my mind is the story of their 5 month old dd who had learned to crawl and climb stairs very early. They allowed her to continually try to climb the stairs so that they could "switch her bair legs" over and over...even they stated that she was too young to understand the what was happening. For goodness sake, why not put up a gate. I shutter to think what our God thinks about these things. You cannot support part of this teaching and these people. You simply cannot...even supporting a small part is supporting the whole.
We just got a new puppy...and I found that it is no longer acceptable to house train your dog by striking them with a newspaper and rubbing their nose in their mess. Ask any veterinarian and they will tell you that this is not only abusive, but demeaning and damaging to the dog. Why then is it okay for children? I just can't understand. My only consolation and comfort is that they will be judged for their actions.
If you are truly interested in what God says about spanking and beating then you will study out the exact text and find the real meaning that was written in the original language and text. Find a good Bible that translates back to the original text and wording. Search online for everything you can. Your objective being to parent your child in a way that is pleasing and right to God, not to the mothers here on MDC, what your parents did with you,or anywhere else. Do not take others word for it, but study it out yourself and come to your own convictions. Try http://www.gentlemothering.com/ for advice and help from others Christian mamas who believe in GD. Also, here is a Biblical study on the "rod" scriptures to get you started if you have not found it yet.

I understand what you are saying about developing, etc... but if they are learning by doing all of this, how is it that they are unable to learn *not* to do them (ex: throwing stuff, etc)? (And not necessarily by flicking, but maybe something else, IDK.) Most babies, at a young age, make throwing things a game, and I can see that, b/c they obviously think it's funny... YK?

I redirect, redirect, redirect. I have been doing it since ds was tiny. When he started to throw his toys. I would simply say very lovingly, "your cars are not for throwing, they are for driving around...brooom broooom, balls are for throwing"(hand him a ball)..."chalk is not for eating, it's for making pretty pictures on the chalkboard"..."gentle to mama(and I take his hand and rub it gently on me". In the absolute rarest situation where he is throwing something and not stopping... I take it away and say again, "cars are not for throwing...balls are for throwing" and I hand him a ball. I keep the car for a couple of minutes and then give it right back. He is too little to understand taking something any longer than that, and by giving it back within a few minutes he remembers why it was taken away.
For the record, I was raised in a Christian household...spanked a lot bare-bottom with a belt, and also sexually molested by my father from the age of 6 to 13(I know I never told anyone because we were taught that our opinion didn't count for anything and that you never disagreed with your parents or other adults...they are always right, and you are a lesser person in their eyes). By todays mainstream standards we were not physically abused by the spankings we received ). Even still, I know how hard it is to feel those feelings that what your parents did was wrong and destructive...and I'm not even talking about the sexual stuff.
Again if you are truly interested in what God has to say about all this, try your very best to figure it out...put your emotions, anxieties, and hurts aside and you will find the truth. "When you know better, you do better."

[our veggie baby]

OurVeggieBaby: You are a different breed of Christian than I've encountered before.

Well, I venture to say that was an insult, though I don't see how standing up for defenseless children and confronting someone who defends what I percieve to be brutal, abusive, sadistic acts towards children is being "unChristian".

I am sorry if you feel being a Christian means openly accepting any person or behavior with kindess and love despite knowing in your heart that the person's behaviors and beliefs directly cause another pain both physically and emotionally.
I don't believe I ever called YOU any names directly or insulted your parents personally at all. I did however, say that I feel ANYONE, not specifically you, but ANYONE, even if it were my own Grandmother, advocated the things I percieve you to be defending--- "throwing a child who can't swim in a pond isn't child abuse" etc...has a sadistic, controlling side that kind of scares me.
The truth sometimes hurts, that is how I feel and I won't apologize for it.

If you read any of my other posts, I have no problem being kind and accepting towards someone who previously spanked and is coming here for help, or who desires to stop etc...and while I have said time and again I am glad you are here seeking out information, it is hard to have any sympathy for someone who I feel has defended the actions of the Pearls repeatedly, people who I believe are committing and advocating crimes against children as we speak. If you consider that unChristian type behavior, well, again, that is an issue you need to explore, not me.

I don't know about the God you worship, but the one I worship doesn't advocate or support atrocities commited toward children. The God I worship allows me the benefit of an opinion and even allows me the emotion of anger and hurt when I see someone advocating the abuse of children. Yes, I heard you when you said you wouldn't do many of the things the Pearls advocate and thank God for that, but on the other hand, I have seen you defend their actions repeatedly, denying it is abuse, defending you Father's actions of spanking and claiming he did it out of "love" etc, and I don't find that acceptable. That is my right. You don't have to agree with me, that is completely up to you.

I am truly sorry that the things that have been said on this thread have upset you, it never makes me happy to know that someone may have been hurt by something I said, but on the other hand, I venture to say a lot of your upsetment has nothing to do with this board. I venture to say that while this thread was a catalyst, that there are deeper issues you are coming to terms with, the knowledge deep down that you were hurt as a child as a result of the "spankings" you recieved and it is hard to come to terms with the fact that someone can love you as much as your family and still hurt you. I went through a similar process myself. I am not being condescending, that is what I feel is the root of your upsetment personally, but hey, I could be wrong, goodness knows I am certainly not perfect.

Let me clarify that I don't believe anyone treated you with disrespect or oput of anger because you came here seeking information, or a new perspective, or you wanted to learn about GD...as far as I have EVER seen, almost EVERYONE has treated people who seek out the GD board with kindess and respect, even if the person has admitted to spanking, being spanked as a child, skepticism of GD etc---but I believe the line was crossed and the upsetment aimed towards you began and continued when you continuosly defended the Pearls, your parents, spanking, VERY non-GD-like "discipline"....and seemed to be very willing to debate that your way/your parents way "worked" etc...

So again, I hope for your sake and for your child's, you will continue to come here and read and post on the GD board, as I think it could do you a world of good (it has me)....but to insult my belief system based on my very justified defense towards children and the people who abuse and hurt them and those who defend those people, is coimpletely ludicrious. I am not bound by God to protect your feelings, I am sorry, but that is the truth. Would it have pleased God had I been a bit more gentle towards you? Probably, but I am under no obligation to treat you with kid gloves, as I don't believe my posts broke any MDC rules of conduct.

Take care.