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"To Train Up a Child"... - Page 3

post #41 of 207
It is against the rules of this board to advocate physically punishing children. No one should have to avoid reading that here--it is not allowed to be here. Please check the forum guidelines if you have question about this.

Please continue to pose GD questions, though! Lots of very wise mamas here!

Thanks.
post #42 of 207
Kateana,
When I mentioned the other poster in my above post I did not mean you, it was another forum. I am glad you are posting I don't think shutting down communication is a good way to problem solve and I like that you are open to hearing a view that is different than your own
post #43 of 207
Well, what the heck- I'm in!

First of all, you cannot sanctify your children. You cannot beat the sin out of them, lecture the sin out of them, flick the sin out of them, or even love the sin out of them. They are who they are, and it's not a parents job to change that.

Second, how does God parent us? He does not beat us up until we agree to do what he says- that choice is always left to us. There are consequences if we choose wrong things, the ultimate consequence being hell, I suppose, but the choosing is always up to us. He does not force us to obey him.

Third, God has never commanded that we obey him unquestioningly. What did Mary say when the angel appeared to her? She wanted an explanation! How can this be, since I have not known man. God explains. God gives second chances. God forgives. God does not set us up to fail and then smack us when we do. God does not do this:
Quote:
Place an appealing object where they can reach it, maybe in a "No-no" corner or on an apple juice table (That's where the coffee table once sat). When they spy it and make a dive for it, in a calm voice say, "No, don't touch it." They will already be familiar with the "No," so they will pause, look at you in wonder and then turn around and grab it. Switch their hand once and simultaneously say, "No." Remember, you are not disciplining, you are training. One spat with a little switch is enough
As for this:
Quote:
Mankind was created in perfect communion with God, but Adam and Eve disobeyed, and now we are all in need of reconciliation. (I don't pretend to know or understand the whole explanation for how sin was transfered from Adam to us, but that's what the Bible says, and therefore the Pearls.) They say that until a child is able to make that reconciliation themselves, parents are responsible for being their conscience. It seems logical enough: we can't expect kids to do what is right naturally, on their own, until they have been taught how and why. (If you really need an example: candy.)
it's a load of tripe. There is only one person who can reconcile us to God, and that is Jesus Christ. Show me in Scripture where it says a parent is a child's conscience. You can't because it's not there.

The Pearls compare children to dogs.
They compare them to horses.
They compare them to mules.

The Pearls are not sharing the gospel according to Christ, they are preaching the gosepl of BF Skinner.

Kateana, welcome to Mothering.com. I hope you find here what you are looking for. However, you will not go far if you insist on defending the Pearls.
post #44 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by DebraBaker
If my siblings were being subjected to the Pearls' teaching I would be actively working on getting them removed from their home and into my protective care.

There is nothing you can say in defense of this teaching.

I don't give a rat's ass whether the children are turning out ok. How do you measure ok? They are pleasent? Do they have a choice???

In fact the first thing I noticed about this teaching is they advocate you *provoke* an altercation of wills between the parent and toddler if no event takes place during the course of the day. They actually teach parents to set up an event that will end up with the child ignoring the voice of the parent, be beaten, and finally pass the artificially induced test of wills (if you read the book it is in there!!!!)

This defies the Scriptural injunction against parents provoking their children.

In other words, they disobey Scripture to acheive their ung-dly ends.

If someone is following the advice found in the Pearls' books they are violating civil law and could have their children removed from their homes. I am no fan of cps but this is one case where they are needed. If my sisters or brothers (or even grandchildren) were being treated to the abuse the Pearls advocate I would be in sin if I didn't intervene.

Sorry for the strong words but I sincerely believe they are warrented.

Debra Baker
Yes, my sisters have plenty of options when it comes to displaying their feelings. If they didn't, I would be concerned. Like I have said, the Pearls' teaching CAN be dangerous in some hands, but not necessarily in all hands.

The Bible says to not provoke your children unto anger. I suppose if the Pearls' "training sessions" made the children angry, that would be true. Regardless, I agree with you about provokation, b/c kids present plenty of opportunity for "training" without it.

While there is probably nothing I can say to you in defense of this teaching, there is still plenty to say. I don't expect us to agree completely, but I thank you for taking the time to let me know what you think.

One thing I realized while reading other posts last night... my sisters get spanked less often than a lot of kids who are "accidentally" spanked by their parents on this board. And it seems that if a parent who is committed to never spanking, spanks... it would be out of anger, and out of control. Which really saddens me, and would also make me want to call CPS on them. So I guess that puts us somewhere on the same page...
post #45 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kateana
First of all, I want to say that I am sorry, but I don't know how to reply to more than one post at a time using the "quote" thingie...



I understand what you are saying re: science, and evolution, etc., but you can probably guess that I don't come from that POV. But by "smart", I would mean given the ability to choose.

The phone not being dangerous is the whole point. If a child will listen to you on small things, you can trust them to listen with big things. I would be interested in seeing the studies you are talking about. In my experience, kids will learn that the only reason they can't touch something is b/c it's out of reach (using that method). Personally, that would make me try harder to reach something. Or, at least, that is what I'd like to teach my kids: if something seems hard, try harder. (BTW, I am really not trying to argue or convince anyone here, I'm just trying to sort this out, and I'm hoping you'll help me.)

I am glad your DC has a healthy fear of the road (and I am sorry for your experience), but how and when did the healthy fear happen? Did you have a discussion with her or was this before she was able to understand...? Maybe the road thing was a bad example, b/c I am sure I would never leave my DC anywhere near the road...

I would also not want my DC to unquestioningly obey any person, ever. However, I do want to teach my DC to obey God unquestioningly. As Creator, I believe that He knows what's best for us, always.

I am definitely up for looking for other ways to teach this to my DC without flicking or spanking, which is why I am here. I thank you for being nice while giving me your POV.

I'm with you on the Pope. It makes me cringe (but not offended) when people automatically think I am Catholic b/c I am "religious". Yuck. Also, if ANYone came near my DC to discipline him/her, I would freak out on them.
I forgot to mention that I am catholic- so the pope is a real example for me. I was just meaning to illustrate that I don't beleive any religious authority figure has my child's interest at heart more than I do. (BTW- catholics are not bad people, and there are all kinds of catholics- most of whom don't carry around incense, drink whisky and clutch rosaries all day like they do in the movies.)

As for the car thing- I did the method advocated by the Sears' in that I made a BIG deal about the road and would make a sharp sound when dd looked like she was heading that way- a sound that let her know I was scared.

Granted, during the trying twos dd once or twice chose to stand in the road just to "get my goat"- ie knowing it was "wrong" but wanting to see what I'd do. In those instances I just picked her up and dragged her out of the road. I don't take her defiance personally or make a big deal out of it. When it comes up it's usually a phase and if I keep a steady course in what I allow and don't, it generally blows over. I figured "some days she needs my help to make the right decisions." As she is getting closer to three the "No!" is replaced more and more with "Sure mom."

When I meant- put it out of reach, I meant "out of sight." Sorry for the confusion.

Anyway- I generally don't like to argue religious points, because I'm not religious in the fundamentalist or evangelical sense. I just think that hitting children is the last vestige of the type of hierarchy that allows hitting servants and wives. I know my husband wouldn't THINK of hitting me- and I think that children deserve the same rights and respect as other people.

and besides- it's not OK to hit people.
post #46 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kateana
Like I have said, the Pearls' teaching CAN be dangerous in some hands, but not necessarily in all hands.
These people are advocating hitting babies under the age of one year old with a whip. How in the name of all that is holy is that not 100% dangerous advice??

I'm sure there's some stuff in the neo-nazi literature that could be OK too, but given the OVERALL SCOPE of their message, I certainly wouldn't defend or advocate their teachings or actions.
post #47 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by our veggie baby
I completely agree...coming from a Christian, it is completely NOT imo how God intended children to be guided, taught, etc...people will L O V E to throw scripture aorund, usually out of context, OLD testament text that has nothing to do with Jesus Christ (isn't he the one CHRISTians are meant to be following anyway?)...then smugly sit back and use their alleged "Godliness" to justify sadistic acts such as hitting a defenseless child.

It absolutely sickens me. I was hit as a child, not severely "abused" but hit, and hit a lot nonetheless. I still love my parents and am close with my Mother, but boy did I have A L O T of resentment until pretty recently (I am 27)....I have control issues (as in, NO ONE can "control" me even if it is only my warped perception)...I had discipline issues as a teenager, trust issues, etc and the like....

I hate, absolutely H A T E when people make statements like "I was hit (or hit my kids) and they turned out fine"...please tell me what the H*LL fine means???? There are people who survived Nazi concentration camps who are "fine"....there are women who have been brutally raped who are "fine"...there are children who are severely beat and tortured who turn out "fine....there are people who see their whole families murdered in places like Sudan who turn out "fine".....
Of course all of these people probably have deep seeded emotional issues that will last a lifetime and everything that goes along with it, but they are "fine" in terms of most of them can hold jobs, obey the law, have friends, carry on with their lives the best they can...but are they "fine"?

Please don't mistake me, I am in no way comparing myself to a concentration camp victim or anything of the like, I am merely saying, these people who claim they were hit or that they hit their kids and their kids turn out "fine"...you really don't have any idea of that do you? Just because they aren't robbing 7-11s or whatever doesn't mean they are fine. I know I wasn't "fine" for a long time, even though all outward appearances would seem that I was.

Anyway, people who advocate hitting of any kind on a child to me have a sadistic, controlling side and it is hard for me to be close to them in any capacity. That may sound harsh, as I do believe many parents who "spank" are decent people who love their children and want to do the best by them...but we all kow the road to hell is paved with good intentions isn't it?

I have a bumper sticker I love. It simply says: The Christian right is neither.

Live your life how JESUS CHRIST (Christ being the root word of Christian after all) wanted us to live if you claim to be so Christian. That is what I try to do, I am by no means perfect, but I do know enough to know Jesus never slapped anyone around.
I absolutely agree that to be a Christian literally means to be Christ-like. However, Jesus Himself said that he came to fulfill the Law, not that the OT was now useless. So I guess I would like to reconcile how Jesus would treat children (you are right about not slapping anyone around!), with other passages.

I think it's fair to say that there are a lot of "fine" and "not fine" kids in both the GD and spanking camps. It seems to me that spanking may not be the difference between "fine and not fine."

I also try to live as Christ did, and would want me to today, which is why I am here trying to figure this out.

One of my favorite bumper stickers is: Lord, protect me from your followers. It is so sad and true.
post #48 of 207
I completely agree. I am happy that you are seeking out other ways to discipline and hopefully you will learn a lot of alternative, more effective (imo) ways to do that here, however, the previous poster is right about the Pearls. I wouldn't even treat my dog the way they advocate treating children. I don't believe you "train" a child, so that is their first mistake. You guide a child, teach a child, protect a child, love a child--training is more for animals and don't even get me started on that either as I am a staunch animal rights activist yet I digress...

See, the first step in my humble opinion, is seeing children as people. It is funny to me actually (in a sad way) that we finally for the most part, see African Americans as people instead of animals who needed to be controlled, whipped, owned etc...we finally (for the most part) see women as people who have the right to exsist, to have a voice, to have a right to an opinion--where as recent as 100 years ago that wasn't the case....one of the last frontiers is seeing children as actual people and not as property or as little sinful troublemakers who are trying to make our lives difficult. To actually see them as little people who want all the same things we do--love, understanding, guidence, a voice, an opinion, an important place to belong...and DESERVE the same things we do--not to be yelled at or hit, or shamed, or to be controlled like some second class citizens...

Yes, we do have a greater responsibility as their parents to guide them, lead them, gently steer them towards being compassionate, productive, well adjusted, happy people...but please do tell me how we are to achieve that by acting in manners which are punishing, unproductive, unhealthy, shaming, controlling...it just doesn't make sense.
Yes, there is the option of instilling fear in your children, which to me is not a viable one for several reasons. One being that it is unhealthy emotionally and can damage them far into adulthood. Two being that one day they won't be scared of you and that is where ALL of the pent up resentment and anger and hurt comes out....among several other things.

We teach our children "treat others as you would like to be treated" and yet many of us do exactly the opposite!!! I mean, as an adult, the hypocritical "do as I say not as I do" attitude bugs the @#$#@ out of me....and it doesn't fly with children either...they can smell it from a mile away and in one way or another will call you on it (rightfully so)...

I am not saying let your child go completely wild and run the whole house, which is a lot of people's fear when they are not familiar with gentle discipline etc, but you have to come from a place first of all where you know and believe that children AREN'T inherently evil, that 99% of the time, the WANT to please you, WANT to make you happy, WANT to do well...and that is your starting point to guiding them and teaching them....taking every oppurtunity to teach and to learn...

To me the only thing "techniques" like spanking and the like teach is that mommy and daddy hurt you when you are not acting "right"...
post #49 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by annettemarie
Well, what the heck- I'm in!
The Pearls compare children to dogs.
They compare them to horses.
They compare them to mules.

The Pearls are not sharing the gospel according to Christ, they are preaching the gosepl of BF Skinner.
Totally!
post #50 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by atomicmama
BURN IT!!!!!
Yes!!!
post #51 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by DebraBaker
But when parents force their children to obey them immediately and unconditionally they are ascribing for themselves the place that should only be reserved for G-d.

If a child is in such a family and he sees his parents and, as he grows up, notices that the parents are not perfect and did not deserve that unconditional obedience they may start to doubt G=d as well.

Children are apprentices, they are learning.

Also, the scriptures tell children to obey their parents but nowhere does it tell parents to force their children to obey. The companion verse to the parents is to not provoke your children (the very one the Pearls are not obeying in their teachings.)

Debra Baker
I see what you are saying about parents being in a place reserved for God... but aren't we as parents, in a way, in that position? We give them life, teach them, protect and provide for them, and above all, *love* them...? Even without expecting obedience, we are kindof put in that position.

And from what I have seen, people doubt God no matter what kind of home or family they grow up in. It is part of the human journey...

I believe that humans are apprentices, and always learning. At least, I hope we are always learning... I feel for most of the country that has turned off their brains. :
post #52 of 207
I thought about this based on another thread, but didn't say it, and I think it's worth mentioning:

Kids like to have limits and know their boundaries.

some parents who use spanking or other methods we may not agree with do provide children with this.

some parents who spank don't give kids clear boundaries.

Clearly, a child in the first family is better off than in the second- provided that the parents are in general kind, understanding, loving, etc.

In that respect, some parents who spank end up doing an overall OK job.

However, in my mind that does not justify spanking- which i think is wrong.

Also, it does not justify the Pearls' book, which suggests some very cruel things.

I guess I'm trying to make a distinction between the parents who spank and the action of spanking.
post #53 of 207
I just would like to say quickly that the end result is not necessarily the goal in parenting. It would be nice if we could measure our success as parents by how well our children turn out, but we can't. There are plenty of horrible parents out there whose kids manage to become well adjusted adults in spite of them, and there are also plenty of great parents whose kids end up in drug rehab or prison. Parenting is not a results oriented undertaking in many ways, unfortunately. It is much more about the process, about how you do things, and the lessons you teach in the little things that make up your days. If you are coming from a philosophy of kindness, respect and cooperation, your actions will reflect that. If your POV is one of control and domination, your actions will bear that out also. All we can do is guide, instruct and model. Our kids will choose their own path.
post #54 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by our veggie baby
Personally, blind compliance is a VERY dangerous thing to teach a child imo...if they blindly obey you, what stops them from blindly obeying anyone else?

There is no way to prove this of course, but it would be my educated guess that more children get abducted, abused (and don't tell), hurt, peer pressured into drugs, sex, whatever else as teens---who are taught to be "polite" and blindly obey every adult, than children who learn a healthy sense of questioning and skepticism about things---which is learned (imo) when you teach your children to "behave" by example and effective, positive discipline rather than an "obey or else" type situation...

I dunno, I am all about teaching by example...if a child can recite the whole freaking Dora show line by line, SURELY you can agree they are watching us like hawks and wanting to imitate what we do...so if you live your life in a Christian manner, etc, most often children will follow suit (or attempt to, that is where guidence comes in)--I think probably 90% of issues could be avoided by ditching the whole "do as I say, not as I do" attitude that many parents seem to have regarding their children.

Someone brought up the "making children stand nose to nose for 5 minutes when they are fighting"---what kind of ludicrous crap is that?? The pearls are really nutters imo---how the HECK would that EVER fly in the real world?---and, our goal as parents (among others) is to prepare our children for the world isn't it?....See, I would consider that in reality when you are arguing with someone or you are mad at them, no way is ANYONE going to make you stand nose to nose, or even talk to eachother, or anything, so I would modify my parenting skills more toward that---firstly teaching my child that you CAN and SHOULD remove yourself from a situation where someone is hurting you or your feelings...secondly, I would validate everyone's feelings and *attempt* and *guide* them towards resolution, which more often than not happens---but this nose to nose crap is only a fraction of what gets me about people like the Pearls...could you see your boss doing that if you and a co-worker disagreed??

Obviously, children have not mastered adult-like behavior, that is where the guidence and teaching and gentle discipline comes in etc, but to me, implementing foolish, harmful, ridiculous "techniques" like flicking, spanking, nose to nose, standing in a corner, stuff that in an adult world would NEVER fly...is not preparing them in any way for the eventuality that they are going to face, which is leaving your home and going into the world...
One thing that really bothers me about the way my parents are raising my sisters, is how they force the youngest one to come to me when she doesn't want to (I am married, and obviously not living with them, so she's probably very confused that I claim to be her sister ). He is teaching her to obey every adult, rather than just her parents. That's overboard, IMO, b/c, as you say, who is to say that some freak won't try to take her! I don't remember that part being in the Pearls' book, but I do know it's a part of some other stuff my parents subscribe to. Oh, well. I trust God to pick up where my parents leave off... He will protect them...

I am so with you on living by example... I think that is the best way, for sure. And kids are SO much more observant than we give them credit for, sometimes, much to our embarassment.

It's funny to me that you would get so upset about the nose-to-nose thing. I thought it was a great alternative to a time out or whatever. But I'll explain: Obviously, if a sibling is being hurtful, that is a different story (or, I thought it would be obvious). But a more innocent argument (maybe territorial, or "you can't play with me" situation) could very well be handled this way. It isn't harmful or mean, and kids can come away from it with a better attitude, maybe even foretting why they were fighting in the first place. It seems like a peaceful lesson, at worst.

Sigh. If you and a co-worker didn't get along, would you expect your boss to say, "that's ok, just don't come in to work anymore" or even, "you can move your cubicle"? No... you would probably be expected to share your workspace as usual, and either deal with it, or work it out on your own.

I think a lot of times, kids get really bored hearing all the explanations we think they need to hear (I know I did as a kid), and would so much more appreciate a creative lesson instead. I know I would never say to a sibling: "Remember that meaningful lecture mom gave us? It was so helpful." But would more likely say something like: "Remember the time we had to stand nose-to-nose for fighting? Your breath stunk so bad. They should have been teaching you to bush your teeth instead."

Need I mention that kids do a lot of things that would never fly in the adult world? Like bouncing all around in their chair at the DR table? I crack up all the time when I see a kid doing kid stuff, and try to imagine an adult doing it. They are so hilarious, and I think they appreciate a sense of humor from adults, too.
post #55 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by monkey's mom
It is against the rules of this board to advocate physically punishing children. No one should have to avoid reading that here--it is not allowed to be here. Please check the forum guidelines if you have question about this.

Please continue to pose GD questions, though! Lots of very wise mamas here!

Thanks.
I read the rules before I posted. I didn't read that I can only post my opinion if it is exactly the same as everyone else's. If someone *really* cannot tolerate me exploring this issue, then I suggest they pursue having me removed from the forum.

I also thought that this would be a good place to have the issue addressed, since this is the only place I know of where people are (supposedly) free to discuss this issue and learn more. As you can tell from my posts, I am fairly ignorant on GDing, and that is why I am here.
post #56 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kateana
I trust God to pick up where my parents leave off... He will protect them...
I know you are probably feeling like we are all ganging up on you, but surely you know there are many children, Christian and non-Christian alike, who are abducted and abused and worse every day? Did God not want to protect those chldren? Being Christian does not mean nothing bad will ever happen to you.

About the nose-to-nose thing... what I don't like about it is it's an invasion of the child's physical space. Forced physical contact is not respectful. In "Kids Are Worth It" (a great book to read if you are interested in learning more about GD, BTW), the author describes a similar method where the fighting kids have to sit on the couch together, and neither of them can get up until they both have given each other permission to. IMO this is a better approach because it gives the kids more power over their own fate and allows them to determine when the problem is resolved, instead of the more punitive way of having them stand nose to nose until you say they can stop.
post #57 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prajnamommy
Kateana,
When I mentioned the other poster in my above post I did not mean you, it was another forum. I am glad you are posting I don't think shutting down communication is a good way to problem solve and I like that you are open to hearing a view that is different than your own
No problem...
post #58 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kateana
I read the rules before I posted. I didn't read that I can only post my opinion if it is exactly the same as everyone else's. If someone *really* cannot tolerate me exploring this issue, then I suggest they pursue having me removed from the forum.\
Really? The you saw this:
Quote:
Welcome to Gentle Discipline. This forum has a specific aim: to help parents learn and apply gentle discipline methods in raising their children.

Quote:
Quote:
Effective discipline is based on loving guidance. It is based on the belief that children are born innately good and that our role as parents is to nurture their spirits as they learn about limits and boundaries, rather than to curb their tendencies toward wrongdoing. Effective discipline presumes that children have reasons for their behavior and that cooperation can be engaged to solve shared problems.
Hitting is never the best way to teach a child. Even in the case of real danger - as when a child runs out into the road - you can grab him, sit him down, look him in the eyes, and tell him why he must never do that again. The panic in your voice will communicate your message much more effectively than any spanking. You can be dramatic without being abusive.

'Natural Family Living' by Peggy O'Mara


Please appreciate that this forum is not a place to uphold or advocate physical punishment of children. Personal preferences for and encouragement of use of physical punishment are inappropriately posted here. Posts of that nature will be edited by the member upon request or will be removed.

Please feel free to discuss your problems and needs with the intent to learn more about Gentle Discipline.
post #59 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by annettemarie
Well, what the heck- I'm in!

First of all, you cannot sanctify your children. You cannot beat the sin out of them, lecture the sin out of them, flick the sin out of them, or even love the sin out of them. They are who they are, and it's not a parents job to change that.

Second, how does God parent us? He does not beat us up until we agree to do what he says- that choice is always left to us. There are consequences if we choose wrong things, the ultimate consequence being hell, I suppose, but the choosing is always up to us. He does not force us to obey him.

Third, God has never commanded that we obey him unquestioningly. What did Mary say when the angel appeared to her? She wanted an explanation! How can this be, since I have not known man. God explains. God gives second chances. God forgives. God does not set us up to fail and then smack us when we do. God does not do this:


As for this:

it's a load of tripe. There is only one person who can reconcile us to God, and that is Jesus Christ. Show me in Scripture where it says a parent is a child's conscience. You can't because it's not there.

The Pearls compare children to dogs.
They compare them to horses.
They compare them to mules.

The Pearls are not sharing the gospel according to Christ, they are preaching the gosepl of BF Skinner.

Kateana, welcome to Mothering.com. I hope you find here what you are looking for. However, you will not go far if you insist on defending the Pearls.
Thank you for the welcome. I do insist on defending my own POV (which is not completely pro-spanking or pro GD or totaolly AP for that matter), and learning from others. I do not have it all figured out, and that is why I like to discuss things with others. So here we go.

You are irght, if we could sactify our children, there would have been no reason for God to send Jesus to die for us.

Sometimes (usually, I think) our consequences are very physical. For example (and this is a real obvious one, I'm sure you've heard before), if we all obeyed God on the premarital sex issue (guilty), there would be no STDs going around. I would consider that a light spanking for disobeying. But that is MO. ANyways, I think God is very concerned with bringing us back to him, lovingly and faithfully. However, love and peace also include justice, and having no consequences for our actions would be unjust, and therefore ungodly.

God does not set up temptations, you are right about that.

Ok, saying a parent is the childs' conscience was not a good use of words. But parents are responsible for teaching right and wrong, which is what adults use their conscience for.

I don't know who Skinner is. But that is probably a good thing?

I am looking to find which way of parenting is the most consistent with Christ.
post #60 of 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by mommyofshmoo
I forgot to mention that I am catholic- so the pope is a real example for me. I was just meaning to illustrate that I don't beleive any religious authority figure has my child's interest at heart more than I do. (BTW- catholics are not bad people, and there are all kinds of catholics- most of whom don't carry around incense, drink whisky and clutch rosaries all day like they do in the movies.)

As for the car thing- I did the method advocated by the Sears' in that I made a BIG deal about the road and would make a sharp sound when dd looked like she was heading that way- a sound that let her know I was scared.

Granted, during the trying twos dd once or twice chose to stand in the road just to "get my goat"- ie knowing it was "wrong" but wanting to see what I'd do. In those instances I just picked her up and dragged her out of the road. I don't take her defiance personally or make a big deal out of it. When it comes up it's usually a phase and if I keep a steady course in what I allow and don't, it generally blows over. I figured "some days she needs my help to make the right decisions." As she is getting closer to three the "No!" is replaced more and more with "Sure mom."

When I meant- put it out of reach, I meant "out of sight." Sorry for the confusion.

Anyway- I generally don't like to argue religious points, because I'm not religious in the fundamentalist or evangelical sense. I just think that hitting children is the last vestige of the type of hierarchy that allows hitting servants and wives. I know my husband wouldn't THINK of hitting me- and I think that children deserve the same rights and respect as other people.

and besides- it's not OK to hit people.
You are too funny reholics.

I recently bought the Sears' discipline book, I can't wait to read it...

I find it funny (odd, not haha) that I am on this side of this argument, b/c I am the biggest friggin peacenic I know (I know you wouldn't believe it, but it's true). I think me having a pro-spanking view is probably just residual from when I was growing up, and yet another view of my parents' that I have yet to shed... And I hope that more GDing Christians decide to get involved in this discussion, too, b/c I would like to hear more specifics about what the Bible says, and how to reolve the apparent conflicts between "spare the rod" and the Life of Jesus...
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