Time out -- on mat?

[Averys_mom]

My dh said he saw the Super Nanny on Oprah the other week and she suggested a kind of time out on a mat for misbehaviour. She suggested one minute on the mat for every year old that the child is (ie: two minute TO for a two year old).

Right now we distract and substitute, redirect and have a "yes" envrionment as much as possible. Still, there are times when I need something more firm for my 17 mo old. We're very AP, and I'm opposed to physical punishment (no hand slapping or spanking).

What do you think of this mat idea?

[sistermama]

I use a time out mat for my 2.5 year old and it works pretty well for me - I use it only for very specific things. I'm not sure how well it would have worked when he was 17 months old. I don't use it like they do on SuperNanny, for every single 'infraction'. I use it for one or two behaviors that are currently driving me crazy.

Right now I am having major problems keeping ds out of the fridge. He can operate every baby lock I've found for it and I'm not willing to drill into my fridge in order to install a padlock. So now, if he opens the fridge he goes to a timeout on the mat. I keep my attitude very matter of fact and just say something like, "You may not go in the fridge. When you go in the fridge, you will have a time out on the mat." I have a timer that I set for two minutes, and when it is up he comes and finds me and we have a quick talk. I have used this method to get rid of other undesireable behaviors like: kicking, playing in the toilet, etc.

[diane1969]

We basically use time out only for physical abuse - like my 3 yo kicking/smacking her 17 mo brother. We mostly redirect, distract for most of the usualy "naughty" behavior.

We probably started it when she was over 2, maybe 2.5? I have a 17 mo, and in my opinion, he is too young for time out.

EDA: Hey! I just noticed they are born on the same day!!! Cool.

[annettemarie]

What I don't like about time out on a mat or a chair or a stool is that you are taking a very physical being (a child) and asking them to go against all natural inclinations and sit still. I don't think they necessarily even consciously try to "disobey;" I think it's just the nature of the beast. If we do a time out, we give a time out circle or space (a whole room or the sofa) so that we aren't setting them up for failure when they have to squirm.
Annette

[foreverinbluejeans]

Time outs (or grounding for older kids) don't teach good behavior. At best, they stop bad behavior. Even if you wanted to use time outs, a 17 month old would be too young.

Now is the time to READ, READ, READ from books that promote gentle discipline. In general, avoid time outs and rewards (for expected behavior). I recommend anything written by Elizabeth Crary for parents of toddlers.

Rewards can work for special times. For example, Mom and kids are going to clean garage (a nasty job). When they are done, they go out for frozen yogurt (a special treat).

The two times I have seen the nanny shows, she has used time outs to stop bad behavior in horrid kids with ineffective parents. If you are a skilled parent you should not have to resort to time outs. When dealing with your children, try to imagine how they would feel.

[sistermama]

Originally Posted by foreverinbluejeans

If you are a skilled parent you should not have to resort to time outs.

Wow - that is a very judgemental statement. I think that skilled parents have lots of "tools" in their boxes that they use to teach children appropriate ways to behave. An occasional time out happens to be something that works well for me, as I stated before, to stop innappropriate behavior that has become an ongoing issue.

[our veggie baby]

Seriously with all due respect, I feel that time outs for appropriate things are very okay, and teach children life tools. I mean, in society, what happens to you when you do something wrong? you either get a privledge taken away, or you have a BIG old time out called jail...yes, it is our job to love, nurture, teach, bond, and be soft places for our children to fall, but intertwined in that is the knowledge that someday they will go off on their own and it helps to understand how the world works...

I am not just one of these time out for anything people...like some parents I know will give their child a time out for asking "why" too much or some nonsense... which to me is extreme and is VERY ineffective...and I wouldn't use time out as a first resort either, but as some of the other posters mentioned, if the behavior is continuing, despite talks, redirection, etc and so on, I think time outs can be very effective. I am not saying, lock your child in their room while they scream bloody murder, but I am all for "sweetie, you know we do not open the refrigerator, if you open it once more, you will have to sit on the mat for 3 minutes"...you have given them a choice, and they make it. I don't know if this would be effective under 2 or 3, but surely by 3, children are very aware of cause/reaction....

[monkey's mom]

Great article here: http://www.naturalchild.org/guest/peter_haiman.html

The Case Against Time-Outs by Peter Haiman, Ph.D.

Being placed in time-out prolongs the time that a child must endure the frustrated need that caused their misbehavior. Thus, unmet normal needs become increasingly uncomfortable as the time-out continues. Young children depend upon, want to be with, love, and need their parents.

A serious cost of being given time-out in childhood is the lesson that one should bottle up uncomfortable emotions. Upset in time-out and unable to express distressing feelings, youngsters desperately need to stop the painful feelings going on inside them. To cope, children learn to ignore and/or distract themselves from the energy of their hurt and angry feelings. Thus, children learn to repress their painful feelings. In the process, nervous habits emerge such as thumb sticking, fingernail biting, hair pulling, skin scratching, tugging at clothes, self-pinching, and many other similar behaviors. The purpose of these behaviors is to ward off uncomfortable feelings and, in identification with their parents' criticism of them, to punish themselves. These defense strategies serve to release anger and ignore uncomfortable feelings.

I think time-outs (especially as I've seen on SuperNanny) are far more destructive than most people realize.

[annettemarie]

It seems to me that article is addressing a very specific, very punitive type of time out. Your second quote seems to be assuming that a child is forced to be silent on time out, and is not allowed to share his or her feelings. It also makes the assumption that a child on time out is anathema to the parents, and that the parents will not meet the child's needs.

Could we at least agree on what time out is or isn't before we start attacking each other?

In our family, time out is a "get yourself together" sort of thing.

It might take place in your room, or on my lap, or on a chair while you read a book.

Sometimes we set a timer, and sometimes we let the child decide when they are ready.

When a child is downright nasty to a sibling, it is used as a natural consequence- we love you, and want to be with you, but we won't let you hurt. You can play with us when you are ready to be loving.

ETA: From what I have seen of that Stupid Nanny show, she does use them in a controlling, Pavlovian sort of way

Annette

[our veggie baby]

Seriously, I mean...we are talking 2 minutes here...2 minutes...

We can talk about feelings, before, after, heck, even during if you like, unless you are out of control...2 minutes here...not locking your child in their room in the dark for an hour...

With all due respect, I know everyone is coming from the best of intentions here and I am not trying to insult anyone, ultimately, you will do what you feel is best for your child, I will do what I feel is best for mine...
That said, if I can't teach my child that sometimes in our home, during outings, school, work, the world, we need 2 or 3 minutes to cool down before we can adequetely express ourselves, get ahold of ourselves, and remove ourselves from a potentially destructive situation...I feel I am not parenting effectively. That is my opinion. Someone else's may be that time out is going to forever damage their child, that is fair too, based on your assessment.

[monkey's mom]

Originally Posted by annettemarie

It seems to me that article is addressing a very specific, very punitive type of time out. Your second quote seems to be assuming that a child is forced to be silent on time out, and is not allowed to share his or her feelings. It also makes the assumption that a child on time out is anathema to the parents, and that the parents will not meet the child's needs.

The majority of punitive time-outs that I have seen (and also on the show referenced) do not allow the child to express his anger or frustration at being sent off/sat down--that's damaging, in my mind. But further, punitive time-out does not seem to me to meet the goal of finding out the underlying issue regarding the child's behavior. If the kid is hitting b/c he's tired or hungry, putting them in time-out doesn't help that. As someone else said, it can curb negative behavior (as can all punishment), but that's not what I thought gentle discipline is really about.

Originally Posted by annettemarie

Could we at least agree on what time out is or isn't before we start attacking each other?

Is this directed at me? I wasn't attacking anyone, I said I think time-outs are damaging.

Originally Posted by annettemarie

In our family, time out is a "get yourself together" sort of thing.

Ours, too. I've heard it called a 'time-in', and I like that. We take a few minutes to calm down and reconnect and discuss options--but it's always done *together* in a nurturing way. No one is threatened with it, if they don't behave.

Originally Posted by our veggie baby

Seriously, I mean...we are talking 2 minutes here...2 minutes...

Two minutes for a small child to be still or away from parents when they are already in a state of dis-connect or dis-equilibrium is a really, really long time. Plenty long enough for the child to internalize some pretty negative feelings about his caregivers. And certainly long enough to chink away at some of the attachment most of us have worked really hard to establish.

[maya44]

I have no problem with time-outs as in "go away until you can act like a person."

The bottling up thing. Uh, what I see in people I know who don't know how to be alone when they are upset is:

1. Desperately seeking out others to help them feel better

2. Having no idea that they have the power within themeselves to feel better without someone else making it better


3. A person who is generally disliked


I don't think it is nec to set a time limit.

I rarely even had to use time outs. But from having done so my kids definitely learend that they had the power within their own little bodies to calm down and feel better.

[sistermama]

Originally Posted by monkey's mom

Two minutes for a small child to be still or away from parents when they are already in a state of dis-connect or dis-equilibrium is a really, really long time. Plenty long enough for the child to internalize some pretty negative feelings about his caregivers. And certainly long enough to chink away at some of the attachment most of us have worked really hard to establish.

Just because a child is doing something to misbehave (like my previous example of getting into the fridge) doesn't mean that they are in a state of disconnect or dis-equilibrium. I think your statement makes the assumption that the child is in a state of upset when they are in timeout, which, for us anyway, isn't usually the case. My son doesn't like timeout because it is boring and he has to stop what he is doing. But he doesn't sit there thinking negative things about me and harming his little psyche. I think that timeouts, used judiciously, can work well for things that don't have "natural consequences."

[Piglet68]

In our household we choose not to use any forms of punishment. I agree that children need to learn how to calm themselves, but I believe this has to be actively taught by the adults in their lives. Furthermore, it has to be taught in the spirit of empathy, as in "you need help and I'm here to help you", rather than "I'm doing this to you because you did <blank>".

I believe that a child who sees that you are empathetic with their emotions will better follow your instructions or your lead. Particularly when those emotions have led them to behave in extra-challenging ways. I know that my DD *knows* when she has done something wrong, and I believe that she doesn't WANT to do wrong, but that she does so when her emotions get the better of her. I feel my job is to help her learn to either get those emotions under control (deep breathing is our current method of choice) or express them in more constructive or acceptable ways.

[mommyofshmoo]

I really, really, really hate those nanny shows. (And I'm a person who LIKES television.)

These shows take families with totally clueless and ineffectual parents, show the worst moments of the kids behavior, then judge the parents and kids mercilessly. Then this "super" person comes from outside and advises the whole "parents must take CONTROL of their kids" OP party line and then they show the kids behaving well. ICK. - IMO these kids are behaving better because there is SOME SORT of structure to their worlds post-nanny, and not to any specific "method."

That said, I've done time outs- both in arms and in a separate room. It worked OK I suppose at the time, but now it seems to not really be a good tool anymore. what works better now is "take some time to collect yourself and when you're ready come and join us again."

Sometimes dd does better alone during this time, and sometimes she does better if I stay with her. I think she does better when it's untimed.

She's actually starting (at 2.5) to take herself out of a situation where she's angry and spend some times alone pounting and thinking before returning. To me, this is progress. She's starting to respect her own need for alone time to process.

(There are still times when I do the timed thing- but that's when my anger is getting the best of me, and I don't think it solves anything at all for dd.)

Oh- another thing that really works well for younger toddlers is physical direction. This is following through a request by physically helping your child to do it. This worked really well for my dd.

I found when she got into a bad tantrum-y place what she needed from me was to simplify and regimen her life for a few days. Not give her options, but to schedule her and keep her active and focused.

My take home message: "Punishment" doesn't really do anything besides inspire fear- which may or may not effect behavior. All sort of studies show that jail is ineffective at stopping people from breaking laws. "Discipline" should be about showing kids how to deal with their emotions, handle difficult times, be part of a family, and follow directions.

[monkey's mom]

Originally Posted by sistermama

Just because a child is doing something to misbehave (like my previous example of getting into the fridge) doesn't mean that they are in a state of disconnect or dis-equilibrium.

Absolutely--but, again, I think that getting to the bottom of the behavior--the WHY of getting into the fridge is much more valuable than conditioning the child to just stop the behavior. It's like treating the symptom instead of the cause.

Originally Posted by sistermama

I think your statement makes the assumption that the child is in a state of upset when they are in timeout, which, for us anyway, isn't usually the case. My son doesn't like timeout because it is boring and he has to stop what he is doing. But he doesn't sit there thinking negative things about me and harming his little psyche.

I did assume that the child is upset when they are in time-out. I've not experienced anything other, so there is certainly personal bias. I'm just not sure how one can utilize a method of punishment that doesn't result in hard feelings or jeopordize attachment.

I wouldn't presume to know what your child is thinking, but I have read lots of evidence and accounts showing that lots and lots of people experienced negative thoughts and feelings when they were punished and controlled by their parents.

Again, I just think there are other methods we can employ which do a better job of problem-solving and modeling empathy. Teaching children to fulfill their emotional needs by not responding to those needs seems like the exact opposite of attachment parenting.

[diane1969]

I am really irked by these two comments.

Originally Posted by monkey's mom

I have read lots of evidence and accounts showing that lots and lots of people experienced negative thoughts and feelings when they were punished and controlled by their parents.

Like what? I'm ruining my child?? Aren't we all on the Gentle Discipline/Attached Parent forum? You may have visions of us Mothering moms who do give "time outs" as the same firebreathing controlling abusive moms on TV, but I assure you... I, and I'm sure most others here, are not like that.

Originally Posted by foreverinbluejeans

If you are a skilled parent you should not have to resort to time outs.

And this one is just flat out insulting and hurtful.

[Mizelenius]

I don't really get "time outs" with very young children. 17 months old seems EXTREMELY young for a child to understand what is happening.

Now, as a teacher, I did give time outs when there was something physical going on. It gave me a chance to talk to the person who was bothered. Then all of us would have a discussion about what happened (each person got to tell their version). If it was decided that it wasn't a misunderstanding (someone really did something wrong), then the person who was negatively affected could request something from the person who did something wrong . . .sometimes it was an apology, sometimes it was a hug . . .I didn't decide the consequence, the "victim" did. It worked well. Also, we went over different strategies for handling what the problem was to prevent it from happening again. This was crucial because it gave them actual tools for handling emotions, conflicts, etc.

As far as the poster who has problems with her DS going into the fridge, kicking, etc. . . .hmm. I would ask this: with your time-out strategy, is the behavior repeated? If not, then I would say the time-outs work in that case. However, if you DS CONTINUES to go in the fridge, kick, etc., then I think it's ineffective and there must be some other solution.

Sort of a side story about misbehavior . . .my DH is great at fixing things. The other day he fixed a lock and I asked him how he knew how to do it. He said that when he was little, he took all the locks apart in his house. I'm sure his parents were very upset, but had he not done that, our lock would be broken! The book that I love so much talks about how to attribute positive things to what our children do. It doesn't mean we have to accept the behavior, but it helps give positive intent to what they do.

[sistermama]

I don't think that everything children do has an underlying reason that we have to figure out. Why does he get into the fridge? Because it is fun (eggs to crack, things to open), he know he's not supposed to (limit testing), etc. Sometimes children misbehave just to misbehave. I guess we'll just have to disagree, monkey's mom.

[Piglet68]

You know, I think I understand what foreverinbluejeans meant. We have a similar philosophy in horse training "violence begins where knowledge ends". In other words, if you feel that whacking the horse or yanking on the bit is the only way to solve your problem, chances are you need to educate yourself further. Similarly, I find myself tempted often to resort to punishment techniques with my DD (things most people woudl consider pretty mild, but to me it's still punishment). I know when this happens that I need to regroup mentally and emotionally, do some thinking and perhaps reading and more researching...to find the solution that I KNOW is out there. It is an indication that I've run into the limits of my own skills. I'm sure many people have success with timeouts, that doesn't mean they are the only way, or necessarily even the best way. They are just the way that some have found works for them. Since I choose not to use such techniques, I'm forced to keep searching for alternatives.

Anyways, that's how I took the statement by foreverinbluejeans. But I can see how some might find it insulting.