Time out -- on mat? - Page 2

[bethwl]

Originally Posted by monkey's mom

But further, punitive time-out does not seem to me to meet the goal of finding out the underlying issue regarding the child's behavior. If the kid is hitting b/c he's tired or hungry, putting them in time-out doesn't help that. As someone else said, it can curb negative behavior (as can all punishment), but that's not what I thought gentle discipline is really about.

But if the kid is hitting because he's hungry and you realize this and feed him, doesn't he come to understand that when he's hungry and he wants to communicate that, that he can hit? I'm not trying to be argumentative here, I seriously wonder about this.

-Beth
dd Annika 8.9.03

[monkey's mom]

Originally Posted by diane1969

Like what? I'm ruining my child?? Aren't we all on the Gentle Discipline/Attached Parent forum? You may have visions of us Mothering moms who do give "time outs" as the same firebreathing controlling abusive moms on TV, but I assure you... I, and I'm sure most others here, are not like that.

The accounts of people's reactions to punishment and control are out there. They are real. And they are valuable to me. If they aren't valuable to you, don't pay attention to them.

I know how I felt as a child when I was punished and apparantly lots of other people felt similarly. Maybe you felt differently, I don't know. We all come from different places that affect our actions and our parenting.

I never knew that there were alternatives to punishment and control--unless of course you wanted to raise a sociopath or some such. Coming to MDC exposed me to other ways that didn't involve that. So, if someone who has a very young child and is still learning and might be influenced by SuperNanny's methods, comes here and asks if people think time-out on a mat--a la that show is a good idea, I'm going to say, "No. And here's why." Obviously, people have different takes on this. No one said abusive. No one said you, personally. No one said anything about other parents 'ruining' their children.

[monkey's mom]

Originally Posted by bethwl

But if the kid is hitting because he's hungry and you realize this and feed him, doesn't he come to understand that when he's hungry and he wants to communicate that, that he can hit? I'm not trying to be argumentative here, I seriously wonder about this.

No, I get your question. If all you did was stuff food in the kids hand or mouth when he hit, then yes, you could teach them that. But, as I understand it, it's the discipline part of gentle discipline that really involves teaching. So, I would work on getting the immediate problem solved--stop hitting! Tell the child that is not OK, tell them what is OK (gentle touch), and if need be physically redirect or remove them. But, then I would just work on getting the underlying cause fixed--feeding them, nursing them, getting them back to feeling 'human' again. And then figure out how to equip the kid with some solutions for next time--maybe offer food more frequently if they're little, show them how to recognize their bodies' cues and ways they can communicate those needs.

I don't think kids want to hit or feel bad--it's just such a reactionary thing, you know?

[diane1969]

Originally Posted by monkey's mom

The accounts of people's reactions to punishment and control are out there. They are real. And they are valuable to me. If they aren't valuable to you, don't pay attention to them.

I'm sure the data is correct. But I'm almost positive that data points to mainstream punishment and control tactics, which I'm sure is compiled with all the other less than enlightened parenting practices that the child was subject to. NOT children of Gentle Discipline/AP mamas who just happen to use a 'time out' technique once in awhile. Oh... and I don't pay attention to that stuff anyway, I pay attention to my instincts as a mother.

Originally Posted by monkey's mom

I know how I felt as a child when I was punished and apparantly lots of other people felt similarly. Maybe you felt differently, I don't know. We all come from different places that affect our actions and our parenting.

Yep, lucky for my children, I am NOTHING like my parents. I can almost say that if I feel myself acting like my mother, I must be doing something wrong! It's actually a pretty useful tool!

Originally Posted by monkey's mom

No one said anything about other parents 'ruining' their children.

But that is what your statement implied, and that's why I pointed it out.

[Mizelenius]

Originally Posted by monkey's mom

I don't think kids want to hit or feel bad--it's just such a reactionary thing, you know?

ITA. I think it's our job to be our child's voice . . .to say "You did this because ______ (you were scared, you're hungry, etc.). Next time do this ________." I don't think children (or even adults half the time!) know why they are doing what they are doing, and don't know what to do about it.

[kavamamakava]

We don't do time outs AT ALL! If a child is especially destructive or doing something repeatedly that is disruptive or hurting a sibling, that child goes into his/her bedroom to cool down. The child can come out at any time and then we talk about it. I came up with this method as a way to give me a moment to clean up the mess, soothe the injured child, sort through the chaos and help the child have a moment. My son usually sits in his room for as much as 20 minutes and reads. My daughter has only had two cool downs in her life. She doesnt' seem to need them. My son needs them. I don't make his room boring. He can play with toys if he wants to. The one exception to that is when he's being particularly destructive and I know he'll probably dump his toy box out. Then I remove the toy box and if he wants to make a tornado of his room, he can strip the bedding and throw pillows around. He's always happy to help me make the bed again once he's feeling better.
If he's having a hard time coping and relating to the rest of the family and shared family spaces, I try to help him find a safe, less chaotic space to recenter, not punish him by making him stand somewhere for a set amount of time. Usually there are underlying reasons for the behavior that I can pinpoint. Oddly enough, it's usually because he has to poop but isn't ready to poop yet. Once he's calmed down enough, he'll go sit on the toilet and all will be well.

I really had no idea that I would find people touting the value of time outs in the Gentle Discipline Forum. I thought it was considered a punishment tool like spanking, only not a physical one, and therefore did not fall under the Gentle Discipline umbrella.

[Jules411]

I think "time outs" have a wide range of interpretation. Some implement them as a break, others as a punishment. Some, like on Super Nanny, has the child just sitting for a set # of minutes while others are open-ended, the child can read/play in their room or other place and return when the child is ready. I don't know how productive a time out is if the child has to just sit for a specified time, but in the perspecitve of a "break" type time out, the child is basically redirected to another activity in a calmer area (their room) until they are ready to talk about the problem or comply with the limits. The child is also experiencing a consequence for behavior that is not acceptable (i.e. hitting) by having to be away.

My dd (almost 3) goes to her room to look at books if she hurts her sister or is out of control (i.e. throwing things). She can come back when she is ready. I explain that when she is hurting her sister, she can not be with her because it isn't safe. Otherwise we use redirection.

Age is also an issue for "time outs". I think under 2, children don't understand a traditional time out, but a break on a lap or next to a parent to calm down and explain the limit or find out the problem is effective. Then let them return to playing quickly. The verbal part of it is key for any age...explaining the problem, the behavior that is not acceptable and what behaviors are and the child's feelings (either by asking them if old enough or labeling for them if younger).

[Quillian]

We don't use time outs.I tried them briefly with my oldest and it just shifted into another problem,I read and researched more and found that perhaps I was lucky that he was uncooperative. It forced me to look at this method of discipline and for us it was punative and not in anyway teaching appropriate behavior. I understand the concept of regrouping,cooling down etc but this I just cannot see a young child capable of doing without a mentor-so solitary time outs are not in our tool box.

[sagira]

This article may be helpful

It's called Time Out for Children Under the Age of Reason.

http://posdis.org/articles/TimeOut.html

Cheers,

[3_opihi]

I don't really use time outs, just for the simple reason that in my house they seem to be really inneffective. Lately, we have been having lots of problems with ds1 and ds2 wrestling, antagonizing, generally being very roudy to the point that someone always gets hurt. Now, redirection works to a point, but my 5 yo does it on purpose, just to antagonize his brother.

Now, what is a fair consequence for this type of behavior? I really don't think taking away a priveledge is any better than time out. I know he's doing it because he has lots of unused energy, needs attention, and needs to go outside and play. Which I'll do. But in the mean time, how do I address this behavior?

Lately, I've been sending him to his room, not as punishment, but more as, if you can't play with us gently, you will have to go play in your room for awhile. It seems to work ok...No time limit, no punishment, I suppose just a sort of redirection?

[Jules411]

That is what we do for aggression too. Your son's consequence is that he has to leave what he was doing and play elsewhere, also being reminded that hurting is not safe or OK. Environment is key, as you said...you know that he really needs to be outside using up his energy. So much "bad" behavior stems from unmet needs for exercise, routine and predictablilty, hunger, sleep, etc. etc.

[PikkuMyy]

It's funny, what Kavamamakava and several other members have described, I would consider a "Time out", just a different type than "sit in this chair for 2 minutes." They are redirecting their child to take some "time out" of playing or behaving in a way that was inappropriate and rejoin when ready to play appropriately or talk about it. This seems totally reasonable to me and allows the child to relax and choose when he/she is feeling better. It also seems like a much more natural consequence than sitting still for a certain period of time - because how would you know how long it might take your child to be "ready" to rejoin? For some it might be 30 seconds, for another child, it was 20 minutes. It may be that the mothers here who do a form of time out that they actually name "time out" in their posts do the same type as what others don't call "time out". Something to think about...

[3_opihi]

Yeah, I suppose I feel that there is nothing wrong with a "time out" provided it is used in a non punitive form and for the logical consequences. I don't think there is anything wrong with teaching my child to take a step back to collect himself (alone if need be) when he's feeling out of control, upset, angry ect...especially when there is aggression involved. I'm not sure it's the right technique for say, my 2yo, but for a child who already knows the difference between right and wrong I don't think its a bad thing.

I don't like forcing them to sit on a mat, though. That seems kind of silly to me.

[foreverinbluejeans]

In my sentence - If you are a skilled parent you shouldn't have to resort to time outs - put the emphasis on HAVE. You will have so many other things that you can do/say that you just won't need time outs.

I like the things Monkey's mom is saying!