I want to know...

[our veggie baby]

I started this thread because I am genuinely curious so I hope no one sees it as condescending or anything like that. I realize there are probably books to read etc, and I welcome suggestions as well.

I consider myself really "crunchy" and am totally against spanking in ANY circumstance. I am NOT at all for CIO, I don't care for yelling at all, and I am all for re-direction, and talking things out and exploring feelings, drawing feelings, taking time to cool off and the like.

Also, it should be said that I don't really think you can *discipline* children under about 3 maybe. That is somewhat of an arbitrary number, as I know children develop at different rates, but I use that as a general number based on both my college and real world experience on what I percieve to be around the age where children start grasping cause/effect action/consequence type situations.

Okay, that said, here is my question, and again, it is not asked in a condescending way at all. I have read some threads and I am not pointing out anyone in particular, but I have read a lot of comments along the lines of:

"we never say 'no' or 'don't' in our house, those are negative words so we never use them"

"we are against punishments, we don't use them at all"

"I don't want my child to feel hurt if I don't let them do something they want to do"

"I would rather my child feel good about themselves then adhere to a certain set of rules"

...and things of the like. I consider myself a REALLY easygoing person who is looking forward to adopting MANY of the AP techniques...but I am wondering if you fall into this catagory, how do you discipline? I mean what tools do you use to set limits, to help your child learn right from wrong, etc? This isn't rhetorical, I am seriously asking!

[diane1969]

Originally Posted by our veggie baby

"we never say 'no' or 'don't' in our house, those are negative words so we never use them"

"we are against punishments, we don't use them at all"

"I don't want my child to feel hurt if I don't let them do something they want to do"

"I would rather my child feel good about themselves then adhere to a certain set of rules"

I don't think you can lump these alltogether. We only do the first one. We don't use the word *no* because for me, I think so many ppl use it so often over and over again it can become almost 'unheard' by a child. So if I don't want my child to eat a rock, I say "we don't eat rocks" instead of the standard "no, no" (which is like nails on a chaulkboard for me!) I like to simply state the 'bottom line' to a child, instead of one blanket word.

[our veggie baby]

yeah I get ya on that one completely (the-- we don't hit people-- type thing instead of "no!")....I didn't mean to lump them all together as if to imply that the person or people responding had to completely fall into the whole category of examples...you can pick or choose depending on what applies or doesn't to your situation personally...

[AAK]

Maybe I don't belong on this board. . .

I don't relate to any of the phrases that you mentioned. I am not perfect enough to be able to say "I never" anything really. (I wish I could say I never spanked, but regretfully I have). Here is what I CAN say.

I make every effort to not repeat my mistakes.

I make every effort to respect my children while teaching them to respect others.

I try to briefly explain rather than just shout no. Sometimes for young children, it could be a quick two word thing like "so gentle". But I have used the no no no thing. I honestly couldn't convey quickly enough to my dd why we don't eat poop--I just didn't want it in her mouth. Once the immediate event was diverted I was able to say "icky, no poop in mouth, we don't eat poop"

I try not to yell. This is a big one for me. I usually find myself slip if I have gotten overly tired or if the day has been terrible. I hated that my mom yelled a lot.

I believe gentle discipline requires discipline. I believe this requires you to follow through with consequences. Some people seem to think that any "mom-made" consequence is punishment. If so, I guess I sometimes punish. But, I think redirection can also be a consequence. Regarding the time out discussion, in our house we will remove our child from an environment that is overly stimulating or perhaps from a situation that has gotten the best of her. When she was young we would go for a walk and have some calm words. (Our families are VERY big -- we used this when our kids were babies too; more like "we understand that this is chaos, let's take a break and regroup") and it has continued to be our version of time out. Our kids don't see it as a punishment and we don't think of it as one. Sometimes people just need a break. When our dd (starting around 3) would continue in negative behavior, we would remove her and give her control. ie when you are ready to play nicely, you may join the group again. Before we left we would ask if she needed to talk about what was going on. She just turned 5 and I can't even remember the last time I have had to do that.

Gosh I have rambled on and on. It is time for my kids to go to bed. I better get going.

Amy

[sunnmama]

I can relate to your second statement (against punishment), but not the others. We also avoid rewards, other than the natural love and affection and praise of a proud parent
We parent this way because it helps us to avoid power struggles, and because it helps dd to learn to take responsibility for her own behavior. Meaning, do the right thing because it is the right thing to do, not because your parents make you do it. I also want to avoid the shame inherent in punishment, in favor of the pride fixing a situation on your own (when you have done something "bad").

A great book that addresses this parenting philosophy is "Kids are Worth it!", by Barbaba Coloroso. From the back cover: "focuses on helping kids develop their own self-discipline by owning up to their mistakes, thinking through solutions, and correcting their misdeeds while leaving dignity intact."

Basically, when a child does something wrong, they are not punished--but they are stopped. In a young child, that would still mean scooping up an overstimulated child and removing them from a situation if necessary, imo. Appropriate behavior is taught through example and conversation. Inappropriate behavior is addressed thru holding the child directly responsible. This approach means that you don't "fix" things for your child--that is their responsibility.

Recently, my dd (about to turn 4) ruined a library book. It was an accident, so she got no lecture on treating books well. She learned directly from the mistake (dropped the book in a puddle). We talked about how it is our responsiblity to pay for the book. On her own, she went and got her piggy bank. We sat together and I helped her count out $14.95 is quarters and 2 dimes (math lesson!), and she put it in a ziplock bag and wrote "LIBRARY" on the bag (reading/writing lesson!). Then she took the money to the librarian. She fixed the problem. And I was so proud

[Nurturing Mama]

"we never say 'no' or 'don't' in our house, those are negative words so we never use them"

Well, we do use these words, but we try to limit their use. Instead of saying "don't bang on the table", I might say, "you can bang on the floor or the couch". I think it is more helpful to children to tell them what they can do, rather than what they cannot do. Also, telling a child "no" really doesn't give them any information about why they shouldn't be doing that. If the child is pulling the dog's tail, instead of saying "no," it is probably more helpful to say, "Pulling the dog's tail could hurt him. We have to be gentle. Why don't you try petting him instead?" Obviously the length of the explanation should be appropriate for the age of the child. For a young toddler, "gentle touches" would work, while demonstrating how to pet the dog.

"we are against punishments, we don't use them at all"

This is true for us. My son is 2.5, and I don't think he'd really connect the consequence with the action. We do positive time-outs, though, when he is starting to unravel. We go in the bedroom together, cuddle on the blankets, and read books until he is feeling better. For this age it is a great distraction and helps him pull himself together. For older children, natural consequences seem to work better than parent-imposed, unrelated consequences, although I'll be learning more about that later.

"I don't want my child to feel hurt if I don't let them do something they want to do"

This is so true for me, but I know that I have to let him experience disappointment sometimes. In a perfect world, my child would never be disappointed, but I don't want to set up an artificial world where my son gets everything he wants, because then he wouldn't know how to handle himself when he truly can't get what he wants. That said, his wants are always taken into consideration, and we try to compromise so that everybody's wants (within reason) can be met.

"I would rather my child feel good about themselves then adhere to a certain set of rules"

I guess this depends on the situation. We have very few rules, and they pretty much all involve safety and health, i.e. no staying up all night, no eating candy all day, etc. If he wants to eat his snack in the living room rather than the kitchen, I can be flexible on that. For us it's about choosing our battles.

[LoveBeads]

"we never say 'no' or 'don't' in our house, those are negative words so we never use them"

Not true for me. I can probably count the times I have said "no" on one hand, but I would not say that I never say it. That doesn't mean that my child has license to rule the household - I just choose different words when I am limiting. It's pretty much in agreement with what every other mama has said in regards to these words.

"we are against punishments, we don't use them at all"

I don't think punishments are effective. If they were, I might be more apt to use them. I have the same opinion of time outs. Now, that doesn't mean that they aren't effective for other people's children, they're just not effective for mine. On the occasions past when I have "punished" DD (sent her to her room), she is so overwrought with going to her room that she has absolutely no recollection of what happened right before she was sent there. Therefore, not effective for me to use since she didn't learn any cause and effect.

"I don't want my child to feel hurt if I don't let them do something they want to do"

I need to know the context of this. Was this in reference to a child who wanted to go swimming but was sick and could get pneumonia? Or was this a child who just had a baby brother and wanted to have some alone time with mommy?

I would rather my child feel good about themselves then adhere to a certain set of rules"

Again, I need to know the context. Is this a mother talking about not disciplining her child while he's terrorizing other kids or is this a mother who doesn't care if her child eats dinner sitting on the floor instead of at the table.

[polka hop]

*

[candiland]

I've been working on redirection. And it actually seems, ironically, that the stronger-willed a child is, the LESS punishments work!

I know, because I have tried EVERYTHING with my extremely intense dd. Any form of actual "punishment" continues to escalate whatever problem I am trying to make "go away". Example: she won't stop screaming at the top of her lungs and use her words. The more I give her negative energy, the louder she yells and the larger the power struggle becomes. The only punishment at this point would be to tie her to a chair for a time out, because she wouldn't stay otherwise. So how far do you take punishments before they become abusive and more about control than "teaching"?

[Foobar]

Originally Posted by our veggie baby

"we never say 'no' or 'don't' in our house, those are negative words so we never use them"

We say these words,but they are followed with "...but we do...." For example, We DON'T put feet on the dinner table. That is not acceptable. We can put our feet up on the coffee table after dinner.

"we are against punishments, we don't use them at all"

We use limited punishments. Very limited. Toys that are abused get time outs, not the child. We tell Goo that she isn't playing with the toy nicely and it has to go into time out to rest until she feels she is ready to use the toy properly (a good example is that we don't run through the house with our saftey scissors. If she does, the scissors go into time out.)

"I don't want my child to feel hurt if I don't let them do something they want to do"

LIfe is unfair. I don't mind explaining that to my child and if she wants to do something and she can't, she can feel hurt. I DO explain to her that it is ok to feel mad and angry, but that doesn't mean she can do it.

"I would rather my child feel good about themselves then adhere to a certain set of rules"

Depends on the rules. Are they reasonable for example: Don't stick your sister's head in a bucket or are they silly like: Don't play with the train by pretending it's an airplane.
Rules are part of life. We have real rules (laws) and we have silly societal ones. I think it is fair to teach her that there are rules and she needs to learn to either accept rules OR argue why they are unfair. We will ALWAYS listen to her arguments and if she has a good argument, we have changed the rule.

...and things of the like. I consider myself a REALLY easygoing person who is looking forward to adopting MANY of the AP techniques...but I am wondering if you fall into this catagory, how do you discipline? I mean what tools do you use to set limits, to help your child learn right from wrong, etc? This isn't rhetorical, I am seriously asking![/QUOTE]

[annettemarie]

I actually think I know where you are going with this, because I have thought this myself.
Who gets to decide what is gentle discipline? Is there an absolute, carved-in-stone definition somewhere? Even if you go by the sticky in this forum

Effective discipline is based on loving guidance. It is based on the belief that children are born innately good and that our role as parents is to nurture their spirits as they learn about limits and boundaries, rather than to curb their tendencies toward wrongdoing. Effective discipline presumes that children have reasons for their behavior and that cooperation can be engaged to solve shared problems.

Hitting is never the best way to teach a child. Even in the case of real danger - as when a child runs out into the road - you can grab him, sit him down, look him in the eyes, and tell him why he must never do that again. The panic in your voice will communicate your message much more effectively than any spanking. You can be dramatic without being abusive.

It doesn't seem to necessarily rule out time outs, saying no, or consequences. Sometimes I feel like I am being held up to a standard that doesn't actually exist...

Annette

[LunaMom]

I think that if there is anyone here who adheres to the statements you quoted in your post - ALL the statements - I'd be surprised.

I think of myself as a gentle disciplinarian, and this is how those statements apply to me:

"we never say 'no' or 'don't' in our house, those are negative words so we never use them"

I try to word things in the positive, but sometimes you just have to say no. I think it was easier to avoid "no" when DD was a toddler, but even then, the word "not" had to be used, as in, "Books are for reading, not for chewing." At age six, she really needs to hear a clear and distinct no at times. But we don't overuse it. And yes, I also hate people who say "no, noooo..." to babies and toddlers as though they are dogs. My FIL used to do that - drove me nuts.

"we are against punishments, we don't use them at all"

We hardly ever use them at all. Most of DD's inappropriate behaviors have logical consequences (if not always "natural" ones, meaning ones that would occur on their own). If she is disrespectful, she is asked to change her tone of voice or choice of words. If she dawdles at bedtime, that means less time for stories. If she can't leave a playdate peacefully, it'll be a while before I schedule another. That sort of thing. She's a pretty good kid, so it doesn't go much beyond that.

"I don't want my child to feel hurt if I don't let them do something they want to do"

Actually, I EXPECT her to be upset and learn to express it appropriately. And it's my job to acknowledge her feelings but stay firm on the limits. So I'm on the opposite side of this one. Kids need to learn to deal with disappointment. It's really doing a disservice to your child if you try to make their world pleasing to them at all times. How will they handle it when life does not stay that way?

"I would rather my child feel good about themselves then adhere to a certain set of rules"

Feeling good about oneself doesn't come from always getting things your way. It comes from feeling loved and secure and knowing that you are doing your best. Being able to handle things you don't like (rules, limits, disappointments) without falling apart is something to be proud of, too. I know when my DD is able to make a positive change in her behavior she feels great about herself. And there are rules in life, that's the way it is, and nobody is going to feel good about themselves if they constantly "get in trouble' for failing to follow them.

So, there it is - gentle discipline the LunaMom way, tee hee. Works in my family just fine!

[sunnmama]

Originally Posted by annettemarie

It doesn't seem to necessarily rule out time outs, saying no, or consequences. Sometimes I feel like I am being held up to a standard that doesn't actually exist...

Annette

I don't punish (or, rather, aim to avoid the punishment/reward stuff), but I am not holding anyone else to that standard. All kids and parents really are different, kwim? Like someone said earlier on this thread--the stronger the will of the child, the *less* punishments seem to work! Sorta forces us parents of spirited kids to find other methods that work, lol.

There are some mamas here that I *deeply* respect who have shared frustration with redirection, talking, etc...and found that a concrete consequence (time out, for example) really helped their child and their family. Who am I to say that is wrong for them? I can go on and on ad nauseum about the "philosophical" reasons to avoid punishment and reward, but if you have a child that seems to respond best to those methods (and it is important to change the behavior).....well, I don't live with that child, kwim? Maybe that method only needs to be used for a while, and another method will be great at an older age, maybe not. I am think specifically of an IRL friend I have who's son has Aspergers. He is not always able to understand the "why's" and so forth, but really responds well to a reward chart. He "gets" that, and it works for them.

Blabbing on and on here...but your statement really touched me. I would hate for well meaning, gentle mamas to feel judged on this board because they felt they weren't following GD "rules". Sorta like those ap "rules". Screw the "rules", lol. I come to the GD board for the same reasons I come to MDC....for inspiration, for help, for support, for comraderie. I don't do everything by-the-book, but I am not advocating CIO and spanking, either. I do the best I can...as I learn better, I do better....but I am not going to worry about other people's standards .

[mommyofshmoo]

We have a very open, yes-oriented home. However, when my dd can't have or do something, she has always responded to the word "no" better than to an explanation or redirection.

I describe her reaction to redirection as the way I feel when I call the phone company to change my calling plan, and they offer me 10 options I don't want instead of just saying "I'm sorry, we can't do that for you today."

[mistymama]

I can't really relate to any of those ... except for maybe not saying *no* ... but I do say it from time to time, I just try to say something more postitive like "be gentle with the kitty"

I definately feel there are certain rules in our house (but I'm VERY VERY kicked back, so not many! :LOL) and I do expect them to be followed. I don't worry about hurting his feelings for making him stick by a couple of rules that are in place for his safety and the sanity of the family.

So I do consider myself very AP, and a GD mom, but none of those phrases really relate to what we do.

[our veggie baby]

Thanks for all the replies thusfar! I am learning a lot, which is good because we are expecting our first child (daughter) in May!

I think a lot of what I was mixed up in was semantics, conditioning from when I was little, and fear that our child was just going to run wild ruling our every thought and action in the home!

A lot of what you mamas said resonated with me and were pretty close to how we planned on disciplining our daughter anyway!

I myself grew up in a very ineffective situation where discipline was concerned--I was hit...a lot...as I was a very strong-willed or *spirited* child and no one knew how to handle me I guess, but I hold a lot of resentment to this day because of it...so my hubby and I KNEW we were N E V E R, I mean, N E V E R spanking and wanted to be gentle and hone our child's spirit while also equipping her with the tools for life...and we had sort of an idea how, but your suggestions are very helpful!!

Thank you so much for your insights and suggestions!!
I look forward to hearing more of what you mamas have to say!

[PuppyFluffer]

All the individual statements have been address well by other posters but I want to share an *ah ha* moment I had while talking with dh one night. I was lamenting how our dd could now pronounce a word correctly because I so enjoyed her mangled attempt to say it---sort of the bittersweetness of her growing up. My dh said to me "Remember, we are raising an adult, not a child." His words struck me so much!

I think of that when it comes to discipline. She will be an adult, all this work we put into our children is in the goal of creating a functional compassionate adult and as such, I think I have just thrown out the idea that she is deserving of any less respect than an adult. I am having a hard time explaining this....Let me come up with an example. If dd has something that I don't want her to have I ask for it "May I have that please?" I extend dd the same courtesy. I would never go up to an adult and grab something from him/her. (Now, if she does not give it to me, I tell her I will help her give it to me....and thank her and redirect etc....) I treat her as I would want to be treated - with the respect I would show another adult. The key for me is respect. Obviously, we need to explain and work with children differently than an adult peer, but the appropriate respect is the key.

I don't think I should say anything to my child I would not say to an adult peer. (I mean this in terms of respectful content, tone of voice etc...) I also strive to not say anything I don't want to hear coming back to me from my 2 yr old's mouth! :LOL:

My vision is that GD is about respect, cooperation and partnership, not power and control.

[bec]

The only thing that I disagree with you here on is your idea of discipline.

You say that you don't believe in discipline until age 3.

I guess I'm of the belief that discipline starts as soon as they are born. I consider baby-proofing a form of discipline. Responding to a baby's needs and cries is a form of discipline. Redirecting is discipline. Modeling good behavior is definitely discipline. Maybe you don't put the burden of discipline on the child's shoulders until around age 3, but it is started long before then.

In order to effectively discipline your child, you need to have that child's trust and willingness to accept you as, not only an authority figure, but as an authority figure that has their best interests at heart.

I have never spanked my kids (and truly don't believe I ever will). I have raised my voice and yelled, unfortunately, but I haven't recently and am continuuing to work on that (not perfect, just human). I do some things that could be viewed as punitive, but try to aim for a more effective natural consequence sort of thing. My oldest is not quite 4, so she really hasn't had time to do anything really offensive. I try really hard to make my oldest understand why I'm not letting her do whatever it is I have not let her done. Most times these are safety issues. I also try very hard not to set arbitrary rules. I try to think about why I object to a certain behavior, and see if it is truly something she shouldn't be doing, or something that just bugs me for some reason. Sometimes (usually saftey reasons), though, no is no, and it really doesn't matter how she feels about it.

Mostly I try to be consistent with the rules she has. I try to make sure she not only understands what is expected of her, but why it is expected of her. When we do seem to be at cross purposes, I try to treat her kindly and gently, while still being firm about following the rules we have set. It's a pretty easy house to live in, the rules are simple, understandable, and logical. And we (the adults) are not exempt from most of those rules. We use gentle touches, our nice words, nice tone of voice, we don't snatch toys (or anything) out of each other's hands, and we listen when other's are talking to us. When we are feeling out of control (either mad or tantrumy, or any other of the very powerful emotions that make us not very pleasant to be around), we will take a time out for a few moments until we can be calm. It keeps us working pretty well as a family.

I hope this helps.


Bec

[Piglet68]

Originally Posted by our veggie baby

"we are against punishments, we don't use them at all"

...I am wondering if you fall into this catagory, how do you discipline? I mean what tools do you use to set limits, to help your child learn right from wrong, etc?

An excellent question. I fall into the above quoted category. It still amazes me that it is possible to teach a child without punishment, so I'm not surprised when anybody else is doubtful or amazed.

Punishment is based on the assumption that if we make a situation painful enough, scary enough, or even just unpleasant enough, that this will somehow motivate a child to "behave". Without even questioning what the point of "behaving" is, and how that fits into growing up a child who can solve problems, take responsibility for their actions, and relate well to others...we can just begin with this. This assumption, that we have to do something unpleasant at best, and painful at worst, in order to motivate children to please us is actually unfounded. It assumes the worst in children.

Take into consideration the fact that children desperately want to please their parents. Even children who are abused by their parents seek their approval, even well into adulthood. Punishment-free discipline takes advantage of this basic fact. Children want to please you, they want to behave. A child who is properly attached, and has never experienced the concept of punishment and the power-struggle inherent to that action, has little need to engage in misbehaviour for "ulterior motives".

I could write more but I'll stop that essay there. Suffice to say there are people who do it, I am doing it, and it IS possible. Whether someone chooses to go that route, whether they are able to, is up to the individual family and what their values and goals for discipline are. Punishment takes advantage of the fact that your child has no choice but to succumb to you because you are bigger and stronger than they are. But there will come an age when that is not the case, when you can't stop them, control what they wear or who they see or what they do when they leave your door. I decided to start out my relationship "with the end in mind" as Kurcinka says. So when my toddler misbehaves, I tell her firmly what the rules are, then help her to make a different choice. Even *I* have nagging voices of doubt in my head leftover from my own upbringing, questioning whether just repeating "we don't hit in this family" really does any good. But I am already seeing the rewards. My toddler has begun talking about these issues herself. She has started to understand that emotions are what motivate her, and that we must address the emotions. I have seen her get angry, screech out loud (something we're currently working on) and then stop and look at me like "shit, I really didn't mean to do that". Heck, I know exactly how she feels. I have experienced my child doing something she is not supposed to do, then come and tell me about it, without a trace of fear (of punishment) on her face ("mama, I went into the fridge and I broke an egg") and then take my hand to go get her a cloth to wipe it up with.

It's the hardest thing I've ever done, because punishment is the first thing that comes to mind in a new situation, and frankly it's the easiest solution in the short term. But when I put my mind to it and muster up my patience, I get through the moment and feel rewarded in spades when I do.

[UnschoolnMa]

We don't punish. No way. We work out things together every time. If you broke something, not an issue we can deal with that...let's just talk about it. If you lied (my son had a brief stage of this when he was like 6 or so...) then we can work on that too. We have encouraged openess and honesty, and owning up to when we have made a mistake. (Even us as parents and adults, we are very upfront about saying when we have blown it and apologizing for what we've done wrong if the situation calls for it)

GD (I prefer the term guidance to discipline... but that's not important lol) creates an atmosphere of trust and respect that flows in all directions (parent to child, sibling to sibling, etc) When a child has guidance that is kind and forgiving from the start then the mistakes aren't a reason for punishment but for learning and growing. It's how we gain wisdom, and with gentle parents is the best place to start that.

A "time out" can be done well I think if it's purpose is to get away from a stressful situation, regroup, and just basically chill out. If a preschooler is hitting another child for example then the goal would be to A. get to the heart of the problem (why is he hitting?) and B. Help him understand in gentle way why hitting isn't (usually) okay. A time out with the parent can be effective that way if it involves a loving response rather than a judgemental punishing one.