so what DOES spoiling look like?

[moma justice]

coming from a childhood of punishment and neglect, i have come to understand that so much of what i have been told about discipline is not accurate......
i want to nurture my childs willfullness to live and explore not crush it
i want to allow her freedom of expression not teach her shame
i want to be there for her when she needs me, not deny her my love/attention

but what does spoiling look like? is it possible? at what age does it begin to be a possibilty?
i have had alot of exp with older kids (was a public school teacher) and i know i have seen some pretty spoiled kids;
hurtful, disrespectful, etc.

so my dd is 18 months old and i want to know about what GDers think about spoiling babies, toddlers, children etc...

[sagira]

Just my opinion here, but from everything that I've read (and I have read a lot and I'm still reading) spoiling is three things:

-not have time, attention for child and make up for it by buying things to compensate for love (subconciously of course)
-nurturing manipulation skills in a child three or older (e.g. every time child throws a tantrum because he/she can't have candy, give in and give the child candy)
-permissive parenting, which can be as disrespectful as controlling parenting. This means letting children do whatever they want, whenever they want, with no guidance or consequences. Borders on neglectful.

Hope this is helpful,

[terrarose]

Hi. I agree with what sagira said, excellent points

I just wanted to expand on permissive parenting a bit. One of my abysitting kids is going through this right now. She's been taught that life is all about her and has complete disregard for others. My kids are very important to me, too, I just don't cater to thier every whim and constantly put my needs as non important. Befor I get flamed- yes, I know I'm judging the situation from the outside and I'm sure there are many things going on that I don't understand. This is just my perception of the situation.. Anyway, she is not a happy little girl. Others do not respond well to her demands and indignation when she is not catered to. When she's been at my house often and had some respectful boundaries, she is MUCH happier. Again, there probably is more going on than I know about. I see our family unit as a team but occasionally, I wear coaches hat. I don't dictate, I point out the consequences of a perticular action and if it's effecting me, how I feel.

That was long winded, sorry. Good for you for trying to find respectful ways when you didn't have that example growing up. I pretty much saw most wants as needs until my kiddos were 3, if that helps. All the best to you in finding your own answers.

[sagira]

I agree with you, Terrarose. I think children thrive in an environment with secure, loving boundaries.

[eminer]

I think of what people generally called "spoiled" as a reaction to being in a child-centered rather than a group-centered social environment. Although the intention is almost always to be loving, protective, and/or indulgent, it is actually very a stressful place for children to be. For some people, "setting boundaries" is good language to describe how they keep that emotional balance as they interact with their children...but I'm not sure if the alternative, the imbalanced state, really comes from a lack of boundaries per se. It is more broadly about the self-sense of the adult and his/her ability to share it with a child (allowing the child to orient to it and draw from it). When you're feeling off-kilter with this, it is also possible to respond almost unintentionally by being punitive. It's all about the connection. :-)

[foreverinbluejeans]

Babies are not spoiled by meeting their needs. Breastfeeding and child-led weaning can help a mother who hasn't had good mothering herself learn to mother her child. Now is the time to start reading books about toddlers like Without Spanking or Spoiling by Elizabeth Crary.

You may enjoy LLL meetings or attending a LLL conference. There may be a yearly conference in your state that is very reasonable in price. There are usually several parenting experts at conferences. I met Dr. Sears at an Indiana LLL conference (even got to eat lunch with him) before he was famous. I've heard most of the GD book authors speak. I went to my first LLL conference when my oldest was a toddler and it was a life altering experience for me. LLL groups have lending libraries that include GD books.

[Alexander]

"Spoiling children" is generally Victorian Era speak for either

1) the providing un-necessary material goods whenever they are requested/demanded.

2) listening to children or paying attention to children insted of the "more important" adult that wants the attention.

I'd say the first has merrit, the second does only damage.

a

[morgainesmama]

"to spoil" is to let lie and rot. You can do the same with children. Meeting the needs of a baby is the antithesis of this.

[my2girlsmama]

I always say and live by the fact you can spoil fruit but you cannot spoil a baby.

What everyone has said about older children is truth. If you teach them they are the centre of the universe and give them anything material they ask for, you are afraid to discipline in whatever manner you deem right for your family, try to be a friend more than a parent, you will find trouble-and an unruly child.

But if you offer love, respect, healthy discipline (non spanking, IMO, but don't be afriad to be firm or raise a voice), lots of attention and one I have learned this year-apologies. Yes I said it. My daughter has learned that when mommy is having a bad mama day and lashes out at her, she is special enough as a human being to receive an honest apology from mommy and an explaination why.

It's the little things.

[Midwesternmomma]

I agree with the other posters - one of the most important elements to "spoiling" a child is giving in to their every demand. Note, there is a HUGE difference between their every demand and all of their NEEDS. I am sure we all can agree that we must do our best to meet all of our children's needs. Yet, with an non-infant, children can, and do, request things that are not needs.

For example, my five year old son requests a new Thomas the Tank Engine every time we go to the local toy store. IMO, it would be spoiling him to get him one every time we go. He would love it, but he doesn't need it. Instead, he has recently started doing simple chores for change and is now saving money for the engine he would like. Spoiling children with material goods is one way of spoiling them, but not the only way.

I believe that, like others pointed out, that the most damaging kind of "spoiling" is not having boundaries for your children. You children need to know what you expect and what the consequence will be if they do not do what you expect. Clear and definate consequences are very important in our family.

If my son's Magnetic's toys (which have small pieces) are left where his 2yro sister can get them and put them in her mouth, I take them away for two days and he has to go around the house with me, carrying this little choking hazard tube, putting small objects into it to see if she could choke on them. (We usually don't find anything , but sometimes we even find some mommy things.. : ) Yet, what would I be teaching my son if I saw his magnetics on the living room floor and he was playing in his room and I ran in screaming and yanked him up and spanked him.... nothing. Similarly, what would he learn from me just picking them up and putting them away and me saying , honey, don't do that again or I will XXXX .. but that XXX never happens. My rule is, if you don't intend to follow through, don't threaten it. So, I have learned to follow through.... EVERY TIME, and be very careful not to threaten things I don't mean.

HTH..

Christina

[Tuesday]

I think the answers here are very wise and in line with the question "what does spoiling look like", I was wondering if the following is "spoiling"

My SIL's two children (5 and 3 yo), since birth, have been the focal point of my MIL's and FIL's life - understandably. But, it's been 5 years since SIL's oldest DS was born and nothing nothing nothing is ever denied these two children. DH and I always found something about the situation mildly annoying but couldn't articulate. This Christmas, I just thought "I think these kids are spoiled!" I feel guilty for saying it but the behaviour:

- there is never never adult conversation ever- I mean ever - we are supposed to play and speak continuously to the girls and any conversation like "how is your job going?" is interrrupted by "look at me do my dance" or "Everyone be quiet and look at me!" and this is always supported by parents and grandparents. It's been 5 years of no adult conversation when visiting. I don't mean in depth - I mean just trying to exchange one polite sentence like "how are you?". I've spent time at play groups etc. and no how it can be nearly impossible to get in a line or two of adult conversation but at holidays when there are many kids around, I think it is not unreasonable to be able to be able to complete one sentence to another adult ....

- Now our DS (their cousin) is on the scene - they do not play with him (he is 20 months old), they complain continuously about his presence, they yell at me to stop DS, take DS away because he is a "pain", "in the way", "ruining everything" . DS is pushed and shoved by these children and no intervention other than me stepping in and gently removing DS. DCs parents do not intervene at all.

- SIL's children have been fussy eaters and have always been given special meals. The thing is, the kids won't eat regular food and they won't eat their special meals made just for them. They only want junk food! Now, at dinners (like Christmas), they continue to have their special foods served - - which they still don't eat and if they don't get the food they want (dessert or junk), they gag, vomit and scream and cry at the table until they get what they want.

- temper tantrum? no problem - they will get what they want or be given a bag of chips and chocolate bars to quiet them

DH faults the children and although I find their behaviour increasingly annoying, I feel sorry for them because its the parents and grandparents' fault. I call this sort of behaviour "spoiled". I don't understand why SIL and to lesser extent her DH do this - they are very nice people but I sometimes think they don't realize basic cause and effect behaviour in people.

In any case, I wondered if you agreed this was "spoiled". I don't really like that term but I don't know what else to say. It's go the point, DH and I can't handle being with the family and most of my friends avoid my company if they know these children will be present.


I actually feel very uncomfortable around these children because I don't feel it's my place to intervene yet they are increasingly affecting DS when we are together.

[eilonwy]

My mother told me that a child is spoiled when you give them things which you don't want to give them just to appease them. In other words, it's not spoiling a child to spend $500 in a toystore, as long as you do it of your own free will, without coercion.

[eminer]

Tuesday, what I would say is that the environment -- or the family -- is child-centered. (Like you, I hate attaching a negative label to the children, when their behavior is really a direct response to the adults around them!) A lot of the behavior you describe is age-appropriate, but it would normally be moderated and guided by the adults present. When that is unavailable, the immature behavior often escalates (Do you remember the feeling of getting "out of control" as a child? Yuck). The moderation/guidance thing doesn't have to look like active, systematic discipline, necessarily, it is just a matter-of-fact way of interacting. (Like, "Just a moment, I would *love* to see your dance as soon as Aunt June is finished telling her story. Come listen with me: She's telling us about...")

Some adults enjoy "indulging" children (especially grandchildren!) in this way, but my impression is that very few children really enjoy the experience. They usually end up overcome by a temper tantrum after coming down from a sugar high. :-(

[eminer]

Originally Posted by eilonwy

My mother told me that a child is spoiled when you give them things which you don't want to give them just to appease them. In other words, it's not spoiling a child to spend $500 in a toystore, as long as you do it of your own free will, without coercion.

As I thought through what you wrote, I guess I ended up feeling it again underlined for me what I hate about the word "spoiled". Even though the word itself recognizes the source of the problem, it usually ends up seeming to attach blame to the child. It's always disturbing to me when I think these things through and realize how much of that pattern is still embedded in my psyche. I suppose that's why I like these discussions, and also why they are sometimes so painful.

Although there isn't anything inherently damaging about spending $500 in a toystore, I can envision scenarios in which even if done freely and out of loving generosity, it would have a negative affect on a child. My dad tended to go a bit overboard spending money on me (not way overboard, but he would spontaneously buy me an expensive doll or suggest I order an expensive meal while we were out). He had a lot of problems, but he was *not* trying to buy me off. However, the feeling of his urge to somehow show his love and show me that I was secure hurt. On some level, it hurt him and he wasn't facing that, so it found its way over to me. Whenever I or anyone else will now try to splurge on me, I feel this anxiety that reminds me of that time. Something horrible may happen, we may lose our house or someone may die. It's weird. For a few of my friends, Christmas was a negative version of the toystore scenario, too. Their parents filled the living room because they wanted to give them a magical experience, and it was magical, but maybe the wrong kind... A little off, "too much" in some way, and not the kind of intensity that seems just as yummy in memory, but the kind where you are overwhelmed before you are even done opening all your gifts. I guess the $500 toystore trip was displacing something else that should have been there, the rest of the holiday, or the everyday security somewhat lacking in my relationship with my father.

Remembering how my mom reacted to the friends with the overenthusiastic parents, I know it was hard for her at the time not to dislike them when she saw it reflected in their behavior. The "spoiled" thing encapsulates a more obscure way (understandably, when we also have beating and verbal abuse and neglect) in which children are harmed in our society. In the urge to give them the best and keep them innocent and happy and so forth, we are sometimes using childhood for the thrill it gives us, not remembering how it feels when you are actually a child. They are cut off from the real nourishment they need, from just being a real person among other honest people.

[Tuesday]

Originally Posted by eminer

(Like, "Just a moment, I would *love* to see your dance as soon as Aunt June is finished telling her story. Come listen with me: She's telling us about...")

Thanks! I like the way you phrased the above example too! I will use something like that myself when the opportunity arises. And, you're right - some of this obviously 'normal" but there is no intervention at all. I just don't think it's acceptable to allow a 5 year old to tell a roomful of adults to "be quiet" and "shut up" or "go away" and demand rapt attention - without exception. I think you gave a really good suggestion. THanks.

[my2girlsmama]

I was just going to post something to the above is what we do.

My oldest dd who is 5 loves attention...but I am finding I get very tough on her need to interrupt and always always make apoint of stating she must wait until we are through talking. She isn't thrilled but knows I am serious.

That said, my parents are on the fence, as most gparents are. They go from appeasing her to balking at ME for allowing her to interrupt etc. Sometimes I do appease her and say "great job" when the conversation isn't a huge issue or she is there with us chatting.........but overall I get very annoyed and try my best to tell her to wait and why.

It isn't easy. My Dh's parents who we no longer see (long sad story) used to buy the kids' love...oldest dd would get money and any junk food they had even when a baby! (NO she didn't ingest any but they pushed it on us to give her) and it went on...........they don't understand the meaning of love and so when I read how some appease their children or gchildren I worry...it sends a horrible message to the children....and they grow to expect anything and everything life can whip out.

[yogabug]

I totally agree with the fact that you can't spoil a baby. But when do you start discipline? When is she not a baby in the sense that I try to meet her needs immediately. For example, my dd is 17 months and she always asks for a snack, sometimes when we are out at the library in the car, etc. I have been giving it to her because I figure she is hungry. Is she old enough to wait for things? I guess my main question is when are they old enough to start discipline. I just feel like she may not understand yet. It was so much easier when she was a baby. Now I always question whether I am doing the right thing or spoiling her. Thanks for any insights.

[Red]

Spoiling is giving someone everything they want, with no regard to how it affects others.

Infants HAVE no regard of others exisiting, therefore, they can't be spoiled. Also, infants cry because they NEED, not want. Meting needs is healthy and gratifying.

It doesn't matter why one person spoils another, some people do it to try to make up for difficulty in the childs life. For instance, my friends kids father died. Very horrible, heart-breaking. However, the adults involved started BUYING the kids things; expensive video games, the most incredible bikes and all the accessories, clothes with tags naming their designer. They went from being good boys to brats. They EXPECTED their mother, who had a small, low paying job to buy them each a car, to pay for trips, etc. And they're obnoxious to be around.

They have no regard for how their wants affect others.

I feel the poster who said you could spend $500 on a child if you wanted to and not spoil the child, is missing the point. THe kid will get used to being treated to these spree's, will come to expect them.

FOr small children, walking, talking little ones, you can start by saying, "I'll get your juice right after I wash this dish." Or, "We'll play blocks right after you put away your doll." They learn that everything they want doesn't have to happen the second they want it to in order to be rewarding. They learn to wait a minute.

Same in the store. They can't have a candy bar EVERYTIME you wheel by a rack of them. Sometimes, even if you FEEL like buying it, it might be better to say no. Like when supper is in an hour, or they had one earlier, or you simply want to limit junk.

And when they throw a massive fit, and most do sometime, just remember you're teaching them a valuable lesson and don't feel guilty.

Last, if you said no, stick to it. (Disclaimer: Ever say no for no good reason? Sometimes, you have to say, "oops, I made a mistake, sure go ahead.")