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Just found out I'm having a boy, tell me about circumcison... - Page 2

post #21 of 55
Often when the discussion of circumcision gets down to a debate, those trying to justify circumcision resort to linking to news articles, op-ed pieces, a press release or something they saw on The Oprah Show. Those are pretty much worthless and I demand to see the actual study. If I can't see the actual study, it ain't worth doodle.

The link above is a news article taken from a press release and really tells you little and it is difficult to really debate with this tid-bit of information. I'm into minutiae and really like to see these studies so that I can see what the limits are and what the confounders are. I happened to find the actual study. for those like me that like to spend an hour or so of plowing through statistics and deciphering medical jargon and scientific terms, here is the actual study:

http://www.prweb.com/prfiles/2004/11...-_Van_Howe.pdf



Enjoy!



Frank
post #22 of 55
Hi from Scandinavia!

As others have stated, USA is the only country practising routine infant circumcision for 'medical' reasons. Even suggesting something like that here would get people furious. Besides, doctors refuse to do it. Male circumcision is viewed as horrible and violating than female circumcision.
Here, boys/men actually needing circumcision for medical reason is extremely rare - less than 0.006%. That pretty much makes foreskin one of the healthiest bodypart! As long as you take care of intact penis correctly = leave it alone!!!! Unfortenately American medical community is very poorly educated when it comes to correct care of intact penis - you can check the sticky's on the top of this page(warning for parents of intact son).

This is how circumcision is done in USA;

http://www.cirp.org/library/procedure/plastibell/

http://www.circumcisionquotes.com/circvid9.rm

http://www.intact.ca/vidintro.htm

AUDIO only: http://www.cirp.org/library/procedur...ibell/circ.wav
post #23 of 55
Quote:
when he gets married, an uncircumcised penis will hurt the woman during sex?!?!?
I can tell you from first hand experience that sex with a circumcised man is MUCH more painful- like a previous poster said- it causes much more soreness than sex with a an intact man. I guess this may be TMI for some but it is my experience- I have had both here is my experience: My fiance is circed and we have to use lube every time we have sex to avoid the soreness that occurs otherwise- it also takes circed men longer to orgasm (and not in a good way) because they have reduced sensation. They also tend to go soft more often than intact men. I find myself wishing that my man wasn't circed because I know it feels better with an intact man- not worrying over lube, not thinking "god I got off 15 minutes ago and he's still trying to get off- how long is this going to last- god he just went soft"

I am pregnant with a boy too and I can't wait to tell him "I respected you and protected you" and know that he will have much better sexual function than some of his peers. Who would want to deprive their son and his future mate of the best sexual experience possible?

So many people don't even think about the foreskin as a sexual organ- my mom even said "why would you want to keep all that ugly extra skin?" well mom, because it isn't "extra" and it isn't "ugly"
post #24 of 55
I've posted this elsewhere, but thought it might be worth re-posting on this thread, to give a different perspective.

My dh is intact (he's British, and they don't circ over here, although they used to about 50 years ago).

Let me tell you - it definitely doesn't hurt to have sex! It's quite nice, funnily enough. :LOL

Now, I'm a bit old-fashioned, and dh is my 'one and only', so I can't give you comparisons. But since DH is intact, I know what a normal unaroused penis looks like - and the glans is covered.

In a normal, intact penis, the foreskin comes back when the man is aroused, uncovering the glans.

So you only see the uncovered glans when the man is aroused.

Except, of course, if the man is circumcised - in which case, the penis has been cut so that it will look permanently aroused.

Quite honestly, I would be embarrassed to see my ds's uncovered glans. That is a private part of his body, and again - having it uncovered denotes arousal (not something a mom wants to see in her son, right?! :LOL ).

But a circumcised baby has been cut so that he will look permanently aroused. When you think about it, that is a very warped thing to do.

It's been pointed out here that the current 'fashion' for circumcision is to leave quite a lot of foreskin, so some circumcised babies still look 'intact' (and so not aroused) - but that doesn't negate the point that the parents are then told that he'll 'grow into it' - meaning that at some point in the future, the glans will be permanently exposed.
post #25 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Love2learn
Why do you chose not to?
I don't know anyone who has chosen not to. Is it because of the pain??
Not entirely, it was a factor (like delaying shots, I didn't want his first few days to be tramatic), but mostly I don't feel right about parents imposing their ideas of sexuality on their babies. I find tatoos extremely sexy on a man, but I would never think of tatooing my infant son. Parents who think circ'd penises "look better" are taking what they find sexualy attractive and putting that on their children. I frankly think that's rather sick. As for the "health reasons" - even a quick read through any reputable source will show you there are no clear health benefits to circ'ing. If you've ever had a UTI, you know they're uncomfortable but easily treated with antibiotics. I wouldn't think of having my genitals sliced off just to prevent that.

Quote:
My SIL asked if we were going to circumcise and I told her I don't know yet. (I need to learn about it, I have no clue about either side)
She then tells me how unhealthy it is to not circumcise and how when he gets married, an uncircumcised penis will hurt the woman during sex?!?!?
You're going to run across a lot of opinions in this discussion. It tends to bring up a lot of emotion from people, both for and against. Just remember, it's not your SILs penis and she'll never be affected by your decision. Your son will live the repercussions of your choice for the rest of his life. He's the only one you'll have to answer to, and you may have to do that some day. What would you tell him if he asked why you did it? As a mother, I never wanted to utter the words "because everyone else was doing it" - kind of blows away a lot of what you try to teach you kids.

Quote:
Also , most of my friends (Christians) mention, "Well, it's in the Bible"
Anyway, I want to be well informed so where do I start reading about all of this?
I'm not an active Christian, but even I know that's an ignorant statement. Yes, Jesus was circumcised (he was Jewish) - he was also crucified, but I don't see parents rushing out to do that to their sons. If you're focusing on what he looked like naked, then you're missing his point entirely
post #26 of 55
Just say NO.
post #27 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Love2learn
Why do you chose not to?
I don't know anyone who has chosen not to. Is it because of the pain?
My SIL asked if we were going to circumcise and I told her I don't know yet. (I need to learn about it, I have no clue about either side)
She then tells me how unhealthy it is to not circumcise and how when he gets married, an uncircumcised penis will hurt the woman during sex?!?!?
Also , most of my friends (Christians) mention, "Well, it's in the Bible"
Anyway, I want to be well informed so where do I start reading about all of this?
Next time you talk to your SIL about circumcision maybe you should ask her some of these questions:

How can it be unhealthy if every boy (Every mammal as well.) is born with a foreskin?

How can something that's supposed to be there hurt a woman during sex? Did you know that there was a survey done and it showed that most women prefer having sex with an intact man?

Did you know that in the NT of the Bible it says that circumcision is unnecessary and there actually appears to be a warning for those that do it?

Did you know that most boys don't get pain relief, and that in the beginning the reason they did it without pain relief was in hopes that the boy would associate the pain with masturbation so he wouldn't do it (Non-religious circumcision in the US was started to stop boys from masturbating. They knew that it would remove sensitive nerve endings with the tissue thus making it not feel as good. The same goes for sex for circumcised men.)

Did you know that the rate of circed vs. intact is getting close to 50/50 now?

Did you know that the US is the ONLY country that circs the majority of it's boys for non-religious reasons?

Did you know that they circumcise girls in other countries and use some of the same excuses you gave me to circumcise my son?

And then use these links to educate her (Think of this as an opportunity to possibly save another child from this atrocity.)


Similarities in Attitudes and Misconceptions toward Infant Male Circumcision in North America and Ritual Female Genital Mutilation in Africa.

Separated at Birth: Did circumcision ruin your sex life?

Mothers Against Circumcison

DOCTORS OPPOSING CIRCUMCISION (D.O.C.)

Mothering: The Case Against Circumcision

If you read nothing else, please check out this site, it's very important. Historical Medical Quotes on Circumcision

The Circumcision Information and Resource Pages

Answers from the Bible to Questions about Circumcision

And if you decide to do it you really should see it done first: Understanding the intact video
Circumcision methods

Ask yourself this....What other body part would you cut off of your child at birth because others do it? Is it really your right to cut any healthy part off of your child? If you had a girl and lived in a country where they circ girls would you circumcise your girls? It's a good sign that you are here. It shows you want to learn instead of being a sheep. Good for you! Now go educate your SIL. :LOL
post #28 of 55
You've gotten a lot of good responses...

I was in the same place last year and the pain issue caused me to look into circumcision. As a previous poster mentioned, just reading the descriptions in The Baby Book (Dr. Sears) and even What to Expect When You Are Expecting (mainstream) made me pause. At first I thought it was somethign that was done out of necessity and was just concerned about how much pain it caused, and how you cared for it after it was done. What I found changed my mind. I ended up not circumcising my son.

The main reason was because I did not want to cause my son pain for something that was not medically necessary. After making my decision and learning more about it I think it is crazy that I had to justify NOT removing a part of my sons body to myself, my husband, and some of my family (both side, although dh's side is Jewish).

Then almost everyone thougth it would be hard to care for. Everyone from my mom to my best friend thought I had to 'do' somethign (no one knew 'what') at every diaper change. NONONONONO It is sad to note is that MANY of the 'problems' in intact children/adults are due to parents or doctors forcibly retracting a child's foreskin-- this should never happen. Many US doctors still don't know the correct way to care for a natural intact penis and may try to do this- or may tell a parent to do this at each diaper change- this is wrong, painful, and causes infections and other problems. Almost ALL figures of 'problems' with intactness are elevated by this improper practice or doctors not familiar with intactness who choose to circ when not necessary

So think of it from another perspective.... why would anyone cut off a totally healthy and naturaly part of another person's body? There must be a pretty good reason, right? It must be essential to a child's health- the AAP even states "Since circumcision is not essential to a child’s health, parents should choose what is best for their child by looking at the benefits and risks. "

If you are interested in a site that compares risks of circing and intactness, here's a good one: http://www.caringforkids.cps.ca/babies/Circumcision.htm
I was surprised to see that many children who are circumcised require re-circumcising, for example.


Jessica
post #29 of 55
you have gotten tons of info.

kudos to you for taking the time to get the information beforehand.
post #30 of 55
First, congratulations on expecting your son!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Love2learn
Why do you chose not to?
I don't know anyone who has chosen not to. Is it because of the pain?
Well, we chose not to for many reasons, most of which have already been mentioned, but just in case:

1. Our son's body is his own -- we wouldn't pierce his ears or have him tattooed without his permission, so why on Earth would we remove a part of his body (especially his penis!) without it? We agreed that if he grows up and decides he'd like to be circumcized after all, we'll pay for the surgery.

2. It's incredibly painful while healing. I have two younger brothers, both of whom are circumcized, and I remember very vividly their screams of pain during urination for several days after the procedure. I also remember how red and raw their poor penises looked. I could never do that to my child.

3. My husband is a physician, and he was adamant that our son stay intact. There is no medical reason to circumcize. Chronic infections are almost always due to bad hygiene, so if you change and bathe your son regularly there's no reason to fear problems fo this sort.

Quote:
My SIL asked if we were going to circumcise and I told her I don't know yet. (I need to learn about it, I have no clue about either side)
She then tells me how unhealthy it is to not circumcise and how when he gets married, an uncircumcised penis will hurt the woman during sex?!?!?
Your SIL is terribly misinformed. Foreskin is exactly that -- skin -- and can in no way hurt anyone during intercourse. In addition, being intact can actually enhance a man's pleasure.

Quote:
Also , most of my friends (Christians) mention, "Well, it's in the Bible"
Circumcision is a Hebrew rite of passage, not a Christian one. Jesus was circumcized because he was Jewish.

I hope this helps. There are many folks here who have a lot more information on the subject, so you're in the right place. Good luck to you, you're in for a great adventure!
post #31 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Venice Mamacita
1. Our son's body is his own -- we wouldn't pierce his ears or have him tattooed without his permission, so why on Earth would we remove a part of his body (especially his penis!) without it? We agreed that if he grows up and decides he'd like to be circumcized after all, we'll pay for the surgery.
Let me preface this by saying that I am not being critical at all, just wondering about the thinking here and asking for comment from all.

I've often heard parents say that if their son wanted a circumcision later, they would pay for it and I wonder why.

This seems to me to be a mindset of "This is something I was obligated to do but didn't do and if he wants it later on, I am still obligated to pay for it." Now, my personal opinion is that this should not be done for a teenager because they are subject to too much peer pressure and are not equiped with enough life experience to make such a needless and life long decision and a prudent parent will refuse this until the child becomes an adult and can presumably make the decision from a more rational and informed perspective.

That being the case, would you pay for an adult child to get a tattoo or an ear piercing or breast implants or a circumcision for a daughter? None of these or a circumcision for a son is something that is necessary for the health or well being of the child and a parent has no obligation to do these to a child. I think few parents would agree to any of the procedures except a circumcision for a son. Why is that an exception?


Quote:
Chronic infections are almost always due to bad hygiene, so if you change and bathe your son regularly there's no reason to fear problems fo this sort.
Again, not to dispute you but my experience is that infection has little or nothing to do with hygiene but more often, improper care of an intact child such as forcibly retracting to clean inside the foreskin or an infection of spontaneous generation. I also believe from experience that there are few if any chronic infections that can not be permanently cleared up unless there are underlying factors such as diabetes.



Quote:
Your SIL is terribly misinformed. Foreskin is exactly that -- skin -- and can in no way hurt anyone during intercourse. In addition, being intact can actually enhance a man's pleasure.
And from personal experience and testimony of many women here and at other sites, can also enhance the pleasure of the woman partner.



Frank
post #32 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Love2learn
Why do you chose not to?
We had absolutely no reason to have it done to our son! It isn't commonly done in this country (Australia) nowdays either. Great that you are researching!
post #33 of 55

small note

Just a note on infection from our experiences--three sons, ages 15, 13, and 11--all intact--never a single infection--and believe me I did nothing special other than not allowing forceful retraction by doctors--one lady doctor did it to my first son--I was extremely angry--but it ended up not affecting him.

The only real discussion I have had with my sons about it was them thanking me for not cutting them--they thought the whole idea of it was weird.

I did a lot of research years ago--just like you are doing. Not cutting seemed the only answer to me. Search your mommy heart and go with the answer you know is right. The best advice I can give to any mommy on any issue is--trust yourself.

And congrats on the son--I loved having boys--until the teen years that is--but that is a whole other issue.

marybeth
post #34 of 55
I was in the same boat about 5 months ago when I found out I was having a boy, I did research on the internet and chose NOT too! American Academy of Pediatrics doesn't endorse circumsicion anymore, there is absolutely no medical reason to do so, this was a completely religious practice for Jewish people. I think it goes back to masturbation, losing the sensitive foreskin supposibly would make it less pleasurable to masturbate. Circumsicion is on the decline thankfully. I do not regret my decision one bit. Good luck in your quest for knowledge! ...heather
post #35 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankly Speaking
To the contrary, it is thought that man is the only specie on earth that has sex for the pure enjoyment of it.
Don't forget about dolphins!! :LOL
http://www.snopes.com/critters/wild/pleasure.htm
post #36 of 55
Sonofagun! I'm going to have to call The Discovery Channel and correct them!



Frank
post #37 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankly Speaking
I've often heard parents say that if their son wanted a circumcision later, they would pay for it and I wonder why.

This seems to me to be a mindset of "This is something I was obligated to do but didn't do and if he wants it later on, I am still obligated to pay for it." Now, my personal opinion is that this should not be done for a teenager because they are subject to too much peer pressure and are not equiped with enough life experience to make such a needless and life long decision and a prudent parent will refuse this until the child becomes an adult and can presumably make the decision from a more rational and informed perspective.

That being the case, would you pay for an adult child to get a tattoo or an ear piercing or breast implants or a circumcision for a daughter? None of these or a circumcision for a son is something that is necessary for the health or well being of the child and a parent has no obligation to do these to a child. I think few parents would agree to any of the procedures except a circumcision for a son. Why is that an exception?
Hi Frank ~ Really good points, thank you. Initially, we took this stance because we have friends in the Mid-West whose 17-year-old son was struggling with this very issue. Everyone he knew (including his father) was circumcized, and he didn't like being "different," was taunted for it, even. It was a very painful time for him. He's now almost 20 and chose not to have the surgery, but hasn't entirely ruled out the possibility, either.

Unfortunately, where we live it's not unheard of for parents to give plastic surgery (nose jobs, breast implants, etc.) as gifts for bar/bat mitvah or sweet 16 . . . but we certainly wouldn't, so your point re: circ is very well taken.

Quote:
Again, not to dispute you but my experience is that infection has little or nothing to do with hygiene but more often, improper care of an intact child such as forcibly retracting to clean inside the foreskin or an infection of spontaneous generation. I also believe from experience that there are few if any chronic infections that can not be permanently cleared up unless there are underlying factors such as diabetes.
You're absolutely right, and for the sake of brevity I didn't cover many of the other causes of chronic infection already mentioned in other posts. However, in many cases I'm personally aware of, poor hygiene is definitely an issue, and it's common in Western medicine to recommend circumcision when this is the case.

Quote:
And from personal experience and testimony of many women here and at other sites, can also enhance the pleasure of the woman partner.
Another good point, I've heard this as well. Although in my own personal experience I honestly found no difference -- positive or negative -- between an intact and circumcized penis.

Again, thank you -- great food for thought!
post #38 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Love2learn
Why do you chose not to?
I don't know anyone who has chosen not to. Is it because of the pain?
My SIL asked if we were going to circumcise and I told her I don't know yet. (I need to learn about it, I have no clue about either side)
She then tells me how unhealthy it is to not circumcise and how when he gets married, an uncircumcised penis will hurt the woman during sex?!?!?
Also , most of my friends (Christians) mention, "Well, it's in the Bible"
Anyway, I want to be well informed so where do I start reading about all of this?
I just want to reply to your question. Doctors screwed me up. I had it done when I was 8 or so. Now here I am, 39 and my penis is crooked it's been that way since I was 10. Plus when I urinate it spit's in different directions and drips for a few minutes. I also have a lot of scarring. So if I had children or my partner and I were expecting I would tell her the same thing and hope she would consider it not to be done. I couldn't put my son through what I went through. Have you ever seen a video on how they do it? My girlfriend (She posts as "AnnMarie" on here.) showed me one and it brought tears to my eyes.
post #39 of 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by jessjgh1
If you are interested in a site that compares risks of circing and intactness, here's a good one: http://www.caringforkids.cps.ca/babies/Circumcision.htm
Hey Frank!
Would you look at this for UTI and penile caner statistics?
I know you have looked into these extensively and would like to bounce this one off of you.
post #40 of 55
Oh I wanted to add that I am glad that we left our son intact. Probably most significant to me is the belief that nature knows best. But then there is always "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"

I hope everyone's response to your question has filled you up with useful information. If there are any other questions, ask away.
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