Just Say NO! - Page 2

[StarMama]

I too, had the experience of not being able to say "No!". I planned a homebirth, and had a birthplan written up in the case of being transfered. Well, since I was still using my insurance and ob for testing and such to save some $, I was there the day before my due date, and they tested my urine. Said it was +3 and therefore I had pre-eclampsia. No elevated bp, just the urine. When I was having a TON of bloody show. Blood=protein.

I was induced (well I was in early labor, dialated to 3 prior to this), given mag sulfate, put on continuious internal montioring, iv, cath, high doses of pitocin (because mag sulfate stops labor) the works. When I talked to the doctor and asked if we could do anything differently, they said no. They spoke about the risk of death to me and baby. I had to call my Dh to come, and he was so freaked out he was crying and had to have his mom drive him because he *honestly* thought I was going to DIE. You do NOT argue with doctors when you think, honest to GOD, that you are going to DIE. That your baby is going to DIE. You don't sit there and go through all the information you have researched and remember facts and figures when you think your life is at a serious risk. Hell I didn't even *think* about the bloody show = protein in the urine catch because I was bombared with "death death death". And I was educated.

I even have on video after Orion was born the nurse *admitting* that I did NOT have pre-eclampsia. So I was played as a fool and THEY KNEW IT. If they *really* thought I had pre-eclampsia I could understand all the measures they took. I mean pre-eclampsia IS a big deal. And IS life threatening. But the BS'ed me just to induce me.

I tried SO hard to stick up for myself, and I'm SO easily walked on by medical professionals. I refused an induction at THIRTY FIVE *weeks* because of my fundal height being big (uh, I'm a plus sized woman, DUH! and the measurements didn't jump from like 34 to 40 or something, it was consistant) and the doctor was going on and ON about "he's so big already, he's *already* 8 pounds, going to be HUGE if you go to term, blah blah blah". He was 7 pounds 2 ounces born ON his due date. He would have been a bitty little preemie for NO reason if I hadn't said no.

Along the same lines, AFTER his birth I was asked by no less than 5 people about circumsizing him. Even though the birth plan said no. Even though I wrote refused on the paperwork. It even got to the point where the scheduling person came in to set up a time for the doctor to come do it, and I said NO. Then the next day the person who takes the babies to do the circ came in to take him in, even with my multiple NO's! I was flabbergasted! If he had been in the bassinet, and I asleep, they would have JUST TOOK HIM. With MULTPLE refusals! You shouldn't have to FIGHT to keep your son intact!

[AnnMarie]

Originally Posted by Full Heart

Now I am a very strong generally. My fil calls me a snot nosed little brat lol. Which is why I have hbs. I am not one to sit by and be the good patient. My hospital birth I couldn't be strong anymore and there was no one to advocate for me. It does happen. Now most women I know who have this happen just don't know their options or rights. But me I did, and I still couldn't excercise them.

michelle

This is exactly what happened to me at my last birth when they wanted to give me antibiotics because I had refused to be tested for GBS while pregnant. My husband was there, but he didn't stand up for me. I wasn't in any condition at the time to fight them off. I tried, but my back up wasn't there for me. I had a hell of a time at the hospital because I refused everything for the baby. They even had the head of maternity come in and talk to me, lied to me, to get me to do what they wanted, but I refused.

It's not very easy to advocate for yourself during childbirth.

[sarajane]

So much for a woman having a right to do what she wants with her own body.

Hospitals are more like prisons. To have to fight to do what you want with your own child.

[OnTheFence]

Originally Posted by CalgonMoment

I hope this doesn't get me flamed. Please understand this is genuine confusion. I keep reading in hospital birth stories how "they" didn't "let" you do something, or how you were "made" to do something else. I have had three hospital births and they were all pretty good. I am not understanding how a hospital can make you stay in bed or make you have pitocin, or make you deliver in lithotomy position.

I can understand how you might have AROM or episiotomy without consent, but I am trying to figure out how I can politely inform my caregivers that I would consider that assault.

I don't think of myself as a major rebel, and I am fairly coherent in labor. But when my nurse didn't want to give me anything to eat or drink, I insisted that I knew the risks and was willing to assume them. I agreed to a monitor strip as a baseline, but after that told her she could monitor me by hand or forget it, because I was not getting back in that bed. And I told them that I was not going to put my feet in stirrups for birth, end of discussion.

Maybe it is just in hindsight that women feel like they were forced to do something and use those terms, but I am really wondering if women are being physically forced to labor or deliver certain ways? Please tell me your stories. I am at a different hospital this time and would like to know if this may be something I need to be prepared for.

WOO HOOOOO, someone finally said it here in this forum. Something I have wanted to say so many times before. I live in Lower Alabama where things at times are backwards and the csection rate is extremely high -- there is one hospital here that tends to be "Forgetful" or not mindful of parents wishes after the children are born, Ligmom here had her son actually circumcised without her consent and my daughter had proceedures done to her without our consent at the same hospital, but the other hospitals I have attended, I've not had this problem.
In fact, my last two OBs have been pretty laid back and given me everything I wanted in regards to how I wanted my csections handled and even my pregnancy. If I didnt want certain proceedures, testing, etc done -- I said so. I know other women who have had no problem asserting theirselves at this same hospital and getting what they want -- and I know several natural birthers who have done it and they didn't meet much if any resistance in doing so. Maybe its how you approach things. I am lucky to have a sister in the medical field and no my way around medical jargon and educated myself about things. I kind of go in, present my case and ask for what I want. I've been a labor coach several times, and only once did I have a friend get talked to into an epidural (and the OB used emotional blackmail to get her to do it)

[mandib50]

i would add that during labor a woman is in a different place emotionally and although we do say no and want to keep saying no, it wears us down to do so and keep doing so. in any other situation, we would likely be able to stand firm.

my first was a hospital birth that ended up in a c-sec. i really was given no choice about the interventions, no one informed me of the side effects or risks of certain procedures, it was just, we're going to do this now. and once that ball of intervention starts, it's pretty difficult to turn back and say no. i remember the nurse kept asking do you want drugs now, everytime she came into the room! well, by the end i agreed because i didn't know what to do or try and instead of her offering the emotional support i really would have done fine with, it was do you want the drugs now.

and then, well, flat on my back with everyone telling me to push and oh the baby's not coming and we better get the OB and then how do you say no to forceps? because i knew at that point it was all heading downhill pretty quickly to a c-sec.

i just think it's a medical profession that uses as the other posters said tactics to scare us into things, and just once one intervention starts, that necessitates another that we can't refuse.

absolutely a doula is critical for a hospital birth in my mind. me, i stayed home for the next 3!
mandi

[watermamma]

Originally Posted by Crystal_clear

This was just recently posted on the ICAN list. From a medical She was placed on a monitor, received an IV, and was started on Pitocin.

Four hours later, I delivered her healthy baby boy vaginally.

Medical Economics - Obstetrics-Gynecology - October 2000,
p. 80.

Does this OB really think SHE delivered the baby from her very own vagina!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!??????????????????? ?????? Certainly sounds like it....

On to the OP, my first was born in the hospital, and though I feel I was pretty lucky (got out of there w/out a c-section), I was railroaded into crap I did not want. It was an experience in hightened fear...fear and more fear. I was sourounded by fear from the Dr.'s to the nurses. It's allways about when are things going to go wrong... birth is so dangerous . Good for you if you are so strong as to stand up to every little thing they throw at you, but some of us I guess just aren't that strong. It's hard to fight when giving birth

[Greaseball]

If someone told me my baby was going to die if I didn't do whatever, I'd do what they wanted. It's not the responsibility of the patient to know when her doctor is lying. Doctors just should not lie.

[earthmama007]

That is the thing, we ARE strong but unfortunatly where you choose to give birth has a huge impact on your choices. What I mean is that once you go to a hospital for care you are already subjected to much more than a HB. I DO NOT think HB is the right choice for every woman. My point is that so many times we think we can work the system by writing a birth plan but that just doesn't always work.

[AnnMarie]

Originally Posted by mandib50

absolutely a doula is critical for a hospital birth in my mind. me, i stayed home for the next 3!
mandi

I agree, but even they can't stop everything. I asked for no episiotomy with my 3rd child, I had a doula, she saw the doctor going to do it, didn't say anything to me or the doctor, and it was done (A huge one mind you.).....without my permission. I was so .

[StarMama]

I had a doula as well, and while she was great about really connecting with me prior to getting an epidural (I COULD have done it without the epidural, pitocin and mag sulfate and all if I wasn't stuck in that :curse bed!), as well as practically yelling "All right! Skin to skin, coming right up!!" when Orion was born into the very bewildered nurse's hands, and lifted my gown and guided the nurse to give me my baby. But what was she going to do when the doctors LIED to me about having pre-eclampsia? I mean in a normal you-really-do-HAVE-pre-eclampsia situation that is totally one of those situations that you do NEED the hospital and the medications. She wasn't going to go to war over things we both thought of as neccisary to save my and Orion's life.

[Quindin]

After I refused to vax DS, the nurses and Drs came to my room saying that I had tested positive for Hepatites and that if I did not vax my kid he would definetely get it. I of course later found out that was not true

[earthmama007]

Originally Posted by polihaupt

After I refused to vax DS, the nurses and Drs came to my room saying that I had tested positive for Hepatites and that if I did not vax my kid he would definetely get it. I of course later found out that was not true

What the H***??? What did you say?

[Quindin]

I only found out it was not true weeks later. By then I had already been scared into having DS vaxed for Hepatites

[mezzaluna]

although my hospital birth experience went rather well, i had a few moments that helped me understand how truly hard it is to say no...

during labor everything went according to my birth plan - had a very respectful nurse, ob only came in at the very end so she didn't have time to screw up labor. ds was born quickly and healthy, and we didn't have to use pain meds or augmentation and neither was offered to me. i felt well prepared for l&d, had taken a bradley class and our doula was there with us. it's what happened next that i wasn't prepared for...

the first bit after birth was pretty idyllic - i felt total relief from the contractions, and i had my squirmy guy on my tummy, and he latched on... bliss, etc., etc. the doula took pictures and then left...

then came time to stitch me up. first of all, holy cr*p that hurt - it didn't feel like the local did anything. i started screaming in pain with every stitch and the OB got a little miffed at me. then i didn't stop bleeding, so the OB started mashing my uterus and reaching inside me to pull out blood clots. still bleeding, so she says your uterus isn't clamping down, i'm going to start pitocin. not what i envisioned, but of course i have no basis to judge how necessary it is, and i just want things to be over and done with. pitocin brings back contractions (thought i was done!! grr). well, that doesn't stop the bleeding, so she says "i'm going to give you misopristol suppositories" and next thing you know they're going in. at this point i'm lying on the bed, weak from blood and fluid loss, in pain, tired from having been in labor all night, and still bleeding heavily.... so the OB decides she may need to do a D&C... and "since you didn't have the epidural i'm afraid we have to put you under general" - so i'm put to sleep and wheeled into the OR. turns out she missed some internal tearing, and the bleeding wasn't actually from the uterus. so no D&C necessary, and i narrowly avoided needing a transfusion.

i still have no idea whether she did everything in the best way possible (though i distrust her for other reasons) so i had no way of knowing whether i should have said no to her at any step in that process. mentally and physically i had no stamina left... my doula was gone, and i had no real training in post-partum complications. so i had to trust the OB's judgement.

i think my l&d went well because of a combination of education and luck, and my post-partum issues were hard because of a lack of education and lack of luck... and anyone can run short on luck... or not be educated about the ins and outs of every potential complication and not have the time/energy/support to hash things out in the moment (like the fake pre-e story of a PP)

[cmb123]

Originally Posted by mezzaluna

the first bit after birth was pretty idyllic - i felt total relief from the contractions, and i had my squirmy guy on my tummy, and he latched on... bliss, etc., etc. the doula took pictures and then left...

)

Your doula LEFT before you were stitched up and finished with everything??!!!!! That is absolutely inexcusable!!!!!!!!
As a doula myself, I'm ticked at that...a story like that makes us look bad.
She should have stayed with you until you were totally settled.

[mandib50]

Originally Posted by AnnMarie

I agree, but even they can't stop everything. I asked for no episiotomy with my 3rd child, I had a doula, she saw the doctor going to do it, didn't say anything to me or the doctor, and it was done (A huge one mind you.).....without my permission. I was so .

you are right, they can't stop everything and some of them i know don't even advocate for their client. which is why i personally chose a homebirth, but i think the advantage doula's offer is that they can provide the emotional and physical support women do need during labor in hopes to avoid intervention. i'm sorry your doula did not seem to help you in the way you needed.

however, i think the big issue is why has intervention become so commonplace and why do we accept it so easily? sigh. doula's and midwives can't change that, only the consumer, and there are certainly no easy answers.

mandi

[onlyboys]

According to the doula class I just took, doulas are not supposed to advocate for the woman, but rather, through education and support empower the woman to advocate for herself. According to my instructor, this included seeing an OB reaching for the episiotomy scissors. A doula's response to that is NOTHING.



Needless to say, that didn't fly too well with my MW class.

[cmb123]

[QUOTE= According to my instructor, this included seeing an OB reaching for the episiotomy scissors. A doula's response to that is NOTHING.

:.[/QUOTE]

It is not the doula's place to speak for the mother, and yes, a doula's job is to empower the mother to speak for herself absolutely true. That does NOT mean do nothing if you see Dr. reaching for the scissors! What I have done (successfully many times) is say LOUDLY..."Jane, it looks like Dr. Jerkhead is getting ready to do an episiotomy, is that OK with you?"
At that point, the Dr really has no choice but to STOP and wait for an answer.
It works like a charm. I have only had ONE client ever recieve an episotomy in 7 years, and only because she said "yes".

As for the other post I had about the doula leaving..I wasn't suggesting that the doula could have stopped a procedure necessarily, but a mom needs support through the entire process, including stitches and any post birth events. It's just plain wrong to leave.

[ramlita]

just wanted to add...

Our 'fight or flight' response can have a huge effect on labor-
it's supposed to.

A mammal in labor in the wild, when threatened or frightened, will find labor stops so that she can run, fight, or hide, and only when she feels safe and hidden will she birth her baby.

We are not made to fight and birth at the same time.
We should not have to do both at once.

Ina May Gaskin and Michel Odent have addressed this much more eloquently.

Nothin but homebirth with a patient, hands-off midwife for me, thanks!

[sarajane]

We are not made to fight and birth at the same time.
We should not have to do both at once.

I totally agree. I like your comparison to the wild animals too. I read one of the Bradley books and he compared birthing women to birthing animals alot. How they go in a dark place away from everyone. They get as secluded as possible so they don't have any interruptions.