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AP/permissiveness what's the difference?  

post #1 of 8
Thread Starter 
Can we talk about and clarify the difference between a postive discipline/AP style of parenting, and outright permissiveness? I know there's a difference, but I find it difficult to explain to other people what the difference is.

Here's the situation: I care for a friend's 3 year old daughter once a week. He has just gone through an ugly divorce, he only has the child three days a week, and he feels really guilty about having to leave her for one of those three days to work. As a consequence of this guilt, he lavishes a lot of material things like books and fancy toys on her, and is really inclined to let her do whatever she wants. He does not really attempt to discipline at all. I think he's anxious that she should like him better than Mommy...

Anyway, the child descends on my house like a hurricane every Monday, and I'm finding it really hard to deal with caring for her plus my own daughter who is 5 months old and moderately high-need. And when I try and set limits for the child, she cries, and then my friend gets mad at me. His point was that "I thought you were AP. I don't think it's right for you to make daughter cry. If she needs something, she should have it, and not have to cry for it."

All of which sounds very AP, yes, but there's a difference between letting a child bang on your expensive piano or smack your 5 month old daughter, because stopping her would make her cry, and letting a child cry alone at night. Don't you think?

I hear about so many AP parents who make themselves absolute doormats for their children, and are then surprised to find themselves exhausted and burnt out, and they don't understand that as parents they have the responsibility to be the adult, and to step in and take charge when necessary. Children NEED limits and guidance just as much as they need love, affection, and attention.

I would really to hear other people's thoughts on this...
post #2 of 8
Well, I think you know what the difference is. IMO, this says it all:

Quote:
"I thought you were AP. I don't think it's right for you to make daughter cry. If she needs something, she should have it, and not have to cry for it."
Yes, if she truly needs something you should be helping her to get it. BUT, she does not *need* to bang on your piano. She definately does not *need* to hit a five month old baby.

She needs love. She needs support in becomming a good person. She needs food and clothing and hugs.

If she cries to drink bleach does your friend think you should give it to her? What's the difference?

As adults, we have to help our children determine not only what they need, but what is best for them (IMO).
post #3 of 8
To answer your question, I think the difference is age-appropriate limits, enforced with respect. Permissiveness means not setting any limits and letting the child do whatever he/she wants. Gentle discipline means understanding and meeting a child's needs, including the need for limits, and then enforcing said limits with respect for the child and his/her ability, age, and circumstances.
post #4 of 8
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evan&Anna's_Mom
To answer your question, I think the difference is age-appropriate limits, enforced with respect. Permissiveness means not setting any limits and letting the child do whatever he/she wants. Gentle discipline means understanding and meeting a child's needs, including the need for limits, and then enforcing said limits with respect for the child and his/her ability, age, and circumstances.
Yeah, what she said
post #5 of 8
Well, there is a difference but I agree it can be tough to explain it well (at least it is for me...) lol.

Many people consider my husband and I permissive parents. Our children are free to watch what they wish to on TV, listen to whatever music they like, eat what they want and when, decide when to sleep, what clothes to wear, and what to do with their hair for themselves. It's a whole big respectful guidance thing, mixed with alot of talking about everything, from the time they were very little.

We certainly did not encourage the hitting of anyone, let alone babies... but worked through why we think that isn't respectful, and how to handle being angry. It sounds as though your friend isn't sure how to do those kind of things, which is why he doesn't recognize you doing them either and mistakes it for you just picking on his kid. Maybe you could just say "AP is full of respect for children. I am not sure it's respectful to <the child> to just ignore her struggles with anger and hitting when we could be helping her to work through it." Or something like that....
post #6 of 8
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnschoolnMa
We certainly did not encourage the hitting of anyone, let alone babies... but worked through why we think that isn't respectful, and how to handle being angry. It sounds as though your friend isn't sure how to do those kind of things, which is why he doesn't recognize you doing them either and mistakes it for you just picking on his kid. Maybe you could just say "AP is full of respect for children. I am not sure it's respectful to <the child> to just ignore her struggles with anger and hitting when we could be helping her to work through it." Or something like that....
What she said.

My parenting style would be labelled by many as "permissive," although that's not the word I would use (semantics!). Even though I believe very strongly that children should be treated respectfully, as equal members of the household, I am well aware that my son, no matter how bright he is, is two years old. At this point, he needs a lot more of my help making decisions than he will in the future, and he needs a lot more guidance to learn the rules which govern himself, his family, and his community. As his parent, it's my job to see that he learns those things, and that he has the tools he needs to become a functional member of society. How can he decide to ask for spinach rather than candy, if he never sees me do it and he never learns that spinach is healthier? How can he learn that it's wrong to hit his sister on the head with a truck to get her attention, unless we discuss it? And how can he learn a more constructive way to deal with his anger if he doesn't see one modelled and hear discussions about it?

The way I see it, attachment parenting is for infants and very young children, because it's doing things to foster attachment to the child; older children don't generally need to be worn in slings 20 hours a day or to nurse every hour on the hour (although BeanBean might beg to differ ) to foster strong connections to their parents. What they need from their parents, in order to grow and develop, is a system which they can understand. In my house, that system is based on Taking Children Seriously. In others, it's based on Gentle Discipline. Whichever way you do things, there is a system and a rationale behind it all which the children will, eventually, come to understand and (hopefully) appreciate.

No, I don't approve of my son trying to bite his sister. I don't believe in time out (although lately he's been asking for them-- he gets overstimulated and asks to sit in a chair by himself for time out) and I don't believe in hitting the kids. When he hurts her, I talk with him about it, and I try to figure out why he did it. Ideally, I prevent the situation from occurring (and it does happen much less frequently now that I know what his triggers are). My goal is to find a common preference, something which we can both agree to. He likes to scream, so I asked him to scream at a pillow. He loved that, and my ears weren't ringing at the end of the day. Today, when he started to scream, I told him to go scream at Sailor Moon (the character on the pillow case) and instead of screaming he walked into the bedroom and sat down and talked to Sailor Moon for a good 5 minutes about what had happened. Then he came out and said "I told Sailor Moon all about it!" He was pleased, and once again I went through a whole day without my ears ringing once. Even at two, BeanBean can appreciate a common preference; everyone is happy, and life is all good.
post #7 of 8
Quote:
Originally Posted by eilonwy
What they need from their parents, in order to grow and develop, is a system which they can understand. In my house, that system is based on Taking Children Seriously. In others, it's based on Gentle Discipline. Whichever way you do things, there is a system and a rationale behind it all which the children will, eventually, come to understand and (hopefully) appreciate.

I agree... great way to handle the screaming desire. My son had a screaming rock lol. We TCS as well.
post #8 of 8
There is a huge difference between AP and permissiveness. AP is about taking a child's emotional needs seriously. Permissiveness is about letting them do and have whatever they want to.

Kids are not going to be happy all the time (no one is happy all the time). The goal of AP shouldn't be to make the child continually happy. There is a massive difference between taking a child's feelings and point of view seriously and doing whatever it takes to keep them from crying.

My advice to have to heart to heart with your friend and explain that there have to be some ground rules or you can't watch the little girl. She can't hit anyone. She can't bang on the piano, etc. He needs to accept that you will use GD to guide her to more appropriate behavoir, and he needs to back you up. Kids pick up on things easily and as long as daddy thinks she should be allowed to do whatever she wants she will be horrid to be around.
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