Would you trade in my life for this?

[stretchmark]

Hi, I am editing this post 'cause no one is replying

I am trying to compare the sustainable factors of these two choices I have.

I currently live in a 1,400 sq foot home that is made from adobes. It's old and very not sustainable aside from being built from dirt.
We are on town utilities and it would be hard to convert to being off the grid.

The plus side of where we are is that we are right in the center of town and everything is within walking distance or a short drive away. We save gas, have friends over easily, go on nice family walks, etc. We have very gardenable land here with some grass (most of Taos is dirt or sagebrush) and we have a great location.

I dislike living here because the house needs so much work to turn it into a place that I would really love. The floors are cold as they are on a crawl space. There are all sort of drafts and our mortgage is high. The space is not ideal for what I would create if I had the option.

Another plus is that the house is gaining pretty good value every year being in the historic district.

We are in debt pretty good with the CCs and I am so temped to do the following:

Dhs business has two somewhat remote acres 3 miles off the main road with no electicity and no other homes yet. It is our of town which would mean further driving (but not by a whole lot). It would also mean less people stopping by and visiting us and we would miss our neighbors. Our friends have a school bus that they fixed up with wood floors, carpet, solar panels, kitchen sink, pantry, living area with wood stove, etc that they lived in for about the past 3 years with their little baby and while they built their straw bale house. They are selling it (it runs really well too) this spring when their house is done.
It is super nice maybe even nicer than my house since it is a small space and was completely "built" just a couple years ago.

We could sell our house, buy their bus, move it to the land, and start building the house we want to live in.

The two acres is not the best farming land but could easily be made that way with some compost brought in. The views out there are incredible but there are no trees (like we have here). We could esentially pay off our CCs, buy the bus, put in a well, and start work on the house with the profits off our house.
Dhs salary is going up a bit and we could use the money to build our house instead of making citibank rich.

DH is a builder and has lots of natural building experience which would keep the cost down too but make the project go on for longer since he works all day.

Anyhow, I guess I am comparing the sustainability factor of living close to everything in a not-so-sustainable enviornment vs. moving and building a really sustainable enviornment but being further away from everything.

Tell me what you think.

[opally]

That's a hard choice. I would be mightily tempted to head out and build your home - it sounds like an incredible opportunity. The one thing that would hold me back is that I'm such a social creature - we live right in the heart of a city, next to everything too, and as much as I pine away for an isolated off the grid goat farm, the lack of friends popping by, get togethers at the library, etc. would drive me batty in short order. Also with my kids - extremely social, and just not the type to be content to live far from friends and school. That might not apply to you, or you might already have a solid social support system in place out of town. One other down point is with your dh working all day, you might be in that bus for a long, long time to come - it sounds like a great space, so that might not be a bad thing, but just make sure to be realistic about it - some close friends did a gut rehab to their house, under similar conditions (dh a builder and DIY'er) and it took them years longer than they thought, even with moving completely out of the house for 2 years.

Those are the only con's I can think of, and the pro's would make a pretty long list - a home that really speaks to you and your ideals. If it feels like a good fit through & through, then make that jump. It's a wonderful thing to have the equity in your current house to finance your dreams.

[gottaknit]

Just from an environmental standpoint, I think fixing up an existing house to function more sustainably (rather than building new) is the ultimate in recycling.

Since your home in increasing in value, have you considered taking out a home equity loan/line of credit to make improvements on your house and pay off your credit card debt? The interest would be tax deductable (unlike cc debt), you would be investing back into the home and further increasing it's value.

Another thing about living in the country is that no matter what your good intentions, it almost always means more driving. And as the pp mentioned, you'd definitely be taking a hit in the social life area, and who knows how long you'd be living on that bus...

People talk a lot about "living off the grid", and I don't understand why this is necessarily better. Whether your water comes from the city or a well, you're still using water. Wells are expensive to dig and they can be a gamble as far as supply and quality...

[OceanMomma]

We kinda did the same thing. We lived in a very nice old kauri cottage on a small piece of land in town where it was warm. We had a mortgage & all our home comforts along with the large cc bill. We moved way down south into a cold windy coastal environment in a icky little grotty house. My dh is also a builder & we are building a new house weekends & holidays while we live in the grotty house. There are good points & bad points & sometimes I do think we should have stayed put as it was definitely easier. However, it is a great adventure & if I concentrate on the journey rather than the goal it is fine. I will ultimately end up with the most beautiful home, worth wildly in excess of what we could have afforded outright. The climate where we are is a tad wild at times but it is different every day so I am appreciating that. I have the most amazing sea views & a patch of native bush to romp in which I love. The kids have ponies & I can keep chickens. We've made new friends. I also only live 30 mins drive from town so it is no prob to get to civilisation if I need to.

As to the environmental issues with building a new house. We're using untreated macrocarpa which came from old farm shelter belts. It's not a native tree so no probs there. Also cob which is earth from our foundations. Almost all the doors, windows & flooring are from demo yards. The only bad bit was the concrete for the foundations. Due to the fact we're on a slip zone they had to be very big. I may have thought twice about the whole cob thing had I know about the foundations in advance but we were pretty much most of the way thru the plans when the engineer looked at them.

I've looked into solar & wind power but right now they are both way too pricey for us. I am going to experiment with home made technology & things like solar water tanks in the roof & solar cookers first. We're also putting in a wood stove with a wet back which will help with power use.

If you love an adventure & don't live in the past ie lots of "if only..." type things, it will be well worth doing. You also need to have a good relationship with your partner as it is a very small area to live in & you wil no doubt get quite stressed on occasion if progress on the new home is slow.

[stretchmark]

I hear you all. It is a hard decision.

DH even thinks it is an option to rent our current house and do this too. That way we could always move back if we missed town and friends and would still be upping the equity in our house.

It's a thought.

I am not sure I agree that fixing this house is the ultimate recycling as mentioned above. I see your point for sure, I just think that passing it along to another person is just as good since there are always people in need of housing.

The thing of "being off the grid" that everyone gets so excited about is probably two things, 1 being the enviornment and 2 being money.
'
While the cost to set up these systems is pricey in the beginning, they can easily pay off over the years. I looked at our gas bill lsat month and it was 86.00. Only about 35.00 of that was gas, the rest was service fee, gas-line maintenace fee, state tax, city tax etc. It is ridiculous. The same goes for our water and electric.

Just to add here that DH and I met at a community that was 40 minutes from town and we lived in an 18 foot yurt with no water and one light. There was a separate kitchen and washhouse for all our needs. We half-way know what we'd be getting in to, (we had no kids then).

I'm somewhat social but the area we'd be moving to has several country communities near it and DDs best friend and my best friend (her mother) live out there.

I know that older kids want to be close to the action and while Taos has little action, town is better to them than stars and mountain views.

I am really going to have to think about it.

I think that if our CCs were paid off and money wasn't such a stress, I would be happier here knowing that we didn't have to eat beans and rice to pay the mortgage when the funds weren't coming in.

I kind of am a "if only" or "what if" person sometimes. I have yet to make a life decision that I really disliked, usually I am bummed that I got sick of my wardrobe and donated it to the thrift shop

I wish it were more obvious and I am going to take the time to feel this out seriously. I am going to hope that it becomes clearer to me what to do and then pray to have the patience to see whatever it is through to the end while enjoying the journey.

BTW, Taos is zoned rural/agricultural which means that even though I am right in town, I can have chickens. sheep, goats, horses, the works as long as everything is properly maintained, (as in cleaning chicken coop regularly so no odors bother neighbors).

With that all said, I appreciate all of your input. I'll keep you updated.
Maybe I'll be in my bus complaining about the flies buzzing around while I try to chat with you all.

Peace!

[IslandMamma]

Whatever you do sounds like it would be exciting and full of possibility! If you stay "on the grid", you always have a choice to to a grid-tied, "net metering" system, too.

To address anothter poster, while cost is a factor, I like to think about the value-added cost of our choices, too... kind of like assigning out environmental assets and qualities a monetary value. It really gives a broader picture of "cost". Paul Hawken's book, "Natural Capitalism" has some great info on the idea, and has expanded my thinking hugely. Hunter S. Lovins is another great resource on true environmental costs.

Stretch, your DH is right, too. That does seem like it could be a bit of a win-win, and a good investment. There's no shortage of people wanting to live in Taos, that's for sure, and if a house is going to built, why not make it an ecologically sensitive one?

That said, I would *personally* renovate the existing structure. Being closer to market and cultural centers and such sounds personally appealing to me. (But perhaps that's my sometimes lonely perspective living in the absolute boonies!)

[stretchmark]

Well, DH and I chatted about it tonight and are brainstorming more seriously than before. I guess what I need to figure out is what my full intention is here.

I am so afraid of giving up this house as it has become my home despite all its quirks. I have buried my DDs placenta in the yard and all sorts of things have happened here.

In reality, I hated this house when we bought it and hated it for at least the first year while DH was remodelling it (hard to live in a remodel) and I still just hate things about it. I think I am a passionate person and when I feel things, I feel them deeply. Instead of being annoyed with the house, I literally hate it. I love it too, like I said, it's close to everything, I can forget eggs at the store and just zip over there and get some more. We bought it on a whim, DH was sure it was a good investment but I wasn't very attracted to it. Then we got in it and it had no insullation, plumming problems, and I literally was in ugg boots, mittens, and a sweater starting the morning fire. The house is actually colder than it is outside most the time since the adobe slows the movement of heat down, it can warm up in the afternoon and be nice and sunny and I am inside with the fire raging. Kind of crazy.

I think I need to go over to personal growth and chat about all the other factors involved with this decision because it goes beyond sustainability for me.

I think in the end I just want it all and maybe cannot have it all. I want to rent this house while we build another and then decide after that if I want to keep this house or not. I know I am rambling I just need to say that finding and buying this house was quite a rarity, the woman was selling quickly, her husband was on drugs and she sold it cheaply. There was a line of buyers but we knew the realtor and he let us in the office at 8:00AM. I think making decisions is usually clearer to me and that is why this is so hard, even having a second child was an easy decision.

Anyhow, I let you all know how it goes.

[bamboogrrrl]

Stretchmark - That sounds like a really fun potential adventure! When we bought our first home, I hated ours too. After we had a neighborhood tragedy, I stopped trying to like it and we moved. The best thing we ever did, because now I loooove where we live.

Would selling your digs put you in a situation where you would be completely debt free? Would you be able to build a new home and "pay as you go" or would you have to remortgage? If you would not be in a significantly better place financially, maybe it's not so great to switch horses midstream and sell your house. Beware of renting - a bad renter could trash your house! A friend of mine will eventually build a home in AZ, and there's some famous straw bale lady who can use anyone's site to teach a class, and they build your house for you - all you have to do is feed the class. What about selling the land and make some renovations to your current digs to make it more to your liking...

Maybe a camping trip is in your immediate future. Bring your family and a tent to the land outside of town, camp out for a weekend, and see how the place feels.

Good luck with it!

[stretchmark]

I like your idea about camping bamboogrrl. That would really give me a feel for the land and waking up there, going to sleep there, etc. Since my good friend owns the bus, I could even ask if we could borrow it for the weekend to get a real taste.

I am half wondering if you could be referring to my friend in Arizona who leads women building straw bales workshops. She does these amazing vaults and empowers women to build.
I would need a significantly larger structure than one of her vaults but maybe she does more than I am aware of.

Here is what the financial situation would be if we got for the house what it is worth: We would sell house, pay off all 4 : credit cards, pay off line of credit, pay off student loan and walk away with roughly 37,000.00 not enough to build a super nice house but certainly enough to get started with. And with DH still getting paid a good salary, we would be saving 900$ a month in mortgage, 60$ in gas bills, 60 in electric, 40 in water/sewer, 20 in phone etc.
Of course there would be new expenses like propane for the propane tanks and water for the water tank. I'm sure I would want to upgrade a few things on the bus initially to make it to my comfort level with 4 people in it. We would still need wood in the winter and so on.

So I don't think I would be jumping off the horse mid-stream.

If we had no other debt, we would walk away with 75,000.00 : :

So that's the deal.
Today I was so thankful for our property and the trees and the sound of the birds, things that wouldn't be in existence out there. I do live across the way from an on again off again drug dealer and thus far he has given us no trouble but I have had to call the cops for all sorts of yelling and screaming, and my other neighbor called them when he heard gun shots at 2 AM. Kind of scarry. I just keep praying he will get arrested and lose his property.

I know it must seem like a no brainer after that bomb I just dropped but still it isn't. We are putting up a fence for my birthday present so that we don't have to see his house anymore.

I just wish I could show you all the diference in land types. Taos is so abundant in landscapes. There is the old marshy area that is now really lush, there is the agricultural land, there is the forested land, there is the dry desert mesa, and there are combinations.
I rarely hear of people giving up agricultural land for the desert land but some people here wouldn't live anywhere else but the desert land. They love to xeriscape and love the views. I'm sure they hate the wind and dust which is terrible out there some months of the year.

Anyhow, let's keep this dialogue going 'cause I am still on the fence.

[bamboogrrrl]

In some ways, we are in a similar situation, but we've come to a temporary decision about what to do. Like you, our home has appreciated tremendously, and we toyed with the idea of selling, and moving further north to find cheaper digs. "Cashing out" so to speak. But we love our home, and dh has built a thriving little business here, so we're gonna stay for now. I would love to buy a little farm, but everything we've looked at either has a great house or a great barn, but never both. And we've seen some hideous houses!

There are some hard questions to ask yourself. If you were going to cash out of your home, you'd have to take a long hard look at whether your debt habits would change. It wouldn't make any sense to cash out with the same habits, and rack up debt again. And if you got a chunk o' change from selling your house, you'd want to take some of the proceeds and start an emergency fund (3-6 months worth of expenses), which would leave you with even less to get started on a new house. What would your long term plans be on the three acres? How long would you want to live on the bus? DH has an old schoolbus that has been converted into a camper, and I'm not sure how long we could live in it without breaking each other's legs. But you live in a place where everyone could be outside a lot of the time. If you lived this scenario for a few years, you could seriously bank some cash. Or you could also hang onto your house, pay down some debt, and take advantage of possibly higher equity (theoretically - that IS a risk) and less debt to pay with sale proceeds.

Anyway, I'm thinking out loud...or typing out loud rather.

[Earth Angel]

hey stretch mark....i'm in taos too!!!!!

We used to own a home in TP and sold it last winter and are now in valle escondido. dh built this home while working full time in 6 mo....and we had a new baby in april....we made it but it was a really difficult time....you can certainly do it though!!!!

i'm not sure where your land is....but i can say that not having trees and living on more desert land was hard for us.....but there are benefits also.

we have always lived out of town and really like it. once in a while t he drive is a hassle....and we certainly don't like using the gas....but we really value the more rural life for our kids and ourselves...

it is a hard decision you are trying to make....but you will be shown the way....just put it out there and keep your heart and your eyes open.

[stretchmark]

Hi all, I am sick today and am going to be sort for now.

Earth Angel, We are right in town now off a main road with no traffic passing by so it doesn't get much better than that.

The land we have the option of moving to is sort of on Hondo Mesa but you go west instead of North at the Old Blinking Light to get there. It's the street before Tune Drive.

[meco]

I would build that house.

But really it depends on whats important, what you want from it and what you desire most

[stretchmark]

OK, I'm back. Still sick but want to type.

Just wanted to add that I am really aware that our spending habits would need to change in order to make the plan of moving work.

Just to redeem myself I wanted to say that 16,000 of that debt was a loan from in-laws for a down payment on our house, 9,000 of it I married into, and mostly the rest is from when DD was born 14 weeks early and we moved to Albuquerque. A tiny bit of it is frivilous spending and 6,000 was for tools that DH needed to start his business.

Like I think I was getting at in my OP, our spending is not so crazy. We have noticed how we start to make more money and thus we say, "Hey, we can now afford to go out to eat." or simmilar things and so our spending has gone up when our income has gone up instead of paying down the CCs and such.

We are much more aware now and are making small goals for ourselves. I am just making it a point to send all extra money weekly to the CCs and am putting a bit into savings when we deposit money on Fridays. This way we can know that there is an emergency fund in the works and the CCs are going down. They are all chopped-up and out of use now. (Sounds more like a finances thread huh?) Anyhow, part of this motivation to move is financial and part is a more wholesome/sustainable life.



Someone way above mentioned that fixing this house is the ultimate recycling and I disagreed. I know exactly what they mean and am starting to see that this may be a good idea. I just really hate that our water bill for example, was 40.00 last month and only 10.00 was actual water. The sewer and recycling and tax this and tax that drive it way up. It is so frusterating and makes me want to be responsible for my own water.

I am reading the tighwad gazette right now and am really having a change of heart and mind in regards to money. I just needed to see clearly how out of control these interest rates actually are and what we could be doing instead of making the CCs richer.

I think we are going to stay put for now with the option of moving whenever we want. Our house is still in need of a bit of work and I am just going to try and enjoy all the quirks about it. We can always sell it later and move. I'd hate to move to new land now with the spring coming, I already have gardens here.

[Earth Angel]

I was thinking of you yesterday when I drove through town....I work near you I think (across from Enos Garcia Elementary). It would be really difficult for me to leave a nicely treed property with grass...and gardens for land like that on the hondo mesa....even though that land is nice as well, just in different ways. Dh and I realized that the land is more important to us than the house since we spend so much time outside. We had pinon on our property in TP and lots of beautiful gardens....but the sun was so strong in the summer you really didn't want to be outside during the main part of the day....especially with the kiddos.....This was just one thing we didn't like about our land out there....The views were great but Dh and I just like trees.. and wetter property in general. You can always fix/tweak your house (especially since you have a handy Dh like mine) but you can't change the land your house is on KWIM????

The other thing is that your place is in a location where you could make a lot of money off of it if you finish the repairs especially since you said you got a great deal on it initially.....The more money you make off of your current house the more you have to put into the new place.

Maybe the other option is starting slowly on your new house while still living in your current one....like when you have extra money (yeah right....extra money... I know!!!) put it into your new house

Sounds like you made your decision for the moment....it is akways fun to dream about your options though!!!!

[stretchmark]

How funny :LOL I live really close to Enos Garcia, just past valverde on Martinez.
It's about a 5 minute walk.

I hear you about the not being able to go out in the summer out in Hondo unless you have a porch or some sort of shade.

My friends built a little outside play area that was covered and their current house has a huge porch.

I went out this morning to chop kindling and the birds were chirping. I thought how there are no birds out on the mesa. While some people are sucessful getting trees to grow out there, it is hard to do with the wind whipping them around all day.

It's just nice to think about saying goodbye to the dern bill companies but I am not going to sacrifice the good thing we have going here. It took a bit of time to see that it is a good thing and I'm sure that every now and then I will need reminding once again. I think the fence is going to help with the drunk drug dealer and will certainly make me happier about the neighbor who sued us. We will just create our own private space back here finally after 3 years. That makes me feel good.

Anyhow, thanks everyone.

[Earth Angel]

You'll be amazed at the wonder of a fence....its like making your own little secret garden!!!

The other thing I learned after all of our moving, building, disatisfaction with Taos etc....No situation is ever perfect...there are just those that suit you better than others.

[Rainbowbird]

My situation was somewhat similar to yours last year. We lived in a log cabin that we loved on 11 acres. We heated with wood which we cut off our land. We had lots of room for a garden, etc. I always liked the notion that if need be, I could get some chickens and a cow and be even more self-sufficient (I grew up on a farm so it's not that far-fetched an idea for me!).

But, our house was small and our family was growing. Also, I did not like living so far away from everything (12 miles at least). If I wanted to go to anywhere social or interesting, it was a drive. Granted I enjoyed the countryside, hiking, biking, walking with baby, etc. But most of our friends lived some distance away.

We debated whether to add on to our house or to move. In the end, we moved and I am really happy we did. We live close to our town center in a bigger house (still have a wood stove though) We don't have 11 acres, but we do have a lovely yard and neighborhood. I can walk to the town center. The community center is 1 mile away. We are also less than 1 mile from a university with many attractions, including a dairy farm, ice cream parlor, theatre, etc. Our friends are just 5 to 10 min. away and we now have friends in the neighborhood. Oh, and we cut our gasoline bill by half almost immediately!

So in a way, we are more sustainable here b/c we rely less on oil and can walk and bike to many places. There are also many delivery services available here, which I think are more sustainable...one truck going to many houses in an area, rather than many cars driving to the supermarket! For example, the local dairy delivers our milk every week. And I get a grocery delivery when I need it.

If you read up on sustainability and the ills of urban sprawl, you may find that city life or at least close-to-small-town-life is really quite sustainable in terms of saving fuel and energy. Plus we are not ruining the landscape and wilds which should be reserved for the wildlife. James Howard Kunstler is a good place to start to find out more. I think he has a website but do a google on his name and you'll find lots.

Good luck with your decision. I think in your case it comes down to a) how much you hate your house and b) how important it is NOT to be isolated. Let us know what you do!

[stretchmark]

I do know that not all situations aren't perfect. I am always unhappy with something.

After really mulling over this today here is what my decision is:
Stay in our house, insullate roof better, replace front wall with glass for solar gain, start catching water, insullate floor where possible, keep working at creating our beautiful garden and yard, get rid of the ugly things like the blue carpet in the bedrooms. (DH is framing in a wall with big windows tomorrow which will re-open the room we made into his workshop and add a ton of light and heat to it, this should make things feel better really soon), & just in general keep working towards a more enjoyable sustainable life here in town.
I am super excited about this fence which is going up for my birthday on the 23rd.
On the land far out there, I feel like we can begin work slowly on a get-away-type house that is very rustic and very cheap that we can either retreat in or eventually move into if we do decide this isn't the best. But seriously after doing this thread and thinking about it and writing about it, I am very grateful to be here in my home.
I am going to bury DSs placenta this summer with another fruit tree and we are going to really watch our finances and make them a priority.
It feel great.

Thank you all for posting, it really had an impact on getting me to think about this very deeply and now I am finally settling into my desire and truth.

Thanks, couldn't have done it without you all.

[love2all]

Wow- you are almost LUCKY that this is your dilema!!!
We cannot even get a mortgage to buy something of our own. But we do own three acres in Placitas and lived there for a few years bUT the road is sooooo bad that it is impassable for most vechicles when it is super-maintained that is- now after being gone for a rew years nothing can drive up it..
so for now we live in nc in a rented house of 600 sq feet- 5 of us- and are at a point in our lives where in we wonder what we should do...
i like your idea of renting out one house and livingi in the bus- i seriously miss living close to the land- it feels so healthy for kids toexperience thst lifestyle..