Need DH/DP perspective type birth stories...

[Desdamona]

The subject line says it all. Dh and I are talking about it right now and he's being halfway open/receptive. He's skeptical though so I need to be able to show him a man's view of unattended births. Especially one's where the man has come from the opposite end of the spectrum to embrace unattended birth.

TIA.

[rainbowmoon]

have you seen this?
http://www.unassistedhomebirth.com/fathers/

[Desdamona]

Thanks for that link... I saw it WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY back when I first started exploring HB. I used one of the points I used to reason with DH about HB -- "...why would your husband want a strange man (or woman) between his wife's naked legs feeling up her private parts...." It was a huge point of contention since I always felt as though by consenting to all the VE's during our 2nd childs birth was the gateway intervention to the snowball effect that landed us in the OR.

We talked for a good hour (on and off -- I knew if I pushed too hard that he would stop being open) and he's still skeptical. But to even have the conversation, I'll give him a big gold star. The most positive note is that he agrees that he will NOT call the MW until I tell him to, *if* I tell him to. That he'll not go behind my back and call when I get in an active labor pattern. It's a small step, but it's a step in the right direction. I still have 3 months to work on him.

[sprinkle pocket]

you know, lynn greismmer's book unassisted homebirth (or childbirth, whichever isn't laura shanley's book) has a whole section of dh birth stories. it was neat to read them to my dh. it was neat for me to hear uc stories from a man's perspective after hearing so much about birth from women.

[midwyfmomma]

"...why would your husband want a strange man (or woman) between his wife's naked legs feeling up her private parts...." It was a huge point of contention since I always felt as though by consenting to all the VE's during our 2nd childs birth was the gateway intervention to the snowball effect that landed us in the OR.

IMO.... it's very important to have a careprovider that you trust, that will listen to you, and that will assist you in the experience YOU want! I'm a midwife and I do not usually do VE's...unless requested by the mom or if there seems to be a lack of progress where the information from a VE would be beneficial to what mom could do to help birth her baby.

It is possible to have a midwife present for your birth, but to not be interruptive... you just have to find the right one and be specific about what you want. I love attending births where the mom & dad do everything & I'm basically on stand-by or just assisting the mom & dad with things that will make them both comfortable or taking pictures.

It is important that your husband feels comfortable. His nervous energy would not benefit you during your beautiful birth. Sounds like you have a midwife already?? if you haven't I'd suggest that both you & your husband talk to her about your concerns & desires for uninterrupted birth. And gather all the information you can about UC like you're doing. I considered UC with my husband who was all for it, but I decided to have a trusted midwife assist us. In retrospect my husband was very happy to have our midwife present! She was wonderful... no VE's, gently listened to our baby's heartbeat a couple times and was a great addition to our baby's birthday party!

Many blessings to you and your family!

[Desdamona]

I absolutely agee... BUT where I live there are 3 HB MW's... All CNMs not that I think that a CNM can't be warm and caring or vice versa with non-CNM's. Anyhow, one MW has been doing this for 20+ years and the collective knowledge is that she is just burnt out. The 2nd CNM, *IS* warm and fuzzy but is very strict in her protocol. No primary VBAC's. @ 41wks the BPP's start. @ 41w4-5d natural induction (castor oil) is started. @42wks you are scheduled for a hospital "gentle" induction... I won't even tell you about the "suspected big baby" protocol. This last MW that I have chosen to use while she has a WIDE protocol and handles things at home most would transfer for... But that isn't the problem... The problem lies in that she takes over whenever she walks in the room. I don't care to be called "Honey, babe or darling". She honestly treats mothers' as children. And does not validate which IMNSHO is essential when dealing with PG women and birthing mothers. She doesn't call back when you call. She forgets the HOME aspect of HOMEBIRTH.

When I was laboring with my youngest, I was very introspective. The only time I would open my eyes was btwn ctx. Long enough to look about, smile at my DH and take a sip of tea. My MW thought it wasn't the best way to do it and started coaching me to open my eyes, look at the flame of the candle, breathe instead of moaning. During that one ctx I tried it, I felt as though I was losing all ability to function. After that she started the "Take Charge Routine". I hadn't lost control, I was being very vocal during a very intense labor. I knew exactly what she was trying to do and said, in the middle of a ctx, "I can't hear you. I don't WANT to hear you. You need to shut up and get out of my face" with a couple of cuss words seasoning the above statement. Hours later when I was really getting low, the assistant MW, who "gets" birth reminded me about all the reasons I did not want to go to the hospital (I was saying things like, "I can't do this anymore. I need drugs. I need this to stop.") and that got me through my low point.

Yes I have talked to this MW about how I feel she did NOT listen to my wishes during my youngests birth. That I need a quiet birth space. No unneeded talking. Sit in the corner of a room and read a book until we need/ask you to help. She said OK to all of this but do I think she will honor this when it comes to birth time... ABSOLUTELY NOT!

Think about this.... I transferred to her care at 39wks from seeing a lay MW for the prior 8 months. She asked what I envisioned during the birth and I told her, "Quiet and calm. Not interferring unless it is absolutely needed. Staying out of my way. I don't want to get the feeling that anyone except me, and this baby, are in charge of this labor and birth." She asked why I went seeking a LM when practically none are to be found in our state when there was the 3 "above ground" MW's practicing and I told her that I didn't trust their ability to focus on the aspect that birth is a spiritual event rather than a medical event. None of it was honored during my birth.

As nervous as my husband sounds with my description of him here, he was absolutely my rock. I never felt his presence or support waver during our last birth. It didn't change once the entourage began to arrive. He needs to learn about the "what if" concerns he has. He needs to explore this and see if it fits. I'm just thankful that he is being open enough to even begin exploring since he DOES come from a super medicalized background.

If I were the least bit confident that the MW could sit on her hands and more importantly keep her mouth shut I would have half as many qualms with her being present... But I don't.

Originally Posted by midwyfmomma

It is important that your husband feels comfortable. His nervous energy would not benefit you during your beautiful birth. Sounds like you have a midwife already?? if you haven't I'd suggest that both you & your husband talk to her about your concerns & desires for uninterrupted birth. And gather all the information you can about UC like you're doing. I considered UC with my husband who was all for it, but I decided to have a trusted midwife assist us. In retrospect my husband was very happy to have our midwife present! She was wonderful... no VE's, gently listened to our baby's heartbeat a couple times and was a great addition to our baby's birthday party!

[rainbowmoon]

there's a bunch more birth stories by Dad's at www.birthlove.com (it's a pay site though very cheap! ) I highly reccomend it!

[Desdamona]

Leilah has (at least she used to) have my HBAC birth story on her site. Pictures and all... I wonder if it is still there?

[midwyfmomma]

You said you know of *underground* midwives in the area... I would search them out... & talk with the birth assistant who you said ""gets" birth" and see if she has any referrals for you or if she was a student if she's certified now or attending births... talk with moms at LLL, they often know of women who attend births in a very low-key manner... hands off...

[Desdamona]

Originally Posted by midwyfmomma

You said you know of *underground* midwives in the area... I would search them out... & talk with the birth assistant who you said ""gets" birth" and see if she has any referrals for you or if she was a student if she's certified now or attending births... talk with moms at LLL, they often know of women who attend births in a very low-key manner... hands off...

The LM I spoke about was the only one that I had found after 4 months of intensive searching, digging, pleading... And as it turned out she bailed at 39 wks because she got spooked of prosecution/persecution for practicing w/o a liscense. I have talked to the other MW who "gets it" but her advice is to sign up with her services. I am very involved with LLL here in my area and the resources they know of are the ones I have already explored.

I don't mean to sound defensive or flippant... I have come to the place that I truly feel I don't need a MW or any type of attendant to lead me through the birthing. After being accepting of everything in birth (1st birth), after being broken (2nd birth, c/s), after feeling whole again (with my 3rd birth, HBAC) I know that I *am* the one that gives birth. I am the one that labors and pushes my baby out. Not because someone said I could, because I DID IT!

*If* I was to have someone present it would be someone who knew how to sit on their hands and keep their mouth shut. But I am not feeling that I need to have that... Is this blind faith, is this confidence, is this the deep seated desire to be different than everyone else, is this accepting what will be will be, is this me being naive? Maybe it's a bit of everything but with the continuing conversation with DH (who is beginning to feel calmer about my decision to explore and pursue an UA birth... I think Gregory White's book will help him continue to feel confident about an UA) this FEELS right.

[TKEM]

Desdamona... I am right now finishing my recovery from a UC in Aug. my 2nd one and completly understand what your feeling. With both of my births I just knew that I had to be left alone to birth with my husband at my side. Ironically enough it was easy to connvince him the first time but was harder the second and I tried to find someone to be there without interupting to no avail. Luckily once the midwives in my area realized we were going to UC reguardless of what they said they opened their doors and library to us and made sure to cover their own tails by including a disclaimer letter saying that they were not at all responsible. Having that information at hand helped my husband feel more confident. I dont believe your selfish or naive for believing in your birthing right. I've had more people call me both and worse for making the choices that I have. With both births the second my husband and I were left alone, once helpers left and the house was quiet, active labor started and went smoothly and your right about the feeling of "I DID IT" theres nothing else like it in the world. My daughter was able to watch her brothers head crown and had the freedom to bounce back downstairs so she wouldn't get her princess slippers bloody Another thing that helped my husband was to have a solid back-up plan so he knew I was being real with my thoughts and not letting my hormones control my them. We made sure to cut the cord extra long in case the baby had to be hooked up to an IV and had a midwife come the next day after our second delivery not because we were unsure of mine or the babys health but for the birth certificate. After 3 births though I'm sure you know more than I do. My husbands biggest qualm about UCing was that if anything were to happen the full responsibility fell on him to have to control so I tried to take care of things as much as I could before hand. Good Luck with your birth!! It sounds like you know what your doing

[cottonwood]

Originally Posted by Desdamona

When I was laboring with my youngest, I was very introspective. The only time I would open my eyes was btwn ctx. Long enough to look about, smile at my DH and take a sip of tea. My MW thought it wasn't the best way to do it and started coaching me to open my eyes, look at the flame of the candle, breathe instead of moaning. During that one ctx I tried it, I felt as though I was losing all ability to function. After that she started the "Take Charge Routine". I hadn't lost control, I was being very vocal during a very intense labor.

ARGGGGGH! This is one of my major pet peeves. My first midwife was all into the "Take Charge Routine", even when I was waving her off and getting pissed. But she had the responsibility to help me even when I didn't want it. I wish I wish I wish so much that this "eye contact" crap especially would die out. The neocortex isn't supposed to be stimulated in birth! Midwives are supposed to be the protectors of birth wisdom and here they are perpetuating this hooey. : /rant

Yes I have talked to this MW about how I feel she did NOT listen to my wishes during my youngests birth. That I need a quiet birth space. No unneeded talking. Sit in the corner of a room and read a book until we need/ask you to help. She said OK to all of this but do I think she will honor this when it comes to birth time... ABSOLUTELY NOT!

Think about this.... I transferred to her care at 39wks from seeing a lay MW for the prior 8 months. She asked what I envisioned during the birth and I told her, "Quiet and calm. Not interferring unless it is absolutely needed. Staying out of my way. I don't want to get the feeling that anyone except me, and this baby, are in charge of this labor and birth." She asked why I went seeking a LM when practically none are to be found in our state when there was the 3 "above ground" MW's practicing and I told her that I didn't trust their ability to focus on the aspect that birth is a spiritual event rather than a medical event. None of it was honored during my birth.

See, that's exactly the problem. You can interview a million midwives and you still have no guarantee that you will get what you want and need. My first midwife seemed wonderful -- so warm and nurturing and sweet and full of that whole goddess/birth wisdom vibe. It did not for one second occur to me that she would turn into a raging dictator when I didn't respond to the birth sensations the way she thought I should. I thought, well then, I just need to be more specific about what I need. I just need to find a midwife that I'm sure will honor my requests and respect the birth energy. I lived in a very homebirth-friendly place at the time, midwives all over the place, lots of unlicensed DEMs too, practicing legally even. I still had a hard time finding someone who was comfortable just with the idea of me calling the shots. And when it came to the birth, although she was a thousand times more respectful than my previous midwife, she still did things that were not necessary and were intrusive. The point being not that midwives are all bad, but that you just cannot predict or control what another person is going to do, no matter how much you think you know about them beforehand.

[cottonwood]

Originally Posted by midwyfmomma

I'm a midwife and I do not usually do VE's...unless requested by the mom or if there seems to be a lack of progress where the information from a VE would be beneficial to what mom could do to help birth her baby.

It is possible to have a midwife present for your birth, but to not be interruptive... you just have to find the right one and be specific about what you want.

I think it's arguable whether it is possible (depending probably on how we define "interruptive",) but at the very least it is impossible to guarantee. Also, part of the point about the objection to "strange person with hand up vagina" is that birth is basically a sexual event, and if it is approached as such it's going to be inhibiting for the mother to attempt to share it with someone she's not normally sexually intimate with.

It is important that your husband feels comfortable. His nervous energy would not benefit you during your beautiful birth.

Of course. Which is why, I think, the OP started the thread.

[midwyfmomma]

Blueviolet...I guess you could then say that it's arguable whether or not even the husband could be present to REALLY have an uninterrupted birth.

The OP asked for men's perspectives on UC...as I said before, my husband was happy to have a midwife present even though originally he didn't want one since I'm a midwife. As it turned out I had a mild shoulder dystocia & it did take some negotiating to get him out. He was limp & floppy but came around quickly. My midwife did not step in until I asked her to when I discovered a nuchal cord. I know that my husband wouldn't have handled it as well as our midwife & then we would've needed to rescucitate our baby... It turned out wonderful for all of us. my husband was able to really just be in the moment with me in my labor without having to worry about handling anything. I didn't have to worry about anything either as I had my midwife to do that for me.

Birth is a sexual event. It's the culmination of the sexual event that started between two lovers.

Ina May refers to the Laws of Sphincters in her new book "Ina May's Guide to Childbirth". When a laboring mom is interrupted her progress will slow. Interruptions can be well meaning family or friends, changing locations, children present & needing her attention, VE's, midwife's arrrival to the home, moving from home to hospital or birth center... Birth is best left uninterrrupted as much as possible. Most women do prefer to have someone supportive with them and most men would prefer to not be responsible for handling everything.

Again Desdamona... make sure you & your husband are on the same page & continue to look for someone who might be a good match for you.

Blessings to you on your birth journey!

[sprinkle pocket]

Originally Posted by midwyfmomma

Most women do prefer to have someone supportive with them and most men would prefer to not be responsible for handling everything.

Again Desdamona... make sure you & your husband are on the same page & continue to look for someone who might be a good match for you.

that's an interesting thought. i guess that's why most births are assisted, b/c it's thought that someone has to be there b/c birth isn't simple and there's going to be lots of stuff to handle. but as i understand uc, not only are the men not expected to "handle everything", they're not expected to be a midwife substitute. that's how i'm reading what you wrote. as i understand uc vs. an assisted birth, i would think that alot of the stuff that needs "handling" is created by the assistants. that was certainly the case at the homebirths i attended at the request of friends birthing.

i agree that in the process of deciding upon a birth plan, it's important to be on the same page with one's partner if possible, but it's ultimately up to what the mama is most comfortable with. she's the one giving birth, and may decide to go solo with dh in the other room. the someone who might be the best match very well could be your husband. i think most, if not all of us who've chosen to freebirth have gone through quite a process to find uc the best choice on all levels--intellectually, emotionally, etc. husbands/partners included. it takes time to wade through everything we've been programmed to believe is true about birth.

i've known intellectually that i wanted a freebirth since before we were pregnant and before i knew it was something anyone else would consider. but my understanding of that decision and all it entails and my understanding of the scope of 'birth' continues to unfold. i just finally understood another ascpect of the decision many women make to have an assisted birth...birth is soo big, it's soo great and awesome of an event and we're such ego centered beings that we think we're responsible for making birth happen. and how humbling to realize that we can't "make" it happen. then we have these authority figures telling us that they can. so instead of realizing that our job is to quietly get out of nature's way, we find someone to tell us how to birth and mold our experience of the magical into something they take credit for. sorry for the rambling...just had to share.

[Desdamona]

Originally Posted by TKEM

My daughter was able to watch her brothers head crown and had the freedom to bounce back downstairs so she wouldn't get her princess slippers bloody ((SNIP)) After 3 births though I'm sure you know more than I do. ((SNIP)) Good Luck with your birth!! It sounds like you know what your doing

I love your daughter's reaction... Very practical in a very girl sort of way.
About knowing more than you after 3 birth (my 2nd birth (c/sect) really threw us for a loop Especially when it came to confidence on DH's part)... I only know what is right for me. And at this turn this is what feels RIGHT. Thanks. I *am* loving this feeling of being "liberated"... if that makes any sense?!!

Originally Posted by blueviolet

The point being not that midwives are all bad, but that you just cannot predict or control what another person is going to do, no matter how much you think you know about them beforehand

Well said... hence the reason I am exploring an unassisted birth.

Originally Posted by mdwyfmomma

Ina May refers to the Laws of Sphincters in her new book "Ina May's Guide to Childbirth". When a laboring mom is interrupted her progress will slow. Interruptions can be well meaning family or friends, changing locations, children present & needing her attention, VE's, midwife's arrrival to the home, moving from home to hospital or birth center... Birth is best left uninterrrupted as much as possible. Most women do prefer to have someone supportive with them and most men would prefer to not be responsible for handling everything.

Again Desdamona... make sure you & your husband are on the same page & continue to look for someone who might be a good match for you.

Blessings to you on your birth journey!

Thank you for the well wishes and I know that ultimately for both DH and I to be comfortable with the choices we are making about the birth of our child, we both should be on the same page... BUT I more than he need to be comfortable with those who are (or are NOT) in attendance... If the MW I invite invokes the "Sphincter Reaction" why would I consider inviting her (or any attendant) to my birth knowing full well the presence could/would be more of a distraction than an asset?

Originally Posted by sprinkle pocket

and how humbling to realize that we can't "make" it happen. then we have these authority figures telling us that they can. so instead of realizing that our job is to quietly get out of nature's way, we find someone to tell us how to birth and mold our experience of the magical into something they take credit for. sorry for the rambling...just had to share.

I don't think you are rambling at all. This is acually a realization I have had myself. As wonderful as my birth was, I have thought for the longest time... "Thank goodness for the MW... Without her I would have been transferred, or if i was in the hospital I would have been sectioned"... But what did she do that i wasn't already doing myself??? Why am I giving her credit for allowing me to birth my 3rd child? While I don't think it is an evil plan of MW's to keep women dependant on them and their services, why not empower and validate a woman in a way that allows them to realize that they are the ones giving birth and have the inate power to do so rather than being thankful for the MW being there?

A dear friend of mine put it the best when she said, there is no magic pill or magic person that you can invite to your birth that will make it easier or make it happen faster. (Not that either of us think that birth is this horrible thing that we have to endure) It is a process that is uniquely our own that we have to journey ourselves. No one can birth for us. It ours to do in order to reach the ultimate goal of birthing out baby ourselves.

Ok, now I am rambling I'm just glad that there is this forum where is can be done is a "safe" enviroment. Thanks to all the Mamas who have chimed in on this and the other thread I started.

[midwyfmomma]

why not empower and validate a woman in a way that allows them to realize that they are the ones giving birth and have the inate power to do so rather than being thankful for the MW being there?

I am saddened by all the negative experiences it seems that all of you have had with your care providers, whether doctors or midwives. I became a midwife to help women give birth the way THEY WANT to! Not how I see fit. I birth MY babies how I see fit & I support the women who WANT a midwife to have babies the way they want to.

No one is needed for birth when all is well.. and when I said that husbands shouldn't or don't want to be responsible for handling everything.. the everything I mean is the complications. Which are rare and mostly caused by interventions, but while 90-95% of births are completely normal if left alone I hope that no one who has an unassisted birth EVER has to deal with the aftermath of a complication that could've been easily handled by an educated birth attendant.

Obviously I believe in birth & what I do (and don't do) as a midwife... and some of you think that midwives disempower women and are an impediment to birthing the way you want. We will never come to an agreement on our difference of opinion in this matter. I was only offering my opinion & my husbands opinion which was elicited, but obviously was not the opinion that you were looking for.

Again... I wish you well in your birth journey & may you, your baby, & your family have a healthy & joyous experience!

[cottonwood]

"while 90-95% of births are completely normal if left alone I hope that no one who has an unassisted birth EVER has to deal with the aftermath of a complication that could've been easily handled by an educated birth attendant.

Obviously I believe in birth & what I do (and don't do) as a midwife... and some of you think that midwives disempower women and are an impediment to birthing the way you want. We will never come to an agreement on our difference of opinion in this matter."

I just want to mention that this is basically a support forum for unassisted birth, a safe place for women to discuss their thoughts and feelings about UC. You seem to be of the opinion that assisted birth is generally a better idea, and you are wanting to promote that, and that's fine. But maybe the birth or homebirth forums would be a more appropriate place for that. I don't mean to say that there should be no debate or questioning here, but I think it should be done in the spirit of understanding what unassisted birth is about, rather than in the spirit of upholding the assisted-birth paradigm.

[cottonwood]

Although of course I feel compelled to reply here... :LOL

Originally Posted by midwyfmomma

Blueviolet...I guess you could then say that it's arguable whether or not even the husband could be present to REALLY have an uninterrupted birth.

Absolutely! Some women choose to have a completely solo birth for that exact reason. But most of us, I think, wish to balance our need for privacy and minimum stimulation with our need for comfort and companionship. Those who plan midwife-attended homebirths certainly do, they just attempt to create their balance in a different way than UCers do.

For my part, I chose to have my husband there, with the full understanding that his presence would affect me. However, being as he is the person with whom I am least self-conscious, especially regarding body and sexual issues, and because he is connected to me psychically enough to be able to pick up on cues that others would not, I really felt, and still believe, that any negative effects would be insignificant, made all the more so by his ability to comfort me.

Birth is a sexual event. It's the culmination of the sexual event that started between two lovers.

Exactly right. Which is why it is such a tricky thing to bring a third person into the mix, especially someone who is not connected with the mother and baby in a deeply emotional and enduring way.

Most women do prefer to have someone supportive with them and most men would prefer to not be responsible for handling everything.

Which is probably why most women do not UC. If your mate is not supportive in a way that you need, and if you have a bunch of stuff for which someone other than yourself needs to be responsible... UC may not be the most attractive option.

Those concerns are irrelevant to some, though. When I gave birth, I didn't need somebody holding my hand, or helping me breathe, or giving me reassurances that all was fine, or giving me suggestions, or putting down chux pads, or putting warm cloths on my perineum, or checking dilation, or whatever. I needed my husband pressed up reassuringly behind me while I labored on hands and knees. A midwife couldn't have provided that, and quite frankly my husband wouldn't have done it if a midwife had been watching. Alone, though, he was more than capable of giving me the exact kind of support that I needed.

[cottonwood]

"No one is needed for birth when all is well.. and when I said that husbands shouldn't or don't want to be responsible for handling everything.. the everything I mean is the complications. Which are rare and mostly caused by interventions, but while 90-95% of births are completely normal if left alone I hope that no one who has an unassisted birth EVER has to deal with the aftermath of a complication that could've been easily handled by an educated birth attendant."

But someone will. As will many people have to deal with the aftermath of iatrogenic complications. There are no guarantees, no matter which choice one makes.

I also have to wonder (yet again and I'm sure I will again :LOL ) about the notion that 5-10% births will not be normal if left alone. If virtually all data about birth comes from managed birth in industrial countries and neonatal mortality rates in 3rd world countries, that says exactly nothing about unmanaged, undisturbed birth in which the mother is healthy and has access to medical care when it is needed.

ETA: Um, sorry, I went back to read the original post and realized I kind of got carried away on a tangent... I'm going to try to make up for it now by going and accosting my husband and demanding his perspective on UC :LOL