Mothering › Forums › Breastfeeding › Breastfeeding Beyond Infancy › caught-in-the-middle weaners' support
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

caught-in-the-middle weaners' support  

post #1 of 50
Thread Starter 
it sounds like an unfortunate male injury, but i can't think of a succinct way to describe what i'm feeling.

my feelings re: the clw forum are public knowledge here, & i think we eventually settled on a less vigorous application of the term than was originally applied (i feel welcome to post there, everyone has been sweet, but yet, but yet... i did wean my dd. at 7, but it was my decision. and with my 2 & 4 yr old- i don't know. argh!)

then popping in to bunnysma's (hey! yo, lady! how's it goin'?) thread, well, i feel weird there too- without denigrating what the thread there is about, or any of the participating ladies, i can't imagine weaning a small toddler, it is beyond my comprehension (NOT not knowing what it's like to have my flesh crawl while nursing pg, or wanting my twiddly child to suffer a temporary paralysis of the hand; i know these feelings well, but can't imagine them as anything other than temporary obstacles, nothing to wean over.)

so what's a mama to do? i feel like less 'together' somehow, like because i am neither firm in my decision to wean, or philosophically adamant that mine is not the deciding vote, i am in this in-between-world of wishywashiness. however, i suspect there are more here like me than are immediately apparent, for want of catagorization.

i did nightwean my kids to get some badly needed sleep- the family bed was difficult for me. yet, the kids don't need to be dehydrating to death from diarrhea for me to say 'sure, come sleep with me and pop one open.' it can just be a bad dream or a lonely spell. it seems like from one perspective, i am a horrible beeyotch for putting them to bed in another room without the all-night tap, but from another, i am neglectfully weak in my decison-making. my dd may have nursed till 7, but i am not esp proud of myself for having nursed longer than we were both comfortable with- in retrospect, i think my dd was waiting for ME to say 'no'. she weaned instantly and with no trauma, & other than laziness (and, of course, wanting it to be her decision- i've been reading mothering a LONG time ), i can't really remember why i didn't say at 5 or 6- 'hey, i'm not loving this anymore- you done?'

i am happy nursing my 4 yr old, & have no particular desire to cut him off from the 2 or so nursings he enjoys a day now, but if i don't feel like it's a great idea at some point, i will, gently, say, 'please. let's talk.'

so. are there really more mamas feeling this way out there- deeply commited to nursing, and needing an act of god to put an (in the child's eyes) early stop to it, but not commited to strict clw? sigh, i have tried to be inoffensive in my descriptions of the two opposing styles- i greatly respect both camps & love ya both, & if any hint of an injustly-phrased depiction of your philosophy gets your goat, could you please address it clarifyingly elsewhere, if necessary? i have far to go in perfecting my communication and there are no insults intended here, passive-aggressive or overt.

i really just want to see if there are any other mamas out there who don't feel like they belong in either place. for all the nice welcome vibes i've seen & felt in both places, both abruptly weaning an 18 month old AND nursing until someone else gives me permission to stop (extreme ends of the spectrum, of course- lol, don't you love a place where weaning at 18 months is considered extreme?) are not... me. i'm just taking it as it comes. ykwim? (i prefer to think of it as a 'mellow, laid back' weaning style instead of 'wishy-washy', but don't want to paint my other sisters by omission as 'uptight'. )

suse (hoping i phrased this carefully enough that no one gets pissed off!)
post #2 of 50
I totally relate to what you are saying!! It helps me to think about how animals wean their young. I watched lots of barnyard cats extended nurse. Eventually the mama would have enough and walk away. Sometimes she would get grouchy. She still nursed kittens that were half her size, but she enforced her boundaries as well and eventually encouraged them to wean. She didn't read any books, go to any support groups, get pressure from the other cats. :LOL

I don't know, I can't say that I honestly think strict child-led weaning is ideal because I don't think it's right to completely override your own feelings when it comes to your own body. I believe some (not all) children sometimes (not all the time) do need a little encouragement to let go and move on. At the same time, I think a child's needs should always be respected. I really don't think I could force wean, but there certainly is a middle ground somewhere.

So I don't know where that puts me. I don't commit to child-led weaning. I know that I will nurse as long as my kids need it, but I may give them a gentle nudge or two if it feels right.
post #3 of 50
I'm with you all generally. I haven't weaned my son yet, but I did put some daytime limits on him, which of course means that he nurses a lot at night. He went through a phase during the day when he needed to nurse pretty much constantly, but only when I was home or in sight. Otherwise, he was fine. I work at home and had to draw some boundaries to get the work done (and I tried to stay out of sight). In terms of weaning entirely, I can see gently encouraging him to wean at some point. I don't know when that would be or if it will even be relevant. He's 3 now and still going pretty strong and I'm still fine with it. But if I hit my limit through another pregnancy or what not, I'll try to figure out how to wean him gently. I don't have a problem with that.
post #4 of 50
Thread Starter 
omg, the cats, that's it. i can remember my dog rolling her eyes while dragging a couple of big puppies along on her teats, then the relief on her face when she got to the gate that was too high for them to jump & scraped them off. :rofl but she didn't wake up one day & say 'we're done'...

(btw, yes, my animals are now spayed and neutered. it was one litter of akc pups that went to good homes, don't lie awake nights worrying about my 'puppy mill'. )

we definately can learn from observing our mammalian relations (esp if our human relations never bf.)

suse
post #5 of 50

bs"d

I think I feel similarly. My dd is 2.5 years old and I don't see her weaning for at least a couple years or so. There may come a time, however, when we make an "agreement" to wean sometime after 4 or 5 years old. I don't chose that age because that is some predetermined age after which I am not comfortable nursing or whatever; I'm just guessing.

I do think a child can send her parents messages about her needs, yet the child will not state those needs explicitly or take significant actions to get the needs met. For example, our children send out messages that they are tired, yet they don't always take themselves to bed or tell us to do so. We, as the parents just need to recognize the messages that our children are sending us with their behavior telling us that, "it's time for bed", and respond to that so the need for sleep can be met.

Sometimes I feel my dd does similar behaviors with nursing. Last night, as she was nursing to sleep, she made all different kinds of strange breathing patterns, sucking patterns, and weird latches. Eventually, I got the message that nursing was not helping her go to sleep. I asked her if I could rub her back, so she turned over and I rubbed. After I few minutes, I stopped rubbing her, she turned back over and fell asleep. Perhaps a time will come when I will be able to sense that nursing is not meeting needs for her at any time of the day. Should I just continue to nurse her because she does not verbalize wanting to cease nursing, or because she accepts the breast when offered? Perhaps some children want their parents to give the message that it is okay to stop nursing or want the mother to guide them through such a transition? I don't know if weaning will ultimately be more "my" decision or my daughters decision or an equal agreement between us, but I am open to meeting dd's needs to nurse or to wean, even if that means I have to lead the process somewhat.
post #6 of 50
I'm decidedly in the gray area as well. I'm not sure I'm really dedicated to child-led weaning as all that natural of a concept. I've seen lots of animals decide their young ones have had enough and lose patience with it, so I don't see any reason why I can't feel the same way.

On the other hand, I'm nursing a 14 month old, so I can't see quitting any time soon.

So, I have no idea if I'll end up in the CLW forum or not. I would probably start to discourage it at some point if DS never lost interest (but he nurses for comfort, not for food, since I have almost nonexistent supply, so I am just extremely lucky to have made it this far!).
post #7 of 50
P.S. - this is totally off topic, but on the subject of tandem nursing, I am not sure what I would do there. My dilemma would be that the new baby needs as much of mama's milk as she/he could get (being a new baby and all), and DS no longer gets much nutritionally from it (since I only produce a few ounces a day). I would have a hard time with weaning DS in that situation though - cutting him off from something he needs emotionally (and that is a bonding thing for us both).

So, I have no idea what I'll do if I get pregnant.
post #8 of 50
Suse, in my book, you are a great mom and role model. especially for breastfeeding!!
But, i know how you feel. i'm bouncing around myself
post #9 of 50
Me! Me!

I love the CLW forum, but I am not philosophically committed to CLW. I think of the ideal balance of weaning leadership as situation-specific. I definitely identify with your self-description: deeply committed to nursing, taking it as it comes... I don't think of it as wishy-washy, though. Nursing has always been moment by moment. I never know what exactly is going on or what's coming next, but I don't need to know. Most of the time, it takes care of itself, sometimes in the way that our bodies do, and sometimes in the way that our relationship does, transcending our conscious apprehension of it. Just as I looked back and thought, wow, it's amazing how she was building herself out of what felt like chaos during those intense nursing times, I can now look back and think, wow, it's amazing what closeness and understanding came out of a time (while dry during pregnancy) when I often had to say no, I don't want to nurse anymore, it hurts too much.
post #10 of 50
I am a caught-in-the-middle weaner. When I first had my ds, I thought I would do clw, however, as 3.5 years was arriving and he was still nursing at every chance he could get, I felt that I needed to talk to him about it. I just could not picture myself going through another hot and sweaty city summer with a large child nursing a lot.

We talked about his feelings and I talked about mine. Then we decided to gradually decrease the nursing... and stop ceremoniously on his 3.5 year old birthday. Ten days before the actual date, we made a count down chain. Each day he tore off a link. On the last day, we had a special celebration with close friends and family and he got to pick out a toy.

I felt it was psychologically important for him to be able to have a dialogue about his feelings before we weaned. So, that's what we did.

Another anecdotal mammalian story regarding weaning. Two years ago, I went to the national zoo. While observing the gorillas, I noticed a toddler gorilla (probably about 2), he was trying desperately to reach his mama, who had climbed up very high, to a location that just seemed out of reach for the toddler. Well, this little guy was determined, it took him a half hour to get to his mama, and when he did he nursed and nursed. Two things occurred to me: 1) how important the need to nurse is for young mammals 2)the fact that in the animal world, animals create obstacles so that nursing becomes harder to do. In the human world, attached parents do not. The question is should we naturally be creating these obstacles?


~laura
post #11 of 50
I guess I'm in the grey area too. I'm not a mother-led weaner, but I'm not CLW either... I waited for ds to nightwean himself, I began asking him to wait briefly to nurse at just before 2 years, I now at 26 months will occassionally say, "No, not right now." On the other hand I don't seek to reduce the frequency of his nursing, I keep an eye on it and if I've refused a request because I was busy or touched out I make sure the next time he asks, we make up that missed session. So, I don't see a label that fits me!
post #12 of 50
Thread Starter 
whew.

y'know, this *did* sort of used to be the default position here, & it wasn't until strong needs for support in other styles of weaning happened along that i started feeling, i guess, left out? there were always people here who clw (even if they didn't label it so), & people who wanted/needed to wean, & it was just this diverse stew.

i don't really remember when it got so big we needed to qualify ourselves & form groups; there was a time that passed me by, i guess, when clw'rs swear they were getting more-or-less harassed by people shoving 'wean!' in their faces, & i didn't notice- perhaps i saw the 'wean'em' folks as a minority of relative newbies & didn't give them much thought- obviously enough people were disheartened by them to feel a need to tribalize. and now with the greater presence & the stamp of official 'mothering' approval of a new forum , enough people felt a lack of a place to comfortably discuss their desire to wean.

while i mourn (a little bit) the tight sense of community that kept us from needing to be so defined in our intent, i am glad for the enlargement of the ap population & the success of the boards. i am v happy to see everyone here, not just people from a zillion years ago. (in internet years ) i guess it was necessity, part of the growth of the boards... but it feels downright odd, in a way, to have to form a support group for essentially what many folks have been doing all along!

well, i hear waking from naps, so enough pontificating from me. i am sooo glad to hear i am not alone! ciao, suse

ps i had warm fuzzy feelings all day reading your post, kirstie, thanks! (i am more used to people having a less positive reaction to my outspokenness, lol)
post #13 of 50
I have been posting in the weaning support thread and my dd is only 18 mos. But I still feel ambivalent about it all. I have to say that if she were my last (or only, as she's actually my first), I would probably not wish to wean her as soon as I probably will. But I know that don't want to tandem nurse and I would like to go through pregnancy without nursing. Two days ago we started to attempt to nightwean, and I have to say that if it's successful, it just might prolong our nursing relationship. Already I notice that not having nursed at night (well, once the first night and not all last night) I don't resent the daytime nursing. It had gotten to be an all-night, literally hanging off the boob affair and I hated, hated, hated it. So if the nightweaning succeeds, then perhaps she'll continue for another 6-12 mos. Who knows? While nursing her today she was being very sweet and I liked the closeness. But at other times she's very disrespectful (can she be at this age? regardless, I don't like the kicking, pinching and face slapping and tweaking) and I get very resentful. That's when I feel like something is being done to my body against my will. I would just like to be done nursing her by the time I get pregnant again, which we're planning to try beginning in early 2006. I would like to have my boobs to myself for 9 months before starting with a second child and I don't want to have to wean one while nursing a newborn (that seems like just asking for sibling resentment).

So even though my daughter is younger than most here, I'm ambivalent and still feel a bit caught-in-the-middle, too.
post #14 of 50
It seems to me that all of you would be welcome in CLW. Setting limits IS part of CLW- its part of parenting!!!

Can I say for certain that I won't nudge ds along the road to weaning at some point in the future? No, I can't. In fact, I most likely will nudge him along if he's still nursing as his 5th birthday approaches.

I still post in CLW and feel very much at home there.
post #15 of 50
Thread Starter 
while i feel comfortable enough chatting in clw for the most part (and i have posted when it seemed appropriate, esp before bbi started up- where else to talk of the experience of nursing a school-age child?), there is still that aura that 'nightweaning' is a four-letter word (and that's ok- it was started as a place where people wouldn't *have* to see 'wean, wean, wean' everywhere they looked, & would feel supported- right?)

i do feel a wee bit constrained while chatting there. there is some divergence of opinion of how much limit-setting can still be called 'clw', & rather than worry about whether i fit in that box, i'd rather design my own (very large, encompassing, vast in scale... tho' i'm very glad to still get a warm guest welcome from y'all )

suse
post #16 of 50
I'm open to CLW, but also open to initiating weaning if I'm done. I don't think I should breastfeed past toddlerhood if it isn't happening for me. After reading Our Babies Ourselves I really don't think that clw is the be all and end all of "natural" breastfeeding. I don't know what will happen with another pregnancy, and partly because of that I planned not to get pregnant until she was 2, wanted to give her the minimum WHO guideline at least

Ideally she'll wean and I'll be the one wistful and sad about it, whether she is 3 or 7 And I have great hopes that'll be the case because even now, she is not 2, and I have many instances of offering and she refuses (usually because I want her to sit down for a bit so I don't need to watch her LOL)
post #17 of 50
I'm fairly ambivalent, too. My 3 older dc all weaned in early toddlerhood one way or the other (varying from me weaning the first, encouraging weaning during pregnancy with the second, and having our breastfeeding relationship ended by a resistant nursing strike with the third.) Funny only here do I feel strange for having weaned a 15 month old! But also only here can I express grief over the way-too abrupt sudden weaning of my last ds at only 16 mos and not have people feel that I'm crazy. His nursing strike was awful for both of us, and it was a very unpleasant end to a beautiful relationship.
So here I am nursing an almost 21 month old, just now venturing into new territory as my older dd weaned at around 20-21 mos while I was pregnant with her brother. I have at present no intention to wean or nightwean or any other variation - especially as my dd has a terrible cold right now and really needs to nurse. But I don't know how I'll feel in 6 mos, or a year. I reserve the right to change the plan if I need to!
post #18 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by velcromom
I guess I'm in the grey area too. I'm not a mother-led weaner, but I'm not CLW either... I waited for ds to nightwean himself, I began asking him to wait briefly to nurse at just before 2 years, I now at 26 months will occassionally say, "No, not right now." On the other hand I don't seek to reduce the frequency of his nursing, I keep an eye on it and if I've refused a request because I was busy or touched out I make sure the next time he asks, we make up that missed session. So, I don't see a label that fits me!
This is me. DD nightweaned herself just before her second birthday. She was still nursing a lot during the day though and that was fine with me. I did notice that if we were busy she usually nursed less and so I did try to keep us occupied but if she wanted to nurse we nursed. It wasn't until I became pregnant and started to have changes in my supply and taste that she really started to cut back on nursings. We went from 6 to 1 daily nursing in fairly quick fashion all on her own as my supply totally disappeared around the 4th month. For quite a while she was only nursing at bedtime. When DH took over putting her to bed we went down to about once every 2nd or 3rd day. I will admit that now if she seems to just suddenly see my BBs say in the bathtub or because she peaked under my shirt and I wasn't wearing a bra I might refuse her. In the bathtub I tell her she can nurse if she still wants to when we get out. If she wants to nurse in public I say she can nurse when she gets home. Usually she has totally forgotten by the time we get out etc. I only have two months to go though until the new baby comes and I won't be totally shocked if she starts back up again. I'm not totally sure how I feel about that honestly but so I guess I'm somewhere in the middle. I let her decide when it was time to really cut back but now that she has I do resist casual attempts to nurse more often. If she really seems to need it vs oh hey yeah I forgot you had those then I nurse her. I don't know where that really puts me.
post #19 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by wasabi
I let her decide when it was time to really cut back but now that she has I do resist casual attempts to nurse more often. If she really seems to need it vs oh hey yeah I forgot you had those then I nurse her.

Oh, I feel the same way, when ds had dropped some nursings, then during a cold or whatever, would want to go back to more frequent nursing. I was surprised to feel a little resistant and annoyed about that. I've always felt very open to nursing more if he needed to, before. I would do it since he clearly needed it just because he was feeling yucky or just frazzled... but I had never before felt that way, and it was kinda hard. I guess I'm letting some expectations arise and then he goes and changes things up on me... but then I do think, all the mammals I have seen raising babies get to this stage, so it must be a natural progression. It's just that I can choose how to react to it based on my goals. I'm really trying to keep a balance between our needs, it throws me off a bit when suddenly it's MY needs that changed and I need to address that. Why is it harder to comprehend that I must meet my own needs as well as his, even though I firmly believe that nursing a toddler is a two-way street...
post #20 of 50
nak...here too! this is so me!!! i am slowly and wishy-washily weaning my almost 4yo ds...i keep going back and forth but can't quite cut him off...i nightweaned at 18 months, got pregnant at 2.5 years, lost my milk at about 3years, but that didn't stop him, baby born at 3.25years, milk back, yayyy chocolate milk mama!! so he is still going...lol
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Breastfeeding Beyond Infancy
This thread is locked  
Mothering › Forums › Breastfeeding › Breastfeeding Beyond Infancy › caught-in-the-middle weaners' support