I am getting way too worked up

[Galatea]

I have spent about a week now, up late, reading all the circ boards at various sites, getting myself really upset. I just can't stop thinking about how terrible circumcision is. I automatically dislike people when I find out they are pro-circ. I am even considering going back to law school so I can make a legal difference. I talk about it constantly to my wonderful dh. To his credit, he always listens and supports me, but I don't know if I am wearing on him or making him feel bad about himself. Help me get some perspective, please. I think I went through a mild version of this last year but this time it is out of control. My wrist is starting to go numb b/c of all the surfing.

[mamacarla]

i don't have the energy to type more but just wanted to say - you are not alone!!!

carla

[Margaret1022]

I second that

Hi,

Nope, you aren't alone. I've been a child abuse advocate, patient advocate, senior care advocate and almost any kind of "underdog" protector you could imagine. It's very hard to know about the things that are being covered up and feel helpless to do anything about them. Like you, I have seriously considered going to law school. I have a stack of applications and study guides knee high as I type this. I honestly don't know if that's the answer though. I know so many of the "good guys and girls" who are railroaded and pushed out when they are perceived as upsetting the money train.

Best regards,
Margaret

[Mommiska]

You are definitely not alone. I think you have to go through this complete outrage stage (and then go through it again and again, as the horror of circumcision hits you again )...but that's what we need in order to do something about this, you know?

It's hard - and I feel for you, having a circ'ed husband. My dh is intact, and I know that he sometimes finds my passion about this subject a bit wearing (although he totally agrees with me and is very supportive/willing to listen).

I don't really know what the answer is. I think you just do what you can do - make sure pregnant friends have all of the facts, question circumcision where you can, etc.

It's worth keeping in mind that many people circ simply because they dont' really realise there is an option to keep your son intact. A good friend of mine has 2 circed sons, but her third son is intact, because she finally was given accurate information and support in the choice to leave her son as God created him.

And she stood up to a lot of family disapproval to do this (her dh was totally on board with her, but her parents were very disapproving).

It's worth keeping in mind.

I have a good friend who circed her son despite my pleas to leave him intact. It caused a huge big deal between us.

We have talked it out, and (although I still obsess about it at times, and imagine what I would say to her if I could) I just try not to think about it. The thing is - she is a good mother and loves her children soooo much.

She just can't think outside of the box. And she is desperately afraid to be different...so I think she projects that fear onto her children, thinks that her son would never want to be different, so circing is 'better' for thim (they live in a high circ area).

I completely disagree, but I know she loves her child. I'm just left with a sad feeling that she was unable to stand up to society to protect him, you know?

Not sure that helps, but I try not to judge her, and instead just let myself feel sad about it (when I think about it, which I try not to!).

Not sure if any of this helps, but at least you know others share your feelings...

[calngavinsmom]

I'm one too. I have thought about going back to school for nursing/midwifery/childbirth education/doula in part to make a difference in the circ issue. I constantly think about how to get the word out and am very sad for boys IRL who have been cut. You are surely not alone!

Take care,
Tara :

[LizD]

I sometimes get very upset about the idea of circumcising my son even though he is 8 months and it's all ok now. Like, I think oh god, we could have done that to him!!!! I never wanted to cirumcise my children but when I think how many people do, and for non-religious reasons, I feel like we have had a narrow escape.

I notice my British and Asian clients always ask when the nurse comes to take the baby for its observation in the nursery: "You're not going to circumcise him, are you?!"

I am less and less comfortable when people say they've circ'd their sons. In as kind a way as possible, I say I finally know what "over my dead body" means- that I'd have to be dead on the floor before that happened to my boy.

[LizD]

Oh, but here's an example of exactly what the OP was talking about- I got so worked up myself I forgot what I originally intended to reply!

Which is...sometimes when you get like that you have to take a break. Most doulas I know, including me, have to take a break from attending hospital births (esp in my town) because of what we see and how powerless we are to stop it. When we start getting too upset we can't combat the problem effectively, and need to step back. So I would say the same thing about circumcision; yes, going into a profession wherein you can make a difference would be wonderful! But if you are starting to sort of curdle you need to take a break from reading and thinking about it, and come back to the issue less emotionally upset.

[Frankly Speaking]

I think people respond to this issue in one of three ways. (1) They come here and read and decide this is much ado about nothing. They read for a few minutes and never really think about it again. (2) They come here, read the information, are glad they found it, read for a few days and go on. (3) They come here find the information, become outraged that this is happening and begin a quest for more information.

Youu have fallen into that third group along with several others of the regulars here. This group has a pitfall. The more you learn, the more it all adds up and the worse it gets. It builds and builds until you get to the point of outrage. Fortunately, it reaches a peak and subsides somewhat.

I reached that peak several years ago. It was about the time I discovered MDC and back when this was still a debate board. I was mad and outraged and I took it out on people who "hadn't gotten it" yet. I have enough of a talent for writing that I could easily get under their skin and I did that quite often and I offended more than a few people, even people that were on my side. It didn't help that this was at the same time I was undergoing restoration which guaranteed that my mind was constantly on the subject and I was also angry that I was having to go through all of that hassle just to be normal. It took a couple of months to get past that peak and calm down a bit.

The bad thing is that you will never "get over it" but you will become more calm about it. The good thing is that you will see progress after a couple of years and that is rewarding and empowering. You will have personal victories and you will see victories of the movement. I have seen tremendous progress in just the time I have been involved. One of the best things is that the various boards discussing this have had to make changes in response to the changing attitudes like this changed from a debate forum to a support forum. That took quite a bit of bravery for MDC as the general fear is that this very decisive stance will offend a large portion of their members. There is also a member here who has her own business that advertises on MDC and initially, she was worried that a strong stance against circumcision would have a detrimental effect on her business. However, she either became less concerned or saw that a stance on circumcision would have little effect or even possibly a positive effect and now she is a regular here and even has anti-circumcision links in her signature line. Intactivism is quickly becoming mainstream.

The legal (lawyer) route is a noble idea as long as you are not concerned about making a living doing just circumcision cases. The lawyer I know that specializes in circumcision cases does it purely as a statement of his beliefs and doesn't make his living on circumcision cases. His office is about 30 miles from his home, I suspect because of the lower rental rates there and he also has two other businesses to augment his income just so he can pursue his convictions about this issue. It takes a wide variety of other cases to keep his practice going. The courts are just not ready to give these cases the attention they deserve yet and even the worst cases can get awards that I would consider insulting.

There are four recent examples of what you will run up against. There was a California man who had performed circumcisions on boys and only got a warning. However, after he had only agreed to perform a circumcision on a girl was he put in jail without bail bond. In another case, a Washington truck driver circumcised his son and only got a short jail term probably only because he put the rest of his family in hiding from the authorities. In the third case, a California man circumcised his son and was charged and taken to court. The judge found that he had done absolutely nothing wrong and let the man go, scott free. In the fourth case, a Georgia man circumcised his daughter and is now serving a long prison term. What's the difference? Only the sex of the child.

You also have to realize that the vast majority of your clients will be young and just getting started in life. Their careers are just getting started and they don't have the discretionary income to finance a battle like this. Many of them are struggling financially just to make ends meet and most of the cases will be on a contingency basis. You may even have to advance the funds for the court costs, expert witnesses, lab work and investigation with no guarantee that you will ever get it back. Often times the awards for these cases are insultingly low and it's not unusual for the parents and the child/man to only come near the break even point.

I'm not trying to discourage you and if you love law and want to practice, go ahead with it. Align yourself with Attorneys For The Rights Of The Child and do these cases as you can get them. Just don't count on having a practice that is solely circumcision cases. There is no doubt there are enough cases out there but few of them ever get to a lawyer's office. Just recently, a mother of a boy who had a bad outcome contacted me privately about a lawyer. The thing that struck me was that her family was very much against bringing suit against the doctor that did this to her son. I know several others who have actionable cases and a few who have even contacted the lawyers but have gone no further and probably never will. It's unfortunate but it's the reality of the situation. Those doctors get off scott free to go on to damage other boys and men without consequences or responsibility.

The medical profession is no different than any other profession in that it has members that are incompetent to perform their job. The difference is that in other profession, there are mechanisms to get these incompents out of the profession. To the contrary, the medical profession protects these incompetents to keep them in the profession through doctor run state medical boards, professional associations and a well established and well funded governmental lobbying organization. The Tort Reform movement is ample evidence of this. They want and are getting exceptions and protection from the judicial system that is extended to no one else. I think it would be more aptly named "The Judical Subterfusion Movement" or "The Medical Provider Irresponsibility Movement" because it both negates the judicial system and promotes retaining the incompetents in the profession. They assert that there is a malpractice insurance crisis. The fact is that the crisis is of their own making. They fight tooth and nail to keep these incompetents and all practitioners in the profession and the insurance companies see this and decide they don't want to provide coverage or if they do provide coverage, they set the premiums comensurate with the risk. What the doctors want is a law that voids their responsibility and keeps all members in the profession so that the insurance companies will have greatly reduced risk for even the incompetents and can provide them with the minimal coverage now needed at an acceptable rate. Thanks to this, we will now have to worry that our health care provider is one of these incompetents and will harm or kill our family.




Frank

[Galatea]

Thanks for your thoughts, Frank.

I do realize that one cannot eat off of circumcision cases. But I have always had an interest in public interest law, and that is what I studied when in law school. I want to go back for many reasons. One of them is that I would have to write 2 huge papers and I thought that circumcision/religion/equal protection would make an excellent constitutional law issue to work on. I think even that contribution would be good.

I also agree with you about the doctors. As I may have mentioned, my father is a lawyer and so I have always been aware of these issues. In fact, it is one of the few areas in politics in which we agree.

I thought I had reached my peak of outrage last summer, but I guess not, as this one is much higher. I think I do need a break, but being a SAHM in the winter and being tired and pg... well, let's just say that the computer is enticing!

Thanks for everyone's input. I may try to stay away, but I may not.

[loving-my-babies]

wow, Lilly, you're on a roll!!

I think it's great that you want to go back to law school (I didn't even know you had been in law school! ) It's in my plans to go to law school as well, you can do so many things with a law degree! My dad is also a lawyer, and it can get ugly in some areas, but you can choose what you want to do. Circumcision law might be hard if you are sensitive to this issue, for example, my dad always told me I'd make a heck of a lawyer in family law, but I am way too sensitive and couldn't handle it if I had to work with children's abuse cases, and things of that nature. But I think it's great you're considering it!! I say go for it!!!!

As for getting worked up.. I don't visit other forums anymore, because I just can't tolerate the ignorance.

[susienjay]

I feel the same way too. I finally had to stop reading all the sites because I would just get myself more upset. My dh is circed too and I think that is the thing that bothers me the most about circ. He never chose to have that happen to him and it really makes me sad that a horrible decision made by his mother 28 years ago still causes him problems. Is your dh restoring? My dh makes occasional efforts at restoring. He was cut super tight but he's probably regrown 1/4" of new skin. His restoration efforts have helped subdue my outrage a little bit. I'm really glad he is restoring even though I can't tell a big difference yet.

[Doodlebugsmom]

Lilli, I'm with you! I have read about circ for years and I think about it all the time. It literally keeps me up at night. I try very hard, but can't seem to muster up much respect for those who choose to circ. Esp. family members like my BILs who are very smart and educated, but just refuse to educate themselves about circ.

[Quirky]

I hear you. This has happened to me in waves, where there will be nights where I literally cannot sleep my body is so taut with anger after staying up till the wee hours on yet another website, thinking about all the things I would love to say to my circing in-laws if only I could have an honest discussion with them (and then say good bye forever as that would be my last conversation with them!)

For me, part of the outrage is that people are so clueless and JUST DON'T GET IT how male circ is EXACTLY the same as female circ. I'm a feminist and I think a lot of the men's rights movements is full of BS (esp. the wing devoted to trying to prove that male domestic violence against women doesn't exist....) but this is an equal protection issue that just simply drives me crazy, how educated, smart, feminist women could allow their babies to be genitally mutilated without GETTING how they are exactly the same as our counterparts in Africa who allow their girls to be cut (but with fewer excuses!)

As an attorney myself I can understand the temptation to take this on as a litigator but I think there are plenty of other productive ways to fight this battle. One is at a personal level with friends and family. Another is to join the effort to get Medicaid to defund RIC. Another is to lobby private insurance companies to defund RIC. Another is to educate doctors and to walk away from those who perform RIC and/or are not foreskin friendly - and let them know why they are losing you as a client. Another is to advocate here at MDC and other internet fora for intactness. Another is to raise awareness in your Congresspeople (although I think the day we'll see an MGM bill pass Congress is the day hell will freeze over, quite frankly). Another is to put a bumper sticker on your car.

Anyway, I certainly haven't done all of the above and I'm sure there are more, but when I do even a little thing it helps to combat some of the helpless rage I feel in the wee hours when I'm thinking about the millions of little baby boys (and grown men) mutilated for no good reason (and there is no good reason for circ IMO, not even if it comes out of a thousands-of-years-old tradition).

And sometimes it helps just to take a little break from it all.....

[Lula's Mom]

Me too. I come here and read this forum, I surf the net and read other sites... I get outraged and I try to make DP read the articles too. I want to educate him just as I am educating myself, so that he'll be a loud, proud intactivist too! But it makes him sad and sick, and he doesn't have the stomach to read it all. Then I feel bad that I've forced it on him once again. I guess I just tend to get so mad as well as sick, and I want to do something.

Once I knew what circ'ing really was, it just seemed so crystal clear that no one should ever, ever do this. I can't understand how some can hear the facts and not care.

[Frankly Speaking]

Originally Posted by Quirky

As an attorney myself I can understand the temptation to take this on as a litigator but I think there are plenty of other productive ways to fight this battle.

Litigation has a very important part in this fight and I don't think it should be given short shrift. For example, in the early 1970's, there was a case of parents who didn't want their son circumcised but he was circumcised against their wishes. They won their case and as a result, the doctor has to get the parent's permission now through informed consent with their signature as proof. If that case had not been brought, you would not be able to protect your baby unless you fearfully clung to him the entire time he was in the hospital. At a later time, if he went into the hospital for any other surgical procedure, there would be a liklihood that the surgeon would "do you a favor" and circumcise him while he was in. The death of the boy at Airline Hospital and the following lawsuit prompted the administration to prohibit any circumcisions on their premises. William Stowell's lawsuit brought wide national and even some international attention to the issue. The stern warnings of Dr. Dennis Kendel, Registrar of the CPS/Saskatchewan of potential lawsuits and that their insurer may not cover circumcision related lawsuits certainly had a significant effect in reducing the circumcision rate in all of Canada.

The medical profession is a very insular profession that tends to operate under it's own rules only. They vigorously fight outside influences as evidenced by the "tort reform" legislation being enacted at the state level and vigorously pushed at the national level. This legislation is an attempt to insulate the medical profession from oversight and from the repercussions of inept practitioners that they protect and keep in the profession. Until now, the lawyers are the only thing that has kept them in line. Lawyers certainly have a valuable function in this fight and the potential to bring circumcision to an end in this country.



Frank

[Quirky]

I don't disagree, Frank. Just pointing out the many non-litigation routes to intactivism.