Are intactivists mean to pro-circs?

[Galatea]

I hear this criticism a lot from pro-circ parents. They say that we are mean and that we say they are bad parents. They say this is why they do not try to debate circumcision, b/c we do not play fair. I was thinking about this last night, and this is what I came up with:

They do not debate b/c they have no argument that would hold up to scrutiny. If they had something to say that supported RIC, they would say it. Now they say, "We don't debate b/c you are mean." I think this is a cover. If they had anything that would support RIC, I think they would LOVE to deploy it in debate, IF ONLY to shut up the mean intactivists.

I tried to make this point elsewhere and it was ignored. I'd like to say "crickets chirping," but maybe I am being smug. What do you all think?

[loving-my-babies]

Well, I think that circumcision is a HUGE mistake. a HUGE mistake! I have trouble not thinking that circ'ing is abuse, because in my eyes, it is. So when I am having a debate or conversation with someone about this, all of this comes up in my head, and my attitude in the conversation will most likely show it. But ONLY when someone defends circumcision and gives me arguments that support it. I will not be mean to someone that is educated and knows circumcision is wrong, even if they did it before.

[Doodlebugsmom]

Originally Posted by loving-my-babies

Well, I think that circumcision is a HUGE mistake. a HUGE mistake! I have trouble not thinking that circ'ing is abuse, because in my eyes, it is.

Amen to that! I will tell someone the benefits of the foreskin and the flawed studies that advocate circ, but until they do the research from reputable sources themselves I won't debate it with them. It's no use to even try. I'll end up furious and they just will refuse to believe me. It's a non-debatable issue to me. I would never be mean to any person who circed, but asking me to respect anyone who chooses to circ is asking too much. For the record, I wouldn't be mean to anybody! I'm just not a mean person! I could absolutely forgive a person who circed, but later became educated and realized that it was a wrong decision.

[whateverdidiwants]

IMO, being "mean" would entail strapping them down and doing to them what they choose to do to their helpless child, NOT presenting them with facts.

[Benji'sMom]

If a pro-circ parent asks me my opinion, then yes I will tell them they are a bad parent & they abused their child. So maybe if they can't handle that, they're better off not asking me.

[Frankly Speaking]

"Meaness"and similar accusations are simply a last ditch effort and a sign of defensiveness. By the time they get to hurling these accusations in an attempt to throw a red herring into the discussion, they have already seen that there are no medical benefits and that it is not recommended by any medical association. They also see that it is purely cosmetic surgery for their own satisfaction of what their idea of genital esthetics are. They have also seen that the "locker room" and "look like daddy" social and cultural justifications don't work. They see that there is no refuge and in their denial, they start hurling accusations toward you to try to discredit you personally and get the discussion away from circumcision and on to you and your ethics. It is trying to distract the attention of the reader away from circumcision and on to you and your motives.

At a site where there is no one else to say circumcision is wrong along with you, it works for a little while but it eventually falls apart. At a big board and especially one that has a forum for the discussion of circumcision, these accusations just don't work at all. They are quickly put down for exactly what they are.

The fact is, these people do not want to invest the time and effort to research the issue and learn the truth. They want to quash any discussion about circumcision because it throws an unfavorable light on them and their decisions.




Frank

[edamommy]

I'm sure I may come off mean. It's hard to be nice to someone who wants to mutilate a babies penis for cosmetic reasons, or old "myths". :

[boingo82]

Originally Posted by loving-my-babies

Well, I think that circumcision is a HUGE mistake. a HUGE mistake! I have trouble not thinking that circ'ing is abuse, because in my eyes, it is. ...

I agreed with your post Carmen. I think a lot of it is that neither of us grew up thinking circ is normal. You b/c you're not from the US. Me because my parents intended to delay the circs of my brothers (they *knew* they *had* to circ) and when the foreskin didn't rot off, they decided to leave well enough alone.

[kaydee]

I am sure that some parents who have circed or who support circ will see any statement or presentation of evidence against it as "mean." Even the most carefully considered, gently phrased advocacy will seem heave handed to some people. There's no helping that.

Then again, I am sure that some intactivists *are* mean. Why would we be different from any other group of people in that regard?

[Frankly Speaking]

Originally Posted by kaydee

I am sure that some parents who have circed or who support circ will see any statement or presentation of evidence against it as "mean." Even the most carefully considered, gently phrased advocacy will seem heave handed to some people. There's no helping that.

Yup! At one site that I knew the owner was very pro-circ and where I knew I had to be very careful, I posted "Here's what The American Academy of Pediatrics has to say about it" and then posted a link to their policy statement. I was accused of attacking and was banned from the site.



Frank

[edamommy]

Originally Posted by Frankly Speaking

Yup! At one site that I knew the owner was very pro-circ and where I knew I had to be very careful, I posted "Here's what The American Academy of Pediatrics has to say about it" and then posted a link to their policy statement. I was accused of attacking and was banned from the site.





Frank

[CherryBomb]

I had to deal with this the other day at work (xposted from my lj):

So yesterday at work I got to hear all about how men with foreskins are disgusting and nasty, EVEN BABIES, and then when I spoke up I got typical ignorant "foreskins cause STD's/infections/UTI's/ETC.

I went off on a little rant (which was short because I was angry I was shaking and my hands were turning blue) and ended it with "My daughter was born perfect, and if this one is a boy, he will be born perfect, too."

It disgusts me that we live in a society that views that natural male penis as DISGUSTING. I'm not saying you have to think penis' are cute, but come on. And how sick and sexist is it to say that hey, women are born fine, but men?! EWWW yuck, they're born FLAWED.

One woman actually said that her first husband didn't want their son circumsized (because he was intact), but "there's no way I'd change him with that nasty thing on his penis!" She said that about her OWN CHILD!

(edited to remove a lot of cursing...I was very angry!)

If I was mean, so be it. They deserved it.

I would never be mean just because someone circ'd, but I have no tolerance for morons who refuse to educate themselves. I understand why so many Americans are ignorant about circumsion, but that's not an excuse to refuse to learn.

[calngavinsmom]

That's a funny question....funny as in peculiar. I've wondered what these accusations have been based on on numerous occasions. One site I go to you see this all the time. Someone asks for information about circ or especially about a circ complication and no matter how nicely the responses are presented.....the pro-intact people are accused of being mean and shoving their "opinions" down peoples throats. Even though there were no "opinions" put forth, just facts backed up by studies/info.

Its even worse if the person comes storming to the board with guns blazing, "well I'm circumcising by ds because not circumcising is dirty...looks funny....Daddy is circumcised"...every lame excuse and insult in the book and then gets offended that anyone would dare to question her/him. It's my child and I'll do what I want!!! You all are just mean!!!

I don't know how many times I've been reading through a thread thinking, well this ones going well and bang! The "you're just being mean" "you're shoving your opinions down peoples throats" accusations start...seemingly out of the blue

I think they respond like this because they have no other recourse. There is no actual information to back up their argument(or they are not willing to find any) so they go on the defensive to try to save face.

Thats JMO.

Take care,
Tara

[homebirthing]

Originally Posted by Frankly Speaking

"Meaness"and similar accusations are simply a last ditch effort and a sign of defensiveness. By the time they get to hurling these accusations in an attempt to throw a red herring into the discussion, they have already seen that there are no medical benefits and that it is not recommended by any medical association. They also see that it is purely cosmetic surgery for their own satisfaction of what their idea of genital esthetics are. They have also seen that the "locker room" and "look like daddy" social and cultural justifications don't work. They see that there is no refuge and in their denial, they start hurling accusations toward you to try to discredit you personally and get the discussion away from circumcision and on to you and your ethics. It is trying to distract the attention of the reader away from circumcision and on to you and your motives.

At a site where there is no one else to say circumcision is wrong along with you, it works for a little while but it eventually falls apart. At a big board and especially one that has a forum for the discussion of circumcision, these accusations just don't work at all. They are quickly put down for exactly what they are.

The fact is, these people do not want to invest the time and effort to research the issue and learn the truth. They want to quash any discussion about circumcision because it throws an unfavorable light on them and their decisions.




Frank

I agree 100%. Who is the mean one? The one is the protecter, or the one who is the abuser?

[Galatea]

Originally Posted by DoulaSarah

I agree 100%. Who is the mean one? The one is the protecter, or the one who is the abuser?

Yeah, I said once, "IN MY OPINION, circumcision is abuse." Boy did that tick them off!

Originally Posted by callumsmom2001

I think they respond like this because they have no other recourse. There is no actual information to back up their argument(or they are not willing to find any) so they go on the defensive to try to save face.

This is what I think too, which is why I started the thread, but I wanted to make sure I was not being too smug/judgmental. Thanks for the backup!

[Past_VNE]

One woman actually said that her first husband didn't want their son circumsized (because he was intact), but "there's no way I'd change him with that nasty thing on his penis!" She said that about her OWN CHILD!

Do I get this right? She'll let her husband put a really big foreskin in her vagina, but she won't clean her son's little tiny foreskin with her hands? Am I missing something?

That is sooooo f'ed up, it's not even funny.

[Jessviola]

Originally Posted by Past_VNE

Do I get this right? She'll let her husband put a really big foreskin in her vagina, but she won't clean her son's little tiny foreskin with her hands? Am I missing something?

That is sooooo f'ed up, it's not even funny.

Yeah that has me totally Much nicer to change him with feces rubbing his raw, bloody penis, right?

How'll she react when the baby poops?

[paquerette]

Sounds to me like she has some serious deep-seated issues with her hubby and is choosing to take it out on her baby.

[LoveChild421]

I think by nature the people who are more likely to circ are more likely to be just plain illogical and bad at debates and have to resort to "you're mean, it's my decision, etc" I hate to say it but to me there are 3 types of people that circ- 1)ignorant, uninformed people 2) stupid, "I don't care what the facts are- I don't like the looks of it" people and 3)people who are forced by the stupid and or ignorant partner to have it done to their son.

None of these groups are exactly great at debate or looking at facts- if they were they would see that the facts don't support RIC- so instead they just have to resort to the level of a 5 year old on the playground and say "you're mean!"

well to me its laughable that I would be called mean- who's mutilating a poor newborn for cosmetic reasons??? abuse- absolutely!

sorry if this offends anyone, maybe I am mean : but again no more mean than someone who lets their child be mutilated...

[Stevie]

Originally Posted by Galatea

Yeah, I said once, "IN MY OPINION, circumcision is abuse." Boy did that tick them off!!

I did the same thing... I had an aquaintence once tell me that I had to respect her decision to circ her boys, and I looked her in the eye and said "But I truly believe deep in my soul that the circumcising of innocent babies is plain, flat out physical torture and abuse. I will never be able to respect that "choice". Sorry"

She hasn't said anything about it since but every chance I get I change my perfect baby boy in front of her