Are intactivists mean to pro-circs? - Page 2

[kxsiven]

It is a cultural thing, no one wants to see anything wrong in her own culture. Also it is a question about babies - to suggest that you are harming your child is a red button to many parents and I admire hugely every single parent who can see - against her cultural background - how bad thing MGM&FGM is.

Since I come from culture that has always been circumcision free and views both MGM and FGM as genital mutilation, I am often called mean by Americans who support MGM. The really 'funny' thing is that these same people who are calling me mean are saying how awful FGM is - or how on earth parents can circumcise boys that are older(in some muslim countries)without any pain relief.

[loving-my-babies]

Originally Posted by kxsiven

Since I come from culture that has always been circumcision free and views both MGM and FGM as genital mutilation, I am often called mean by Americans who support MGM. The really 'funny' thing is that these same people who are calling me mean are saying how awful FGM is - or how on earth parents can circumcise boys that are older(in some muslim countries)without any pain relief.

I get this EXACT same reaction here!! I am from Chile, South America.

[dynamohumm6]

I saw this accusation ALL the time when I was posting on an ivillage birth board. I think the simple fact of the matter is that pro-circ folks *know* they don't really have any solid reasoning to back them up, and any of the reasons they DO give are swiftly met with facts that shoot down their mis-information. NO parent likes to be told that they are doing something wrong with their child. NO parent wants to be called on the carpet for being ignorant about something as invasive as circumcision. Immediately, their defense mechanisms go up, and they will lash out.

It's the same reaction I get from people that want to debate atheism with me. I don't go around picking fights, but if I am asked, I will tell people my beliefs (or lack thereof), and immediately, they get huffy and bothered and end up telling ME that *I'M* being "mean". I've learned over the course of several years that for these people--and it's the same for circ people--the definition of "mean" is simply taking a strong stance against something that they hold dear to them. Something that they believe in, whether it be tenuously or solidly. The mere existance of someone that will actually challenge what they believe is threatening to them, and they act as such.

That's my take on it, anyway!

[forevermommy]

I feel there is a very thin line between being "mean" and "not mean". And I've seen it on both sides of all issues. I also think that it depends on the people involved and how thick their skin is.

I posted a few days ago about my heartache on the topic of circumcision. In my mind, most people were "not mean" in their responses to me. Actually, I felt a lot of love and compassion coming my way. And that was what I needed to get me through my time of weakness and insecurity.

I did receive one reply though that I felt was "mean" when I first read it. I thought it was so "mean" that I was ready to walk away from this message board completely. And then I thought about it. I considered how thick your skin needs to be when talking about anything so emotionally charged.

I considered that the person who wrote the reply really doesn't know me, my background, and all of the other "dogma" I am having pushed at me constantly; not only by my dh, but by my family, my in-laws, and my friends; and not only on the subject of circumcision but on all the parenting decisions I've made; extended breastfeeding, co-sleeping, and AP. This person may not have read my post in the light in which I had written it. Does this make her "mean?" No, not really. But at the time, it really rubbed me the wrong way and it really hurt.

A little off topic here but again on the subject of "meaness." I'm the first person among my family, in-laws, and friends to do extended breastfeeding. First in my family to even attempt breastfeeding. I only made it to 27 months, I wanted to go longer but my dd didn't so...

I was having dinner with my "best-friend" the other night and she told me for the third time since I've become pregnant that I can't breastfeed a boy longer than a year. This was the 2nd time since discovering I was having a boy. She knows how I feel on the subject. Does this make her "mean?" Well, I'm beginning to wonder...

She is also pretty adament on her views of circumcision. I've told her that I'm no longer discussing that subject with anyone. So she got all huffy. I'm just worn out trying to convince others. The boy is coming out of my body. He is being born through my labor. I get to make the decision. NO ONE is touching his penis.

I'm finding it harder not to consider people as mean when they belittle my feelings, my questions, and my beliefs. I've realized my own growing.

If you had asked me 3 years ago while I was pregnant with my dd if I was going to circ if it was a boy I would have said yes, it is what my husband wants. (Thank God, I had a girl!!!)

But that was before breastfeeding which led to co-sleeping which led to attachment parenting, which led to Mothering Magazine, which has led me to no-circ. I am so thankful for my growth and I pray that I will continue to grow everyday.

At the same time, I hope that I'm never considered "mean."

[zaftigmama]

I completely agree that people who say they won't discuss the issue of circumcision because intactivists are mean, is someone who just doesn't want to debate the issue because they've made up their minds and know they don't have argument that makes sense.

But I often feel that when arguing for any attachment parenting view, it can be seen as mean. The things we argue for are co-sleeping or not CIO, breastfeeding, babywearing, CD, non- or selective vaxing, intactivism, etc., (I know there are many more and I'm in no way saying any AP mama as to agree with or argue for all of these). What these all have in common is that they can be harder on the parent, but more gentle to the child. So, it's natural that in our arguments we say whichever AP practice we're defending is 'better', 'gentler', 'more natural', 'less abusive', 'more beneficial to the mother-child dyad' - whatever. And that makes people mad.

We're indirectly saying that their decisions suck. So we're seen as mean. No matter how gently we put it, or how loving we are about our ideals, we're saynig their choices are less good, in some cases cruel and harmful or neglectful, and we have data to back us up. Does that make us mean? I don't know. I don't feel mean, but I believe what I believe which is that my kids come first. They don't cry for me at night (or during the day) because I'm tired. I don't circumcise because my in-laws think intact men are ugly. I don't bottle feed because people at the mall don't want to see me nursing.

I try to only give my opinion when asked directly and not antagonize. But I won't apologize for my views, and if they think I'm mean, oh well.

Take care!

[Galatea]

Originally Posted by zaftigmama

We're indirectly saying that their decisions suck. So we're seen as mean. No matter how gently we put it, or how loving we are about our ideals, we're saynig their choices are less good, in some cases cruel and harmful or neglectful, and we have data to back us up. Does that make us mean? I don't know.

I hate to sound like an old fogey, but I do think we suffer from the "no-fault" culture. No one is ever responsible and everything is okay, b/c it is your opinion. It is much easier to say that people are mean for not respecting your choices/mistakes than it is to confront yourself and find yourself lacking.

Is it mean to point out that someone unnecessarily destroyed 1/2 of their child's sexual functioning? No. We can't gloss over it forever if we want it to change. Saying we are mean is their last pathetic grasp at validation.

[AmandaBL]

yes, I'm mean

I can only speak for myself. I see people who circ as two different types. Most are the ones who don't question anything. They never even considder circ, shots or anything else any Dr recomends. These parents do it without thinking. They're ignorant & should be more actively interested in their childs well being. I'm not mean to them. I wish they'd try harder, but they're doing the best the can with the (very very little) info they have.

Then there's the other group. It is my PERSONAL OPINION that any mom who reads medical information on circumcision & understands the procedure and still chooses to have it done is not someone I want to spend time with. I'm sure (well, sort of) that they also love their children, and I know they are not monsters, but I can not for the life of me even BEGIN to grasp how a new mom can decide to do this while pregnant, and then, when the nurse comes to take that new baby, and that mom's heart stops & in that moment, all the info she's read flashes through her mind & she imagines what the next few minutes hold for her dear, sweet, helpless child.... If at that moment, that mom lets that nurse take her baby.... Sorry, but I'm not interested in being friends with those people. I know it's closed minded & extreemley judgemental. I know that I have NUMEROUS shortcommings of my own. But for gods sake, where's it gonna end?!?!? My son's ears stick out a little. Should we tack those back at birth because "at least he won't remember it? and then his ears will lay back like his dads?"

As far as doing "anything" for cultural or religious reasons, I don't see how someone can claim the need to follow that edict if they are not following the rest of their guiding text TO THE LETTER!!! If there actually is someone out there who is that committed to their religion that they strive to obey it in every facet of their life, then I guess I could buy that they truly believe their god demands this of them. But as for the people I've met who practice about 2 items their religion requires (I'm one of those, by the way : ) it irritates me when they choose to stand beside this particular archaic custom when 1000000 others are ignored. I know, I'm a nasty, nasty B*&%*. Again, I acknowledge that I'm judgemental and also have a # of my own shortcommings. Just my opinion. That and $5 will get you a latte.

[AmandaBL]

"there's no way I'd change him with that nasty thing on his penis!"

nak

If I ever met this woman, my meanness world reach a new and astounding level.

[Frankly Speaking]

Originally Posted by mommyofzsanna

I am so thankful for my growth and I pray that I will continue to grow everyday.

That is a refreshing attitude. It is something I have tried to do since my early 20's and I can not tell you how well it has served me. I'm definitely nowhere near through though. I figure I will probably reach my ultimate goal just a few days before my last day on the sunny side.




Frank

[Mommiska]

Mommyofzsanna - that was a lovely post. Thank you.

I've read some of the circ discussion boards (I've never posted), and to be honest, some of the anti-circ posts, sadly, are mean. I cringe when I read them, because I know that the venom and anger in them (which are justified, but not helpful, imho) are going to turn people off, rather than make them really think about what they are doing when they chose to circumcise their child.

But then other posts are very gentle and kind, and try to give the facts about circumcision in as non-abrasive a way as possible. And those posts are still sometimes called 'mean'.

So I think you have both - sometimes, intactivists can be insensitive or 'mean' in their approach to intactivism. Which is unfortunate, because while it might make them feel good, I doubt it saves many little boys from the pain and disfigurement of circumcision.

But also, circing parents obviously do read as 'mean' simple statements of fact - even if they are phrased gently.

I had this experience when a good friend of mine circumcised, despite all of the information I'd sent her about it. After her son's birth, she told me she'd circed. I thanked her for telling me, saying that I was sad to hear it.

And she wrote back huge amounts, telling me that she wasn't in an emotional state to be criticised, that I obviously thought she was a horrible person, but it wasn't my right to tell her that, etc., etc.

OK, friend - all I did was say that hearing your news made me sad, which you should already have known.

We got through it - but she was 'hearing' a lot of things that I hadn't said, you know?

It's really hard...but I do think it is worth being as gentle and non-accusing as we can with parents who choose circumcision. Attacking them won't save any babies, and that is the point, right?

[Frankly Speaking]

Sometimes I believe that anger can serve a useful purpose. Some people respond to different things.

A man who was circumcised and is very angry about it can show a parent how their son may also feel about it. A mother who was deceived into circumcising her son and is very angry about it may serve as an example to other parents of how they may feel some day.

On debate boards, I see success from both approaches. However a well reasoned and logical response that just makes common sense is what works best regardless of the demeanor of the writer. For instance one writer may say "I think circumcision is genital mutilation." while another may say "Some people think circumcision is genital mutilation but what really matters is how the owner of the penis thinks about it. No one else's opinion really matters, does it?" Both messages are provocative. The first will provoke a circumcised man, the wife or lover of a circumcised man or a parent of a circumcised male to get angry. The second message will provoke them to think about the issue and come to the conclusion you are promoting. While there may be some anger, they can't argue with your statement and question.




Frank

[CherryBomb]

Originally Posted by AmandaBL

"there's no way I'd change him with that nasty thing on his penis!"

nak

If I ever met this woman, my meanness world reach a new and astounding level.

I know, I was basically just shocked because I've otherwise enjoyed working with her and wouldn't have expected something so ignorant from her. Thankfully I quit at the end of this month. :/

[AmandaBL]

My husband makes fun of me because I just can't spend time with moms who arent AP. I'm just tired of trying to educate everyone. I know that's selfish, but good god! Don't some of these things come naturally to people? I was 8 months pregnant with my 2nd child before I realized there was a thing called "attachment parenting" I considder 80% of it commin sense. Most of the time, when I meet a mom at a party or wherever, I don't even have to try & sort them out. They see my baby and drop their horrid birth story on me, followed my the stressfull circ story, followed by their childs most recent round of reflux medications.... I just tell them my sons are intact & I believe in midwifery & home birth or at least gentle birth, so I avoided those problems, & that they need to have the ped explain the term "off label" to them as it applies to reflux. I tell them to check this site out for helpfull information & leave it at that. I just can't take it. I guess that's why I only have one friend who is a mom. I know lots of moms who would considder me their friend, but they are the ones who come to me for advise after they've run out of ideas. They think I'm so smart because I've bothered to look into childhood issues. Believe me - I'm not the smartest person in the world. I'm a hairdresser, and they call me to get permission to seccond guess their ped????? Anyway, I'm whining.

[Stevie]

[Gidget]

Originally Posted by Galatea

but I do think we suffer from the "no-fault" culture. No one is ever responsible and everything is okay, b/c it is your opinion.

I find that to be true about lots of parenting decisions. Circ, bf, CIO etc.

What really gets people is when they find out my boys were cut. They dont want to know that someone regrets and and will admit she mulitated her kids cause guess what? They may be expected to realize they made a mistake. And they don't want to admit they made such a major decision about their child withouth doing the research thoroughly first. Maybe it would make them feel like a bad parent. But to me, a bad parent is one who will not admit their mistakes so they can learn and grow from them.

Eddie is 10 so I rarely see his anymore, but I am still reminded how stupid I was when I change Isaac's diapers. It does not feel good.

[AmandaBL]

Maybe it would make them feel like a bad parent. But to me, a bad parent is one who will not admit their mistakes so they can learn and grow from them. ITA I get to do that with vax my 1st son has a very weak immune system & when people comment on it (which they regularly feel the need to) I tell them it was all the unnecessarry vaccinations & antibiotics.

[TigerTail]

i hear exasperation in a lot of anti-circ poster's voices. as far as 'mean', nothing begins to descibe the nasty ill-informed venom that spews out of the circ proponents anytime i peek *any*where that has a 'balanced' viewpoints (the old aol circ forum comes to mind.)

we say 'exposed' 'raw' 'pitiful' when we describe the open wound a circ's baby's penis. the words that are used to describe a beautiful intact baby boy, the way god made him, are wicked & vicious. if being mean is taking someone to task for baby torture, i guess we're mean. so what word do we use for people who call intact babies & men the names they do, starting with impugning their cleanliness & calling them animal-like & taking off from there?

suse

[mommymarliah]

yeah I'm mean, but I am more than willing to be mean when it comes to the well being of an innocent child.

[mommymarliah]

Originally Posted by AmandaBL

Maybe it would make them feel like a bad parent. But to me, a bad parent is one who will not admit their mistakes so they can learn and grow from them. ITA I get to do that with vax my 1st son has a very weak immune system & when people comment on it (which they regularly feel the need to) I tell them it was all the unnecessarry vaccinations & antibiotics.

I completely agree! I vaxxed my two older sons and they are both damamged because of it (one is delayed, one autistic) I tell people all the time "I was wrong, and I screwed up big time, don't make the same mistake" is it easy to say that? no not at all. We all want to be "perfect" parents. But none of us are. Part of making things right is admitting the wrong and not repeating it.