Refusal

[kathywiehl]

What do you all do (or would you do if) your preteen completely refused to do something?

For instance, my 10 year old dd was really cranky and mouthy the other day. I told her that since she was acting that way, she must be really tired and that night bedtime would be moved to 8pm instead of 9pm. She normally gets up around 6 am, so this could very well be the reason for her crankiness and I feel completely justified in doing this.

Her response to me was "I'm not going to bed at 8, I hate you, you are mean and you can't make me!"

She's right, I can't make her. I can't force her into her bed and make her sleep. Even if I could, she'd be out of bed in a minute with the lights on doing whatever she wants.

This sort of thing happens alot. Another exampe- she was supposed to help me do empty the diswasher and load the dirty dishes a few days ago. She got snippy with me and I said "okay you are being disrespectful and rude to me, so I do not want to do this with you. You can empty the dishwasher and load the dirty dishes yourself" I walked away. She did not empty the dishwasher, instead she threw a fit, crying and telling me that I can't make her do this and that she wasn't going to. Well, she threw such a tantrum that I couldn't stand to be around her anymore so I sent her to her room. Again, she refused to go. She said the same old stuff- "you can't make me, I don't want to, if you send me to my room I'll just act worse and you'll be sorry"

We start counseling in 2 weeks but I need some suggestions now. Any ideas?

[SagMom]

Originally Posted by kathywiehl

What do you all do (or would you do if) your preteen completely refused to do something?

Is it always the punishments that she's refusing? From your examples, it seems that way, but I realize they're just examples. That, as you obviously already know, is the trouble with these things--you can't "make" them do anything. Sometimes, when my dd is being short with me, I just ignore that and ask if something is bothering her--often it's not about me at all, but she's upset about something else entirely and just sort of using me to get her frustrations out. Once we talk about what's really bothering her, she'll apologize for being snippy.

I would try to find the reason behind her "crankiness" and address that--If she really was tired, maybe she would have been more agreeable to going to bed early if she saw it as a remedy rather than a punishment? Or maybe she was cranky for some other reason....was she involved in something else when asked to empty the dishwasher? My dd especially doesn't like to be interrupted when she's reading, although she'll be perfectly agreeable to doing ___ when she finishes the chapter she's on, yk?

Maybe on a "good" day you could sit down over tea or whatever and talk about what's going on--I'd be willing to bet that she's not too happy with the way she's relating to you either.

[kathywiehl]

Joan,

Thanks for your response. I do try and talk to her to find out the underlying issues and I never present these consequences to her as a punishment because they are not. I sent her to bed because she was obviously tired and I told her that she needed to empty the dishwasher alone because I don't enjoy being treated rudely. Not a punishment at all, just a natural consequence to her actions.

What I'm trying to figure out is what I could have done differently in that moment. After she starts throwing a fit and refusing, then what? What do I do then? What do you actually say and do immediately after your preteen tells you that he/she is just not going to comply with the consequences? I'm really struggling here.

I realize that talking it over when things are good might be a way to prevent her from behaving the way she did in the first place and we are working on that. Kayla suffers from depression and it makes her extremely irritable and she is very, very rude sometimes. What I'm looking for is what to do/say when I try to implement a natural consequence to the rudeness and she just basically tells me to shove it.

[Jenne]

What we do when we get the "you can't make me, I'm not gonna's" temper tantrums here is essentially the world stops until whatever was asked is completed. We use "choice" language here a lot so that dn came feel in control. So we ask him to make his bed. He throws a fit with the you can't make thrown in for good measure. We respond with "You are right we cannot make you do anything, however, until your bed is made and your attitude is more pleasant you stay in your room." Or sit at the kitchen table or on the steps or in the car whatever the situation fits. Then nothing occurs until the request is met. No eating, no playing, no phone, no going outdoors, no going anywhere. Once the request is complied with we process along the lines of what Joan was talking about. Because defiance is such an issue with DN and we are trying to help him to accept authority appropriately we do first compliance and then process. Whatever works for you though, I think both components are essential for teens.

I have also on really tough days been known to say things like "Well, since you don't think you can vaccuum the living room I don't think I'll be able to take you to you friends house. I'm sorry that you have chosen to be disrespectful. That is not okay" All said without emotion, just matter-of-factly and then followed through upon. I suspect that the reason your daughter is throwing fits is because they work for her--either she needs the big emotional release or because it gets her what she wants. People do the easiest behavior with the most payback.

Hope these ideas help...

Jenne

[UnschoolnMa]

Joan's post was terrific, and I so agree.

If one of my kids' refused to do something, I would realize that they felt really strongly about the issue and we would stop and talk about it. Really though, I never "make" them do anything so it's not been an issue. I may suggest, or question but I cannot remember the last time I insisted they do something. They are in on all the decisions that involve them so they don't have much to refuse I guess. I try to really make sure they know their voice and opinions matter... no one likes to have decisions made for them, especially the older the child gets IMO.

I think in that situation I would have stopped and said, "I am sorry that you are feeling so upset that you feel like you hate me. I thought that you were very tired and that it was making you cranky. If you were tired I thought an earlier bedtime would help out. I am not feeling very good about the way you've been talking to me. I'd like us to take a bit to calm down, and then we could talk about what's up with you and what we can decide together." Or something like that.

[journeymom]

Taking notes for future referance...

[Dar]

Those aren't natural consequences. They're the so-called "logical consequences", maybe, which is a "nicer" word for punishment. There were just a couple of threads on this issue in the GD forum...

I try to avoid getting into power struggles in general, and especially as your child gets older.

Being proactive is a good idea. If things aren't going well,I tend to state my boundaries, rather than innflicting a punishment on my kid. So, I'd tell my kid that I didn't want to be around her when she was cranky, and go out for a walk. I also tell her, "I don't like to be talked to in that way" sometimes. Often disengaging for a short time helps defuse the situation, by leaving the immediate area and doing something calming. I do always make sure to go back, so she doesn't see it as being ditched becase she's acting unpleasant. If she's unpleasant all day, I call her on it and ask what's up, and maybe suggest some things that might improve her mood, if it seems hormonal... a bath, a walk, whataver.

Dar

[Leonor]

Originally Posted by kathywiehl

I sent her to bed because she was obviously tired and I told her that she needed to empty the dishwasher alone because I don't enjoy being treated rudely. Not a punishment at all, just a natural consequence to her actions.

This is a problem I see in GD at times. I believe it's not really a natural consequence because if it's something you tell her to do as a consequence of what she did wrong, it's punishment. And if she is aware it's you telling her what to do, that will start a power struggle.

I believe she doesn't want to go to bed just because she doesn't want to do what you tell her, she wants to show you it's her own life and she wants to control it. So she might go to bed late even if she's too sleepy to function properly, just to show you.

I wonder if it would help to advise her using the personal voice of experience instead of telling her what to do, like "I get cranky if I don't get enough sleep, don't you think it would help if you went to bed earlier?". And "It wouldn't be nice if I was being unpleasant to everyone for lack of sleep".

What I'm trying to figure out is what I could have done differently in that moment. After she starts throwing a fit and refusing, then what? What do I do then? What do you actually say and do immediately after your preteen tells you that he/she is just not going to comply with the consequences? I'm really struggling here.

Be honest and tell her how she makes you feel. Also tell her that you actually could make her do many things (you could lock the room door and take her lightbulb away and all sorts of wicked strategies to force her to sleep that I don't really advise you to do) but you just won't because it's not right.

Note that if she really thought you couldn't make her do things, that you didn't have power over her, she wouldn't say that. She is scared you think of a way to make her do it and is trying to stand for herself, bluffing courage.

[2tadpoles]

Originally Posted by Jenne

What we do when we get the "you can't make me, I'm not gonna's" temper tantrums here is essentially the world stops until whatever was asked is completed. We use "choice" language here a lot so that dn came feel in control. <snip>

Because defiance is such an issue with DN and we are trying to help him to accept authority appropriately we do first compliance and then process. Whatever works for you though, I think both components are essential for teens.

I have also on really tough days been known to say things like "Well, since you don't think you can vaccuum the living room I don't think I'll be able to take you to you friends house. I'm sorry that you have chosen to be disrespectful. That is not okay" All said without emotion, just matter-of-factly and then followed through upon.

Things are very similar at my house. My oldest is the least helpful person I have ever met in my life. He is slowly getting better.

In my personal opinion, families are teams and everyone should help to their ability. I really don't ask or expect much of my kids in regards to housework.... I'm trying to expect and ask more because I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed and I think they're capable of doing much more than they do.

In a nutshell, if my children don't have the inclination to help me with things, then I don't have the inclination to take them places, pick up their friends to come over, or buy them junk they want. They're old enough to understand that if I have too much to do, I don't have time or energy for "extras."

They also know that if they behave in an ugly manner, then nobody will want to be around them.... including me. I'm not a whipping post.

[kathywiehl]

Originally Posted by Leonor

Be honest and tell her how she makes you feel.

I've done that and she just smiles and says "Good, that's what I wanted to do." She can be a real snot sometimes.

Like I said, she has some emotional issues right now that make her different from other kids. She is pretty nasty all the time, no matter what we are doing or saying.

[SagMom]

Originally Posted by kathywiehl

Joan,

I sent her to bed because she was obviously tired and I told her that she needed to empty the dishwasher alone because I don't enjoy being treated rudely. Not a punishment at all, just a natural consequence to her actions.

I used the word "punishment" because it was something you imposed. I'm pretty sure you're not looking for a debate over "natural" v "imposed" consequences, but it seems a natural consequence to not emptying the dishwasher would be that the dirty dishes stack up.

What I'm trying to figure out is what I could have done differently in that moment. After she starts throwing a fit and refusing, then what? What do I do then? What do you actually say and do immediately after your preteen tells you that he/she is just not going to comply with the consequences? I'm really struggling here.

I'm sorry you're struggling.

I don't give my kids consequences, so maybe I'm not the one to be responding, but it *sounds* to me like there are two issues here. 1) the way your dd speaks to you and 2) her refusal to comply with consequences.

What I was proposing earlier is that you just address #1 and skip the consequences. This eliminates the whole "you can't make me" problem. Like Dar said, maybe remove yourself from her presence if her words are upsetting you, or like unschoolnma (my new role model, btw ) so calmly phrased it--explain to her the reasoning behind your suggestions as more like advice rather than consequences--maybe they'd be more acceptable to her that way.

It's okay to walk away when you're angry or upset and revisit the issue later. Maybe you could both agree to do that?

One last thought is that humor can be a diffussor as well. My dd once got snippy when I asked for help clearing the table--she said something like "Why am *I* always the one to have to do the dirty work?" I just smiled and said sweetly, "Because you're my FAVORITE daughter" to which she smirked and reminded me that "Mom, I'm your ONLY daughter." We laughed, and she explained that a show was starting she didn't want to miss the beginning of it--we agreed to clear the table later, she apologized, and that was that.

I'll be the first to admit, it's not always easy to come up with a funny response when you're feeling put upon, but on a good day, when I'm feeling clever, I can sometimes pull it off.

[Irishmommy]

I'm responsible for lots of the views on this thread, but I have nothing to add except

[lisahas2cats]

I haven't read all the replies, so I'm sorry if I'm redundant.

While DS never went into "You can't make me!" mode (he's almost 15 now, so there's still plenty of time...LOL), something that works with him when he gets in a "mood" to be uncooperative is to simply say "Okay", and remind him that cooperation runs two ways. And next time he wants to do something, I remind him that because he chose to be so uncooperative (or nasty, or mean-mouthed), I don't especially feel like going out of my way to help him do something fun. Fortunately this rarely happens.

I could see saying something like "You're right, I can't *make* you go to bed at 8. But if you choose not to, the consequence will be that when you want to do XYZ, you won't be allowed to. It's your choice". Same with helping with dishes: "You're right, I can't grab your hands and curl them around dishes and force you to put them away. But if you choose not to help, you won't be able to do XYZ".

Oh, and about "If you make me go to my room I'll just act worse, then you'll be sorry". If it were me, I would be saying "I'll take my chances. On to your room now". And if the behavior escalates, things come out of her room (stereo, phone, makeup, whatever is in there). And they could be earned back by good behavior.

Regardless, good luck. I know it's no fun being a mom some days I hope you find what works for you.

Lisa

[Mylie]

My son is 15 we had to address this very issue recently...

Alot of people probably won't like how we handled it but I tried gentle dicapline and talking with him ect....It didn't work...He was very disrespectful to me...He thought only to get what he wanted and was very rude and snotty and yelled and sreamed when angry...

Some might say that if I respected my son more I wouldn't have to do this but I do respect my son...I knock on his door...I listen to him...He is unschooled and we follow his cues with learning....But I refuse to let him treat me with disrespect and scream and me like a non-person that he hates because he can't get his way...I feel I deserse to be treated kindly just like he deserves too...Hense this is what I did....

when I ask Greg to do something like unload the dishwasher or take out the trash I do just that...Greg will you please take out the trash for me as I am in the middle of making dinner...

Sometimes he will do it without the snarky...Uhhhhh!!! Why do I have to do it??? I don't want to......Or No I am not doing it...

I refuse to yell at him...He is a person and deserves that just like I do as a person...So I just leave him alone...Pretty soon he will ask me to take him to his friends house or buy him something....And I tell him that he was really rude to me and when he yelled at me it really hurts me and I will not do nice things when he has treated me that way....The trash probably didn't get taken out by him that day but usually the next time he does....It has taken several times of me gently reminding him that respect works both ways but he is responding...Instead of the nasty refusals I am now getting ok Mom I will in a few minutes as soon as I am done or Sure Mom....And I say thank you...

It wasn't easy at first...I wanted to buy him what he wanted or take him to fun places and he sure did get mad at first ...ect...but I knew I had to be firm..We couldn't stay like that...Neither of us was truley happy...HTH Love mylie xx


Lots of hugs I know exactly how you feel and it is hard...I will be thinking of you...

[cresorchid]

I'm probably not going to be very popular on this list either, but I think respect is very important. Of course, you have to be setting a good example as some previous posters have mentioned. You need to respect your children both in manner and in actual words.

However, if you treat your child with respect as much as possible and your child still behaves this way, you need to set things straight. When my son acts this way (17 yo) I politely inform him that we are a team and we work together to accomplish things. If he wants food, he can put dishes away, help cook, etc. If he refuses to be "part of the team" I suspend all helpful behaviors that he requests. I basically put on hold any of the nice things I would generally do as a parent without even thinking about them–and it does take work since much of what we do as parents is automatic.

In one case a few years ago, my son was disrespecting a rule I had about not letting the animals in one room of our house where we have lots of electronics. He was going out of his way to make it clear that "I couldn't force him" which was true. However, he left a CD from a video game in that room and I destroyed it. When he came to me in confusion, I told him that since he was going out of his way to disrespect me and endanger my possessions, I had destroyed the CD.

No, that isn't the least bit kind. But it did work. He NEVER broke that rule again. Nor did he whine about my having broken the CD. He got a confused look on his face, stood there a few minutes thinking about it, and then went away. He never mentioned it again. In fact, I don't think I have ever since broken or taken away another item of my son's since that day about 5 years ago. I think it worked because it was so out of character for me that it REALLY made him stop and think. We have to let our kids understand that while they can get away with a lot of things with us, most other individuals won't put up with that. Yet if we never allow them to experience how others will respond (such as corresponding disrespect or lack of help) they will NOT get it until they leave home and have some very unpleasant experiences.

[journeymom]

I refuse to yell at him...He is a person and deserves that just like I do as a person...So I just leave him alone...Pretty soon he will ask me to take him to his friends house or buy him something....And I tell him that he was really rude to me and when he yelled at me it really hurts me and I will not do nice things when he has treated me that way....The trash probably didn't get taken out by him that day but usually the next time he does....It has taken several times of me gently reminding him that respect works both ways but he is responding...Instead of the nasty refusals I am now getting ok Mom I will in a few minutes as soon as I am done or Sure Mom....And I say thank you...

I love this.

The only problem I can see is that in our home, dh would have a problem if I asked ds/dd to do something and, through the scenario above, I ended up doing it later, even if the long term outcome is that ds/dd's behavior improved. Dh thinks the kids should do what they're told pretty much immediatly. And if they don't it's because there's something wrong (I'm being too lenient.)

I like the idea that families are teams.

Kathywiehl, please keep posting here. I want to know how you progress with this.

[2tadpoles]

Originally Posted by journeymom

....in our home, dh would have a problem if I asked ds/dd to do something and, through the scenario above, I ended up doing it later, even if the long term outcome is that ds/dd's behavior improved. Dh thinks the kids should do what they're told pretty much immediatly.

Same at my house. That's why the things I consider to be "chores" (taking out the trash, sweeping the floor, cleaning bedrooms, etc.), I try to have done while dh is at work. That way, if there is conflict, it is a 2-way conflict instead of a 3-way conflict.

[Dar]

Originally Posted by cresorchid

In one case a few years ago, my son was disrespecting a rule I had about not letting the animals in one room of our house where we have lots of electronics. He was going out of his way to make it clear that "I couldn't force him" which was true. However, he left a CD from a video game in that room and I destroyed it. When he came to me in confusion, I told him that since he was going out of his way to disrespect me and endanger my possessions, I had destroyed the CD.

Well, that was a chin-dropper for me.

Rain says, "Wow, like if you didn't do the dishes I could break your laptop? That'd suck."

I sure don't want to teach my child that if someone does something you don't like, you should purposely do something that harms them. And actually, your child wasn't intending to hurt you at all, it sounds like - he was being thoughtless, not crual. Intentionally breaking his CD was cruel, in my book. I wouldn't expect my daughter to tolerate cruelty either at home or outside the home.

At 12, my daughter is already operating competently in the real world. Last year she had a paying job - she made almost $1000 total, $6.75 an hour, and did a great job, better than one of the adult employees - and this year she's been stopping by my job and offering to help, and she ends up doing some of the same tasks I do when I'm there, and she's competent and valued.

I think it's right to respond honestly when kids do things, either speaking rudely or not helping. I don't think it's right to retaliate - you did something I didn't like, so I do something you don't like. It's childish and mean, IMO.

Dar

[MarineWife]

If my ds is speaking to me in what I consider a rude or disrespectful or hurtful tone, I stop the conversation right there and address the behavior. I tell him that I think he's being disrespectful to me and I don't want to hear what he has to say when he talks that way to me. Usually, he is interrupting me while I'm trying to talk so I also tell him that I will listen to him after he has let me finish what I'm saying. If I ask him to do something like clean the dishes and he refuses, I don't punish him or try to force him to do them. I may end up not doing something for him because I had to spend my time cleaning the dishes or because I'm tired from having to do all the housework or something like that. With the crankiness and the bedtime thing, I would try to talk to my child and find out why they think they are cranky. I get cranky lots of times and it has nothing at all to do with me being tired. If my dh told me I had to go to bed because I was in a bad mood and must be tired, I would be pissed.

Originally Posted by journeymom

dh would have a problem if I asked ds/dd to do something and, through the scenario above, I ended up doing it later, even if the long term outcome is that ds/dd's behavior improved. Dh thinks the kids should do what they're told pretty much immediatly. And if they don't it's because there's something wrong (I'm being too lenient.)

There are two ways that I have read about for dealing with this sort of thing. First, don't ask your child to do something. Rather tell him what you expect him to do. For example, rather than saying, "Will you please put the dishes away?", which tells him that you are giving him a choice and won't mind if he refuses, say "Son, the dishwasher is full of clean dishes. I need you to put them away." In this way of dealing with it, you have made it very clear that you expect him to put the clean dishes away. This would address the situation when you really want your child to do something and you, personally, have a problem with him not doing it. Or, continue as you have been asking your child to do stuff. Explain to your dh that you asked your child to help. You did not tell him he had to do something. Therefore, he is not breaking your dh's rule that children should do what they are told.

[2tadpoles]

Originally Posted by Dar

I sure don't want to teach my child that if someone does something you don't like, you should purposely do something that harms them.

I agree. I've always told them that revenge is petty and makes you just as bad as the other person.