Refusal - Page 3

[kathywiehl]

Thanks again Lara! I agree she is a lovely girl and thankfully she only acts ODD-ish when we are home, so thankfully most people outside of our immediate family haven't witnessed her behavior.

I do agree that it's way more complicated than just saying "oh she has ODD, so this is what you do to fix it" Counseling will help immensely if we have found a good counselor (something we will know within the next few months, I guess.)

I wanted to cry last night. I went into her room to get a laundry basket and on her bed was a piece of paper. On the top was written "behavior checklist" then she had a list of 3 behaviors that she felt needed to be corrected. At the bottom there was a place for three signatures- hers, mine and Mike's. She hasn't presented this to us yet and I don't know if she will, but I have noticed that she has been trying harder.

[magnoliablue]

Kathy, I read all these posts and wanted to share my own experience with you.

My oldest, who will be 13, showed many symptoms of ODD. His dad and I separated over two years ago, and much of the behavior stemmed from the divorce. He also had witnessed his father being abusive to me, both verbally and physically, over the years of the marriage.

He went into therapy immediately after his dad left the home. We had thought a diagnosis of ODD was a given, but he had never displayed any signs of this at school or anywhere else, only at home. After evaluation, he does not have it. He had severe depression as a result of everything going on, and some Post traumatic stress syndrome symptoms. HIs therapist said it is very rare for a child with ODD to only display the symptoms at home, and not in another environment. A child with ODD will challenge any authority figure, not only parents.

Things have gotten a lot better as he has learned to better handle his anger, but now we are heading into the hormones. Thankfully the tools we were given to work with him through the last few years also will help us now, but they did include giving consequences, something I struggled with as a GD parent.

The therapist understood my philosophies, but said that some children do need boundaries given, and they do need consequences. My son had been through so much, and because I was going through so much myself, I wasn't as involved as I needed to be, and pretty much did NO discipline, because I didn't want the kids to get mad at me. I basically parented out of fear. That is wrong. You can't be afraid your kids won't like you if you take a privilege away for something they do wrong. There has to be logical consequences and accountability for actions. Yes, GD and just talking works for the average child in the average situation, but some family dynamics mean you have to take a different approach, or a combination of many approaches to find the one that works.

My son and I get along better than we ever did. We still have moments when he challenges me, but he knows now that there are expectations on everyone, and when you don't do the things expected of you, it has a snowball effect on everyone.

[MarineWife]

GD does not mean no discipline and no consequences. That is a huge misconception, imo. It means that you treat your children with respect and use logical and natural consequences rather than harsh, arbitrary punishment.

[magnoliablue]

I agree with you Marinewife. Unfortunately many people don't see it that way, but hey, we all make choices based on what works for our situation. What I was doing before was not working, he needed a more stern approach, he needed to learn how to respect me, but since he had always seen his father disrespect me, it was basically like starting from the very beginning, and unlearning behaviors. I don't give unnatural punishments or consequences, they usually are a biproduct of whatever was or wasn't done to result in them..like not bringing in your lunch box after being told to three times results in having a bag lunch that day. Things along those lines.

As they grow, you have to adjust the way you parent. I can use the GD, the redirection approach, etc..with my 4 year old with no problem. I can sometimes even get away with it with the older two, but it is not as easy as it was when they were younger.

[MarineWife]

Karen, I can only imagine how difficult your situation was. I didn't mean to imply that you had done anything wrong. You certainly don't need to explain or justify yourself to me. I think one can be stern and still be GD.

[jannan]

with my teen, i explain that we all have jobs to do. my job is to work and to take care of the house. his job is his chores around the house. if he does'nt cooperate then i resind on something. on more than one occassion i've asked him to do something and he'll get angry and pissy. so when he needs something from me Like money or a ride he won't get it. it is a two way street. he is practically adults.......

[our veggie baby]

I have nothing really to add to help your situation,, as my child is not even due until May so I would be kind of talking out of my *beep*...

However, I myself was a teenager, and boy did I really o a number on my parents at different times. I think it stems from SO many things--puberty and body changes, social pressures, trying to gain some independence yet at the same time feeling like a child, testing limits, not feeling *understood*...and about 230497320 other factors.

I want to add too, for what it's worth, it is my opinion (like another poster mentioned above) that if someone has a "disorder", something serious enough to be labeled---the aspects come out in all areas, not just at home and not just to your parents....it might not be as extreme in other situations, but believe me, if it is a "disorder" or whatever, it is not just isolated to home and your parents.

I am VERY AGAINST the medicating of kids in this society. Of course I feel, for a small number, medication can be a helpful too when all other avenues are explored and that there are some children who benefit from them---but at NOWHERE NEAR the rate they are being prescribed and used and abused by parents looking for (imo) an "easier" kid....I am not suggesting at all that you fall into that catagory, I just feel many parents seem very quick to drug their children, given the alarming rate at which these pills are prescribed.

Anyway, I think therapy is a FANTASTIC idea and if the therapist is a good one and the parties are open to it, that therapy can help almost ANYONE---whether you just have *minor* issues, or more severe. Crap, even if you don't think you have any issues, I still think good therapy does wonders! After all, who doesn't like to be objectively listened to and validated and helped with solutions?

Anyway, I wish your family luck. I know this is not an easy time. Take care.

[Deja]

Cresorchild;
I think your response was excellent, and gave your child an idea of how the world outside your door will respond to the behavior that you described. I wholeheartedly agree with your approach, and note that it was not only effective, your child was in no way harmed by your methods. In fact, I'd say the method was extremely beneficial to him.

[johub]

This sounds so much like my almost 13 year old.
She doesn't actually say "you can't make me" but her inaction strongly implies it.
I have to agree with some of the posters that gentle positive discipline doesn't always do the trick for all kids.
I have always treated my daughter with respect and have always talked her through everything. I have sought in all circumstances to make her a partner in her behavior by getting her voluntary cooperation and helping her understand intellectually and emoitonally why a certain expectation is fair and good.
And what I have now is a child who does not treat me or other authority figures with respect. By seeking her voluntary cooperation I have given her the unintended message that she has a choice NOT to behave.
I am really struggling with this right now. I am not a yeller. I HATE to punish. I do not want to breed more defiance by increasing her anger. But I cannot put up with her disrespect and insubordination any longer. Her behavior is ruling the family.
I have spend years asking nicely and saying. "I dont speak to you that way , I would appreciate it if you did not speak to me that way."
"We are a team and we all have to do our share. I am very busy and it is unfair of you to expect me to clean up after you."
I am talked out.
I think that as children's temperaments differ so does their response to different discipline methods.
I spent years reminding myself that "a child who feels right acts right". But for some reason treating my child with respect has failed to elicit her respect. Modeling kindness has failed to imprint kindness in her behavoir.
I am so there with you right now!
Maybe I need to look into a little counciling for us too.
Joline

[MarineWife]

I posted a link a while back about the natural development of teenagers. It made it very clear that most of the behaviors you all are describing are normal for this age. It is not necessarily because of your parenting. I'll see if I can find it and post it here for you all to peruse.

[Irishmommy]

Yes!! If you could find the link, I will love you forever!!

[Deja]

Originally Posted by kathywiehl

She's coming home today from a weekend at her dads (where she doesn't behave this way at all) so keep us in your prayers.

Then she can control herself.

[kathywiehl]

I think at her father's house there is nothing to control. She gets everything she wants, has no chores, no homework because she's only there on weekends and school breaks, and they pretty much let her eat all the junk she wants. What's to control? She's happy there because they aren't "mean" to her, lol!

We have had some progress lately. I've decided that I need to let go of some of my somewhat controlling behavior and stop trying to make her do things. I simply say "okay, you may choose not to _______, but if you do, this is what the consequence will be, doesn't matter to me one bit and you can choose however you want." Most of the time, she has been trying to argue for a minute then when she sees that I'm not budging and that the consequences are real and that I'm not going to engage in any verbal battles with her, she usually grumbles a bit as she walks off to do whatever it was I asked her to do. Sometimes she'll say she doesn't care and it doesn't matter what the consequences are and still refuses to cooperate and she deals with loss of priveleges or whatever the consequence was. I just act like it doesn't matter much to me.

So far things have been better, but we still need the counseling.

[MarineWife]

Here's that link.

Child Development: 13-16 years old

kathy, sounds like you are on the right track. I have to do that with my 14yo ds sometimes. Once he knows there are logical or rational or reasonable consequences and I'm not going to discuss or argue about it, the struggle is over.

[johub]

Thank you for this link! I will share it with my DH. I am in tears of relief right now.
We had a good night last night. I had seethed all day and was just about ready to pounce when dd got home. BUt she was in an easygoing mood and we did a lot of talking rather than fighting. I learned a lot. Especially that her nasty attitude is often a result of her perceived disapproval by me.
Deep down in her core she is still the same girl and I had the privilege of seeing that yesterday. That should keep me going for quite some time!
Joline

[Irishmommy]

Thanks for the link.

[MarineWife]

Originally Posted by johub

I have spend years asking nicely and saying. "I dont speak to you that way , I would appreciate it if you did not speak to me that way."
"We are a team and we all have to do our share. I am very busy and it is unfair of you to expect me to clean up after you."

This might be a splitting of hairs thing but sometimes it makes a difference. Rather than saying, "I would appreciate it if you did not speak to me that way," you could say, "It is not acceptable for you to speak to me that way." In the first statement you are asking the person not to treat you badly. In the second statement you are telling the person that you will not tolerate being treated badly.

Originally Posted by johub

I spent years reminding myself that "a child who feels right acts right".

I agree with this but sometimes people feel bad just because and it has nothing to do with you or your parenting. I hope that the link I posted helps with that. Basically, since 13yos are going through so many changes so quickly they do feel bad but it's a physiological thing and it will pass.

[girlndocs]

They're also going through some powerful *cultural* changes, especially girls. The cultural message of what's expected of them as people changes dramatically between girlhood & womanhood and at times it can be far more destructive than we realize. I highly recommend Reviving Ophelia by Mary Pipher.