Csection Support Thread April 2005 (cont discussion from March) - Page 12

[OnTheFence]

<<you do indeed sound rude. But, whatever... that's what I have to deal with, people who have no idea what I feel like and why. BTW-- I have since received counseling... from a counselor who thought I should stop bf'ing and go back to work to "find myself" insteadof focusing on being a mother. Yeah! Also, my ds didn't actually take a first breath... it took 20 minutes to resesitate him and he was on a ventilator for a few days. He was cut out of my uterus 7 weeks before he was even due. He was so NOT BORN!! And THAT is what I need to wrap myself around, accept, and move on from. I grow every day. I'm writing it down.... getting it out.... moving on. I delight in my son every day. He's truly amazing. He and I are like super-heros having survived this! I'm hoping to stay away from this thread from now on and I'm sorry to have entered it and stirred things up as it is. I totally do not find that, a bunch of mamas telling me to "get over it and accept responsiblity for it and move on", supportive at all! I have carried the weight
of responsiblity for it for two + years... and I know that the "get over it and move on part" comes from passing a bit of that weight around to other responsible parties and giving myself more healing and less "responsiblity". anyway..>>

I know you said you wouldn't come back to this thread but I hope you peek in.

First, I have felt like you have. And yes I got over it. I think that is healthy. To move past the tough situations in our life, the horrors, and try to find meaning and life lessons. For me overcoming my first cesarean was a spiritual journey, not an ego one. You use the term failure in your posts -- that is a personal issue, one placed on you by yourself. You have chosen to wear that term in connection to yourself and your son's birth and that isn't healthy. There is no doubt a therapist would tell you to move on from that. While I don't agree with the quit breastfeeding ang go back to the work idea she had, I think there is a certain sense of finding oneself after a traumatic event.

I can tell by your posts you are angry, I even sense bitterness and only you can work through them. I like another poster, think you need some sort of counseling, only because of the references you have made about your son's birth, not viewing him as being born, and about his birthday. I find that sad, not only you but him.

I don't believe anyone here is saying you should be saying YeeHaaa over your past experience and that you should be happy it happened, if that is what you got from the many posts since your first, I think you should reread them without such defensiveness and anger. I know that I will not be happy with how things happened over 8 years ago at my first surgical birth, what I was happy about is that I did have a healthy baby and that through the years I learned many life lessons from the event that have made me a better person, a better mother.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by OnTheFence

Storm I am very glad to see you post this.
i really hope you stick around and that you really get a wonderful birth, no matter how it happens!

I think I will. I'm really working to find the point where having the baby at all is a wonderful birth. I'm not there yet, but I think I'm making progress.

Not too long ago, I'd have reacted about like edamommy to the idea that my baby is going to be born, even if it's a c-section. I've violently rejected the idea that a section is a birth...but I'm starting to come around. I've never thought that other women who have c-sections are failures, so it doesn't make a lot of sense to put that kind of burden on myself!

[shannon0218]

Storm Bride, I too am really glad to see you post that--it's hard to know inflection on a computer and I hoped you didn't think that I was in any way belittling your feelings-and I am flattered that you feel my questions may have helped. I too think you will have a great birth--however it happens--you will be prepared, you will know what to ask for--and best of all, if they say something just can't happen that way--you'll know differently

Kimberly, again I agree with OTF and Heavenly, the thing that saddens me most in your posts is the way you talk of your son's "birth" and his birth day being horrible experiences for you. I can't even imagine the burden that places on a child and whether you tell him that straight out ever or if you keep it in--children know. By the sounds of things you and your son both would have died without an emergency c-section--if things were truly emergent, there are a loy of things your OB needs to be doing in that 7 min between when you found out and he makes that cut, have you spoken to him about it? Is there a chance that in the 5 min that would have helped you your son may have died??? You may have died??? There is NO excuse for how you were treated after--just none, but it may just help you if you knew he didn't have time to councel you-not because he was a jerk, but because his only concern at the time was to save your life--it was afterall an emergency. As to your comment that you could not have prepared because you didn't know until 7 min before, I don'y think you actually read what I wrote. We all need to prepare for all the possibilities--thats why I said what I said about it bugging me when I hear other women on these boards say things like "yeah, then the dumb OB started talking about c-sections and I tuned him out." It's wonderful to be all for a vaginal birth, it's even better when you prepare yourself knowing positions to help when one doesn't work, we prepare ourselves for the fact that birth will hurt, we prepare ourselves for the fact that breastfeeding will be hard work, but often we don't prepare ourselves for the possibility that things will go terribly wrong and intervention will be needed. I know infant CPR--not because I expect or want my baby to require it, but because I want to be prepared should that horrible event ever present. So when you ask when could you have prepared?? Well, you could have prepared when you were preparing for your vaginal birth. Kim was talking last week about how midwives need to better prepare their clients for the possibility of transfer--so they'll know what to expect--so they won't be traumatized by the events. This is where society needs to step in--so there isn't such as separation between modern medicine and trusting our bodies, with both ends being so far apart that those at the furthest ends of each art hate and belittle and bash each other. My mother just went through chemo and radiation for breast cancer. Her oncologist referred her to a naturopath at the same time and the 2 worked together to provide my mother with truley state of the art care, truely the best of both worlds.
Kimberly, there is just so much anger in your posts, that I really don't know how to support you, I don't get the impression you want any support, you just want us to agree with you that your son was never born and you were put through a needless, hellish experience. What can we do to support you?? What do you need?? And so you know, I do need support, I come here and read when I leave a post talking about how some woman was stupid and actually made a choice to have a c-section--fact is often people don't know the facts behind that choice--I didn't feel the need to explain to everyone the many reasons that my doctor and I decided that surgery was the safest way to bring my daughter into the world--I don't feel like I should have to defend my choices--so I come here, where I can read that just because I had a c-section doesn't mean I'm a bad mother. I come here to better understand where others are coming from--obviously both Storm Bride and myself are coming away from this conversation each with new understanding of the other's position.

This conversation and your posts though Kimberly do make me think of something I went through--and it's the reason I urge you to perhaps talk to your OB (or whoever did your surgery) I've never spoken of this here and I don't want to be bashed on it, so if you feel you must bash me about it, then please just ignore I said it.
I was engaged 10 yrs ago to the love of my life, I still miss him everyday. One morning he left the house to go to a doctor's appt, he was having horrible headaches and weakness in his one arm. Like a typical man he put off going to the doctor until when that weekend the headaches were so horrible he just couldn't stand it anymore. His doctor sent him immediately to the hospital for some tests. While in their emergency room he lost consciousness. His next of kin was still listed as his father so that's who they called and told him they were airlifting him to a teaching hospital-unfortunately his dad didn't have my cell phone # and my fiance never regained consciousness. I stomped around all day pissed off because he hadn't bothered to call me and let me know how things went--after all I was worried! His cell phone was turned off--something he did often--I figured since his doctor was in his home town that he'd hooked up with some buddies and was in a bar somewhere while I sat around worried. I left work and went and tracked the dog for a good few hours--when I got home there were 14 messages on our machine from his dad telling me what happened. I jumped in the car and I don't even remember the one hour drive to the hospital he was in. When I got there he was just coming out of surgery and the doctors told us his recovery would be long and rough but he was going to be alright. An hour later (he was in a drug induced coma basically but his dad and I were aloud to sit with in the ICU) I noticed his nose bleeding, I looked down at his hand and there was blood leaking from the IV site. His dad went to get the doctors, but I already knew what had happened, he was in something called DIC where your blood stops clotting and you tend to bleed out very quickly and die (in animal medicine it is joked that that acronym means Dead In Cage) There really is nothing that can be done. Because I knew that nothing could be done, I was devastated when the doctors and nurses ran in and started working on him-shoving me out of the way--I just wanted to hold his hand, I knew I was loosing him. They however rushed him back into the OR and worked on him for 90 min. For a full year, I had nightmares, I felt I had failed him, I should have stopped them from doing that to him, I should have made them leave so he could die peacefully with his dad and I. I blamed myself, I felt that with my background--I knew better, I knew that even if they'd managed to "save" him, that since he'd just had brain surgery and was now rapidly bleeding out, he would be a vegatable--and I knew how he felt about that. So I beat myself up, I had nightmares, I even attempted suicide twice. I absolutely COULD NOT move on. In therapy I told my counceller that even when I arrived at car accidents and such--I always made someone hold the victims hand, it was important to me. She encouraged me to write a letter to the hospital, that perhaps if they knew this it would impact even one of the staff who would maybe the treat the next person a bit more gently. The head surgeon who managed his case called me, he apoligized and then he explained to me why what was done was done. Terry was an organ doner, it was something that was extremely important to him. His dad had told the surgeon that before his first surgery--as the first one only ever had a 40% chance of working. Without them rushing him back to the OR, his organs would not have been usable--and he was a young, fit healthy man of average size. His organs went to 7 different people and I KNOW he'd have hated it if I'd insisted on them leaving him with us to die in peace if it meant he couldn't donate his organs. This surgeon then went the extra mile and asked me to tell him about Terry. He said to me that he often doesn't ever get to know his patients but he realized Terry was someone very special. He told me he was sorry that nobody explained why he was taken back in. He also told me that everyone in the ICU had read the letter and it had been circulated with a note that we need to remember that the patients family is often suffering as much as the patient. So I took my anger and hopefully I made a difference--that's why I'm saying, it could be healing to you to write the hospital a well thought out letter, it shouldn't be hatefull and scolding, but it should talk of how violated you felt and still felt, it should talk of the depression you were thrown into that it seemed nobody cared about. Most importantly though, it should detail what they could maybe do better in the future--if you don't tell people what you need, often they can't help you. You say you don't feel supported here, but use a saying my dh using on me when I'm mad--It's hard to hug someone who looks like they're going to tear your head off. I'd like to support you, but I don't know how. I do think though that it has to start with you really wanting to be supported--even by people who may not feel exactly the same as you do.

[Storm Bride]

Shannon...that story was both incredibly depressing and incredibly inspiring. I'm so happy you had the courage to contact the hospital and get some help in coping with your feelings. I can't even imagine how emotionally traumatic that experience must have been. Terry sounds as though he was a very special man.

You know...I'm crying at my computer a lot the last few days...this is good, I think.

[shannon0218]

Thanks Storm Bride, and by the way, I think you would be an ideal person to spearhead a c-section support group in your area. Today in the grocery store I ran into the nurse that gave me the information on it (I haven't bothered to go) and she told me this group was started 13 yrs ago by a mom who had a traumatic emerg c-section where her son actually did die. Since then it's been "taken over" by 3 other separate people and she said it regularily gets 20 people out to it. They meet once a month and they have a "team" of 10 different mothers who are "on call" to mothers who need help. She told me they even help to organize assisstance for moms who have no help after their surgery, they will get together and make sure meal are supplied and if mom needs a ride somewhere they provide it.
Just a thought, I think you'd be good at it, you are very good at expressing your feelings.

[OnTheFence]

Sharing my first experience

I think this is one of the best cesarean support threads we have had in awhile. Shannon thanks so much for sharing your story, I relate to it in so many ways and its inspiring in a sense that you took your grief and anger and turned it into something positive. Also I find it profound that you also came to see a reason for why the staff did what they did, even thuogh it greatly impacted you. I had a similar experience with my mother the day she died and reading your story it shows me how so many of us in this life have common threads.

I was reading another thread in this forum earlier today. It was discussion on birth options and the only birth options mentioned were vaginal ones. Comments were made about cesarean sections, more or less on how to avoid them and how evil they are and if you "prepare" for one, then you are not trusting the birth process. I had flashbacks to 9-10 years ago when I was preparing for a pregnancy and then became pregnant. I read so much about natural birth, how to cope with pain, and how to avoid a cesarean. As I have mentioned in past threads "I wasn't going to be one of those women" who had a cesarean section. No one in my family had a cesarean birth. I was 9.5lbs and 22in long, 15 days past my mothers due date. She had another vaginal delivery, natural actually that was fairly short of a 7lb baby. My grandmother had two children, she labored over 3 days with my mother before finally giving birth and then nearly ten years later birthed my aunt - a vaginal breech delivery. My great-grandmother had four children at home. My husbands grandmother and mother had all had vaginal deliviers too (MIL last baby was born by csection for cord prolapse, stillbirth) Between his two grandmothers they had 13 homebirths between them that included breech babies and a set of twins. I was pretty confident that I had the perfect body for birthing and that there was no way I would end up with a csection. I even proclaimed at one point (and I have heard this statement in NFL/AP forums before) that I was more than willing to accept if my baby died by refusing to have a csection. I would avoid it at all cost.

I am all for healthy fear. Cesareans are surgery, major abdominal surgery but for the most part they are safe. Yes risks are higher than a vaginal birth, but even they are small, in fact very small. I bought into the whole song and dance that if a baby was born by cesarean that they would be cut, have breathing problems, have bad apgars, not breastfeed, the list goes on and on and on. This doesnt even touch what I thought would happen to me. When I was pregnant with my daughter I would skip over cesarean section stuff, I even skipped the class the hospital offered that talked about them, and I would not entertain an alternative birthplan -- to do these things in my mind at the time would lead me to certain doom and a level of mistrust of my body.
Nothing I can say in this forum or to anyone personally face to face can describe the sense of anguish and devastation when I found out I had a transverse breech baby at the end of my pregnancy. I sobbed. I prayed. I begged. I called a local midwife and did everything she told me to do. I had reflexology. I had gentle massage done on my uterus to get her to turn. I spoke to my daughter asking her to turn.

Looking back, I realize that my anguish and devastation had nothing to do with her. It was about me. My pride for one. My confidence. I took this as personal defeat and failure. I never once at that time thought about what was best for my baby, that possibly she knew something I didn't, that maybe god/goddess was telling me something. It was personal. And still, even when faced with a cesarean birth, I did not do anything to prepare for it. In fact I tried to bargain with my OB, who said she was willing to deliver a buttock breech baby but that my baby was transverse. She said we could wait and see if she presented that way but the bigger she became, the harder that would become. *I* also didn't feel comfortable as a first time mother having a breech delivery. While I had read all about vaginal breech birth, I also was acutely aware of the danger of them and the risk of having a problem in that regard seemed more terrifying than have a cesarean. It was then and only then did I really give thought to my baby and thought about bringing her home. I abandoned the idea "avoid at all costs" and scheduled my csection.

That Monday I arrived at the hospital and instead of having a csection I asked for an ECV. My thoughts weren't on my daughter. It was on my fear of an OR, a fear of failure, and my determination to have a vaginal birth. I never looked at the big picture and I made choices that were based on my own selfishness rather than what was best for my baby. Of course the ECV, attempted three times failed, and I ended up with not just a csection but an emergency one. Unprepared. Frightened. And with no time to mentally accept that within minutes I would have a seven inch cut in my abdomen. I did not have an opportuntiy to say No.

As some of you know, my spinal failed and went into my chest, compromising my breathing and blood pressure. I was told I could not have GA because of this (the spinal being in my chest) and I felt everything. I was given mega amounts of sedatives, phenegran, zofran, and 250mg of demerol plus verset(sp) over the course of 90 minutes. I spent 75-90 minutes in the OR for my first csection. The average csection is 45 minutes, complicated ones an hour. Not only was I strapped to the table like Jesus Christ, but nurses had to lay on top of my legs because I was kicking on the table. Even with an oxygen mask on I screamed and cussed to the point that I was told other patients could hear me. My husband was kicked out of the OR when he questioned the amount of drugs they were putting in my IV -- in fact the anest. said that he would stop giving me drugs "when I stopped screaming".

The last thing I remember was a black orderly type man moving me onto a bed. I was heavily sedated by this time. I was wheeled to a L&D room to recover. Some things I remember are like a dream, and some of my memories I am not sure if they were put there by my husband or by pictures. I did breastfeed in recovery. The lacation consultant held my breast while my husband held my baby to it. I remember asking for my mother and the telephone rant in my recovery room. They say I talked on the phone but I don't recall with whom that was or what I said. Everyone held my baby before I did. Because I was so drugged and couldn't speak for myself, I was ignored. My family was so excited about our arrival and the fact she had red hair, that they didn't notice at times I was exposed from the top down to my waist or that I was bleeding so bad that the blood ran off my bed onto the floor.

Because of the problems with my spinal I had to lay flat on my back for 24hours. I was given ice chips on occassion but was not allowed to eat at all. In fact I was starved for three days before I was given any food. I had mean nurses at night. My ribs were fractured, I had bruises on my belly, on my arms and on my legs. My baby had complications from ABO incompatibility and had terrible jaundice, she was also bruised from the version and csection. She had bruises on her head and on her butt and back. When I wasn't out of my mind my OB proceeded to tell me how lucky I was that I had a healthy baby -- my uterus was deformed, a weird bicornuate, and that it was highly unlikely I would have more children and I would never have vaginal births.

There is so much more to my story than the above. I had PPD severely for nearly 9 months. I thought about ending my life. I did successfully breastfeed my baby however I suffered from PTSD. It took me nearly a year to recover. I had nightmares and panic attacks. When I had trouble getting pregnant and staying pregnant, it was an easy decision for me to adopt a child. I never wanted to experience another csection again. Ever. In this time I researched VBAC, Mullerian Anomalies, and joined ICAN. I am sure others have had better experiences with ICAN but for me it was just a stirring of the pot, more anger, more blame, etc and the "sure you can VBAC if you do x y and z".

I would hope that women listened to their bodies and not focus so much on their own ideals that they dismiss a bigger plan. My hope is that midwives will have open dialogue with their clients about cesarean births, not just to avoid them but that should they get transferred to a hospital that there are things they can request or ask for, barring no emergency situation, if they need a csection or choose one for whatever reason. My hope is that doctors will provide a safer, friendlier enviroment for those of who need, or choose to have cesareans. We should be able to get what we want and have as much contact with our babies as mothers who vaginally give birth. My hope is that doctors will support women who are good candidates for VBAC instead of worrying about their liability. All in all, I think a bridge needs to be built between the OB practices and the midwifer/birthcenter/homebirth practices until there is one, I am afraid its always going to be an us against them mentality or you are wrong and we are right. That doesn't benefit women at all, or their offspring.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by shannon0218

Thanks Storm Bride, and by the way, I think you would be an ideal person to spearhead a c-section support group in your area.

Just a thought, I think you'd be good at it, you are very good at expressing your feelings.

err...thanks. I've never thought I was very good at expressing myself, honestly.

I can't imagine myself doing something like that, as I'm really not good in group situations. But, I'd probably consider it if I were staying here...that hospital needs some kind of help! However, my husband and I are moving to Knoxville, TN in August (providing the endless paperwork is complete by then). I'll be here for a few weeks to recuperate, then I'm doing the big road trip with all three kids.

[Storm Bride]

OTF: I'm so sorry you went through such a delivery, but I'm glad you turned all the aftermath into this thread. Reading all the various things people have been through is definitely putting my "stuff" into perspective. And, it is nice to be reassured that I'm not some kind of cowardly wimp for having the sections. (My sister once told me that I was pathetic for having had one...although it was two years after my son was born, I think that really put the cap on all my emotional trauma - especially as I'd then been trying to conceive for over a year.)

Oops..think my tapping at the keyboard is keeping little Emma awake. Goodnight, all.

[shannon0218]

Well said OTF. Your first experience sounds so traumatic, but I agree, it's threads like this that hopefully will allow women to A) see that they have options with their c-sections (barring life threatening emergency) and B) that they can know that a c-section does not equate failure, it's an alternative that is sometimes necessary and C) I hope it encourages women to plan for the worst, it doesn't make sense that we don't prepare for the possible "bad" outcome involved in birth. We were seatbelts when we drive--not because we want to be in an accident, but because we believe it's important to be prepared even if this terrible event NEVER occurs. I too heard from someone (they pm'd me when I was trying to decide what I would do) who told me that I should stop thinking about a c-section, I should put it out of my mind and that if I prepared for it, I'd be sure to have one (at this point I was leaning towards giving a vaginal birth a try) Having an escape plan in case of fire doesn't put me at greater risk for having a house fire--it just increases my odds of coming away from it in one piece. It was threads like this that told me it was ok to ask for certain things--although my OB encouraged me to ask for whatever I wanted--she said not to worry and if it's impossible she'll tell me so (and she did )

[eilonwy]

Wow, you don't read a thread for a few days and look what happens...

There's some pretty intense stuff here, some of which I can relate to and some of which I just can't. I wouldn't say that I rejoice in my c-section, but I will say that I was much happier after my section than after my vaginal birth. I read that birth options thread and responded to it in my blog, because I just didn't want the grief of dealing with it here.

I have to say, though, that I understand about the birthday issue. My son's delivery (vaginal, vacuum assisted after 4.5 full days of agonizing labor, culminating in a siezure for me and a week-long NICU stay for him) left me feeling like I'd been run over by a truck, physically, spiritually, and emotionally. The only person who made a comment to me was my FIL, who said, "Well, Rynna, I think you should have exercised more and this whole thing wouldn't have happened. My mom was out in the barn milking cows the day I was born." I gave him a scathing look and said, "Well, not everyone has giant German birthing hips, and I don't think that a man should ever talk to me about labor EVER AGAIN." He started to open his mouth and his wife gave him a nasty look and he stopped. (He did apologize to me later; I told him to never speak of it again, and he never has, tg.) My family was shocked at my son's birth; noone in the family had ever had anything like that, between my grandmother, mother and sister there were nine births and a grand total of about 6.5 hours of labor (conservative estimate; it was probably much less) none of which was as painful as the contractions I had to get terbutaline for before BeanBean was born.

When BeanBean came home, I wanted to celebrate that day. I told Mike that I wanted to celebrate his homecoming, because the actual day of his birth was so horrific. When his first birthday rolled around, I planned a nice party for *me*. I wanted some freaking recognition that one year ago that day I had gone through the worst experience of my life and that I survived it. It wasn't to be; my mom and nieces were in a car crash just a few days before the party. My mother was still hospitalized and my nieces didn't have carseats; the family friend who would have driven them was the one who'd been driving when they had the accident, so he had no car and no glasses. My best friend was told that if he didn't work that day, he'd be fired and my older brother decided that he'd rather spend the day visiting museums with his wife (he hasn't seen BeanBean since he was 8 weeks old, and hasn't seen BooBah ever). I was heartbroken. I was all alone, and I was so depressed. BeanBean had a great time playing with his grandparents and godparents, but I still get upset when I think about it. Nobody cared that I'd gone through hell and made it out alive, and it seemed like noone even cared that "at least I had a healthy little boy." It was awful; it still is.

My section was, for the most part, a very healing experience for me. BooBah was delivered by emergency section due to a prolapsed cord. I knew going into it that there was nothing I could have done to change things. Nobody made BooBah's cord drop below her feet when she turned around, it was just one of those random weird things that happens sometimes. The experience was more relaxed, and far less painful than my vaginal delivery. I never got that "run over by a truck" feeling at all, just a bit of burning around my incision and that horrible numbness and creepy tingling. I didn't stay awake nights, crying my eyes out because I'd screwed up, and I didn't have PTSD the way I did after BeanBean's birth. Still, it took me several months to be able to say that she was "born," and it still doesn't sit right with me. I never had any labor with her, so there was no transition period for me; I was literally pregnant one minute and a mother the next. My mind reeled, and I continued to think of myself as pregnant for a while. I can remember looking at BooBah and thinking "how did you get out without my noticing?" I loved touching her and holding her, but she didn't feel like mine at first, and I'm sure that the lack of adjustment time to the idea that she was coming out played a huge role in that.

Her first birthday (delivery day, more like) is coming up. I tend to think of it as her Anniversary, rather than her birthday (c'ette une anniversaire en Francais, n'est pas?) because I still, nearly a year later, don't feel like she was born. I just can't reconcile birth with how she came into the world. She was delivered from me. I'm okay with that; my son was born, and I think I still attach a fair bit of negativity to the world. BooBah was delivered from me and she delivered me. My c-section actually helped me to recover from the VBFH, more than anything else could.

[shannon0218]

Oh and Lisa, I wanted to comment earlier when you said that 2 of the people who told you "that's what matters" when you were trying to express your sadness over the loss of the experience of birth--no that's not cool--that's really quite mean--and I can certainly see why having a couple people say that in that context would put a real bad spin on that phrase. I for one, hate the word discuss :LOL I see discuss as meaning I'm going to get shit for something now. I remember a guy I was dating left a message that we needed to discuss something, by the time he got to my house I was fuming I was so angry--I can look back it now and laugh--this guy so meek that I should have known he'd never be "scolding" ME, but that word gets my back up--all he wanted to "discuss" was which one of us would be driving to a play we were going to that weekend :LOL, poor guy, I tore him apart and he really did mean nothing by it. So, yeah, I get it, it's not so much the phrase itself that is hurtfull and it's very likley it's not the person saying its intentions, but some phrase is tagged with a bad experience for you and you get a mental block on it and can no longer see it the way the person speaking it meant it.

[edamommy]

Originally Posted by shannon0218

Kimberly, again I agree with OTF and Heavenly, the thing that saddens me most in your posts is the way you talk of your son's "birth" and his birth day being horrible experiences for you. I can't even imagine the burden that places on a child and whether you tell him that straight out ever or if you keep it in--children know. By the sounds of things you and your son both would have died without an emergency c-section--if things were truly emergent, there are a loy of things your OB needs to be doing in that 7 min between when you found out and he makes that cut, have you spoken to him about it? Is there a chance that in the 5 min that would have helped you your son may have died??? You may have died???

****My dh wrote in his "birthing journal" a couple of times a day during my induction and surgery and thereafter. So, my ds will have a well documented description of how it all went down.I don't think it will be a burden for him. Maybe just a bit of a sadness that it happend that way. But, I'm sorry, I cannot find a bit of joy in not seeing my newborn until he was over 48 hours old. About being alone and feeling scared shitless for myself and my child. There will never be a "good feeling" there and to expect me to "get over it" is really rude of you and others! I ask that that be acknowledged. It is not fair to ME or to HIM how it went down. It's the fault of myself for putting my life and his life in the hands of doctors who may not have been correct in their initial assesment or any other assesment thereafter. That was up to me and my dh to second guess and we didn't. We were scared. We were trusting. In the end they had us more prepared to give "birth" to a dead baby over having a live one! Really! That 7 minutes she had to be prepared to do the emergency csection (she wasn't even my ob... she was the ob on call! I never saw my ob after her initial "checking me into the hospital and giving orders to start induction) could have been prevented as my dh and I asked many times during the end of the pregnancy if there was chance of a csection. If we should go lower in altitude to prevent induction/preemie (the answer to that should have been YES... yet they always said NO there's little chance of csection... think positive thoughts.... you'll be fine in the mtns... women have babies every day here... yada yada yada..>). We SHOULD have taken it upon ourselves to be prepared for the worse to happen. BUt I was living the worse (bed rest, fear, etc.) and I think we tried so hard to imagine such an awful outcome. We kept hoping we would get a break and it would end okay... yet we feared the worst and I think that left us numb to do much of anything but wait. [/SIZE]

Kimberly, there is just so much anger in your posts, that I really don't know how to support you, I don't get the impression you want any support, you just want us to agree with you that your son was never born and you were put through a needless, hellish experience. What can we do to support you?? What do you need??

**I need for you to allow me to feel this way instead of telling me to "get help" (I've gotten "help", I work on this daily. I'm reading the silent knife right now and find it very empowering. I've started writing a letter to my "stupid OB" so that she may do better w/ her next patient (or at least show up!) or to "move on" or "to be less angry". I need for you to accept that some women will BE ANGRY FOREVER! And it's well deserved healthy anger. I need you not to lesson my pain for your own comfort. (and when I say "you", I mean society, my peers, my family... anyone). Don't tell me how to feel. Let me feel out loud.

This conversation and your posts though Kimberly do make me think of something I went through--and it's the reason I urge you to perhaps talk to your OB (or whoever did your surgery) I've never spoken of this here and I don't want to be bashed on it, so if you feel you must bash me about it, then please just ignore I said it.
I was engaged 10 yrs ago to the love of my life, I still miss him everyday.

**woulda coulda shoulda. You are right, I do play that game all the time. I'm working on it. I would like the oppertunity to have another baby to put in place all the woulda coulda shoulda's I missed out on the last time around. To prove to myself that I do trust my body. But, my dh isn't nearly at that point yet. He doesn't trust my body not to kill myself or the potential baby. And that's a whole other bag of worms the last pregnancy brought about. Do you see how deep it can run for some women? I'm so sorry you went thru that with your fiance. Tough stuff for sure. Thank you for sharing. I've had a particularly difficult life. I've got a black cloud for sure. And I'm sure that doesn't help my healing... And it makes me more exhausted when trying to solve and learn from these constant "life lessons".

Anyway. From yesterday afternoon until today I've almost replied to this thread again a dozen times. I've written out and rewritten my "birth story" yet still cannot post it. I've found that I don't remember most of the moments during that 3 days of induction. During the surgery itself and during the recovery w/o my ds or dh and now another mystery to solve. Why do I NOT remember so much? Was my body in shock from the constant pitocin during the day countered by the sleeping drugs and cervedel during the night. No food for 3 days. Was it stress? Was my mind simply trying to protect itself and shut it out? I'm glad my dh DID record everything... anyway... Sorry this is so long and aggravating to you all. Wish I was in a better place with it all. Just so you know, I adore my son. He is my life and my heart. My world would be nothing without him and I'm so lucky to have him. Also, in the end... aside from all the other pregnancy and birth issues... he was sectioned because the cord was doubled around his neck and his leg. Which, I've learned, was probably caused from the stress of induction... etc. ugh.

[shannon0218]

Kimberly, it sounds like things with your birth for sure could have and should have gone better thats for sure. You're right, you have a right to be angry and you may or may not ever "get over it". I don't think anyone here--and not myself are telling you to "just get over it" I can't however speak for general society. Here we are urging you to talk about it, to get it out and we'd like to help you work through it. Personally I believe your OB owes you an explanation as to why she abandoned you. I can understand how that would feel if you placed your trust in a specific caregiver who then just disappeared and fed you to the wolves (so to speak). If you don't mind me asking why were you induced in the first place, especially so early? Were you pre-eclamptic? If so I'm surprised they tortured you for 3 days before doing the section. I really hope you manage to finish your letter to her and send it. Hopefully she will have you come in to talk about it so she can explain what happened, my guess is that either she has a good excuse (perhaps a death, perhaps she was sick, whatever) or she's very possibly one of those lousy OB's we all hear about. I'm just throwing things out, but it may even help to talk to a completely different OB--when you're ready--this may also help your dh-I'm sorry he's not trusting your body not to hurt another baby-I can't even imagine that pain, if it were me at least I would think having your husband get some help may do more to help you than anything else. It sounds like you are taking all this guilt on yourself.
This is rather discombobulated as I'm doing other things while responding. I hope you can come to feel supported here, there are different stages of support though, if you are still at a certain level where you just don't want to be given any help to work through it, you can put that in your post, that you are just trying to write things out but dont' want any help right now. It's human nature when you see someone expressing such pain and anger to try to help them through it--especially if you yourself are not at that stage any longer. I know in that first year after Terry died I didn't want to hear "you couldn't have changed anything" as it turns out, I really couldn't have changed anything but at the time I felt responsible on so many levels, I felt guilty for being angry that he hadn't called all day. I felt guilty that I wasn't there to support him when he went in to surgery and worst, I felt guilty for NOT stopping doctors from doing something that was actually very necessary and would have been what Terry wanted. I beat myself up for not doing something I didn't have the power to do. When I was ready I started to work it out by talking to people, but before I was ready nobody understood what in retrospect were fairly irrational rantings. The problem was that those rantings frightened people, they were worried about me and I think that may be what you're running into. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't be as angry as you are, but expressing that level of anger makes people really worry about you and often the way of attempting to protect you is to try and help you move through it. (by the way, I don't really like the phrase "get over it" because I don't really think we can ever get over a serious trauma-we can however move through them) When you are ready to move through things, then you can find a therapist (cause the one you saw sounds like a dork) it may take a while, for something like this you really need to find someone who clicks with you. Especially with such an incredibly personal issue. Most will provide you a 1/2 hour session for no charge (but you have to ask-they dont' advertise that)

Anyway, I hope you understand that we are not belittling you, we do get it, we may have never had quite the trauma you had (thank God) but we've mostly all been there.
Oh and why you can't remember, I'm guessing that the event was so traumatic that your mind shut down and dissociated from the event. I know that happened to me when Terry died.

[edamommy]

Originally Posted by shannon0218

Kimberly, it sounds like things with your birth for sure could have and should have gone better thats for sure. You're right, you have a right to be angry and you may or may not ever "get over it". I don't think anyone here--and not myself are telling you to "just get over it" I can't however speak for general society. Here we are urging you to talk about it, to get it out and we'd like to help you work through it. Personally I believe your OB owes you an explanation as to why she abandoned you. I can understand how that would feel if you placed your trust in a specific caregiver who then just disappeared and fed you to the wolves (so to speak). If you don't mind me asking why were you induced in the first place, especially so early? Were you pre-eclamptic?

I was put on bedrest prior to induction because I couldn't keep my amniotic fluids up. (altitude, probably) and my bp was getting higher. At that point we asked if we should leave and go lower in altitude for the remainder of my pregnancy to prevent a premature birth and they said "no"... bedrest will be fine and we can keep him in there until the end. on one of my many ultrasounds thereafter she said my placenta was calcifying and that he should come out NOW. They gave me steroid shots that day (for his lungs) then induced right after. She had said alwasy that I was at 36 weeks then. Once he was removed from me the ob doing the procedure said he was meerly 33 weeks (too young to be born at that altitude....) so he had to be flight for lifed to denver (lower). as his lungs were like "little rocks", even w/ the steroid shots. So, to answer your question.. I was initially induced because of calcified placenta.

[shannon0218]

Kimberly, this is off topic now (well, not really-it just has nothing to do with c-section) Where you ever tested for clotting disorders?? How sure were you of your dates? Did you think he was 36 w or 33 w (or someone in between) Reason I ask is that a clotting disorder can cause a few things, first and most deadly (to the baby) is calcification and breakdown of the placenta--and yeah, that is an emergency, I read on one thread someone not believing it was emergent and saying the doctor was just full of it, but trust me, hang out on a yahoo clotting group for a week and you will hear endless heartbreaking stories about mamas who lost their babies because of it. Also it causes IUGR, which could be the reason that Baylor looked 33 weeks if he infact may have been 36 weeks. Clotting disorders will also cause high blood pressure issues especially late in pregnancy as it's thought pre-e is a disease of the placenta and clotting disorders cause early breakdown in the placenta. Having some blood work done may put your dh's mind at ease, because while untreated these disorders often cause premature birth, still birth and small babies, with treatment our odds go right back to those of the general population. Just a thought, unfortunately many clotting issues are only being brought into light in the last year or so (someone famous has to die or loose multiple babies-for FVL it was Monica from Friends) Even with this, you will find that you really need to be an advocate for yourself and demand testing and such.

[edamommy]

Originally Posted by shannon0218

Kimberly, this is off topic now (well, not really-it just has nothing to do with c-section) Where you ever tested for clotting disorders?? How sure were you of your dates? Did you think he was 36 w or 33 w (or someone in between) Reason I ask is that a clotting disorder can cause a few things, first and most deadly (to the baby) is calcification and breakdown of the placenta--and yeah, that is an emergency, I read on one thread someone not believing it was emergent and saying the doctor was just full of it, but trust me, hang out on a yahoo clotting group for a week and you will hear endless heartbreaking stories about mamas who lost their babies because of it. Also it causes IUGR, which could be the reason that Baylor looked 33 weeks if he infact may have been 36 weeks. Clotting disorders will also cause high blood pressure issues especially late in pregnancy as it's thought pre-e is a disease of the placenta and clotting disorders cause early breakdown in the placenta. Having some blood work done may put your dh's mind at ease, because while untreated these disorders often cause premature birth, still birth and small babies, with treatment our odds go right back to those of the general population. Just a thought, unfortunately many clotting issues are only being brought into light in the last year or so (someone famous has to die or loose multiple babies-for FVL it was Monica from Friends) Even with this, you will find that you really need to be an advocate for yourself and demand testing and such.

**I thought I was 33 or 34 weeks... but had been told at my first appt. that I was furhter along than I thought... as far as clotting disorders go. I haven't been tested. I heal fast from regular cuts/scrapes. Although I had a juvenile polyp removed from my colon a few years ago. I ended up losing 3/4 of my blood because the little incision didn't heal right up as expected and I bled out the next day... would this have anything to do with a clotting disorder? could you direct me to a website for information or the names of the clotting disorder or the tests I'd need to take to find out? also, my ob admitted that she wasn't "good" at reading ultrasounds... so in the end... I assume she read the initial one wrong and I was indeed not as far along as SHE thought.
Oh, also... a 5lbs baby is pretty normal for being born in the mountains... Baylor was 4.6lbs....

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by edamommy

That was up to me and my dh to second guess and we didn't. We were scared. We were trusting.

I think maybe this is where a lot of c-section related emotional trauma starts. It's brutal to feel that if you (me/whomever) just knew a little more or was a little less trusting or a little less scared, the whole thing might never have happened.

It sounds as though you are researching and finding out more. Hopefullly, your husband will come to understand that these things do happen and it does not mean you can't have another baby! I had an emergency section in 1993...followed by three miscarriages over the next nine years. I don't think anybody believed that I could have another baby, and I know I'd almost given up. And yet, I have my beautiful miracle baby Emma, and another on the way. Try not to lose faith in yourself completely.

I'd never given any thought to possible complications of having a baby while living at high altitudes. That definitely adds a whole other dimension to the whole thing! Good luck with working through all this. I agree with shannon - "getting over it" isn't the best phrase. I use it myself sometimes, but it's not going to happen. Over time, with perserverance, I think we learn to...integrate...trauma. We work it into our personalities, maybe learn something from it, and adjust to living with the pain. But, that doesn't mean it all just goes away, and we feel great about everything. I think it was OTF who said earlier that you don't have to ever be happy about your experience. I don't know about you, but that actually helped me a lot. It puts things into a different perspective. I can wish it hadn't happened the way it did, and look back without being happy about it...but it doesn't have to cripple me forever. My sections haven't been anything like yours (no induction, etc.), but I do understand the anger and hurt involved. I used to mutter bitter comments to myself while making my son's birthday cakes, because it wasn't "really" his birthday (I find this aspect even worse with the scheduled section, btw) and things like that. And, the fact that everybody else seemed to think I was crazy for feeling that way didn't help. I don't think it's rational...but who ever said feelings have to be rational??

[Junebug]

edamommy- I'm glad you're back

[shannon0218]

Kimberly, I'm sort of working right now, but when I'm done I will look up the sites where I did most of my research. I'll also send a note out to my yahoo group to see if anyone knows if high altitude increases chances of clotting--somewhere in my head I remember reading something about it being a factor. I just don't know what it affects.

[shannon0218]

Ok, I'm back, I hate it when real life interpheres with MDC!
Kimberly, I posed a question to the clotting group I belong to, basically mentioned the symptoms you had-rising bp, low fluid, calcification of placenta and *possibly* a baby who was small for dates (but that the dates were questionable) and bedrest. I also asked them for links to where you could start some research to see if you think you should be tested. This is what I got back (well these are the ones with the most info, I also received a few saying good luck to you.)

Hi Shannon - I don't know if anyone else posted this yet but here is
some info for your friend: the regular FVL website (which includes
info on other thrombophilias) is http://www.fvleiden.org/ . Another
website, about the causes of pregnancy loss, is
http://www.haveababy.com/rpl/causes.asp?site= (there are other
causes of clotting besides the inherited thrombophilias, namely
APAs); yet another is http://repro-med.net/papers/thromb.php.

If anyone else has info about altitude and clotting I'd love to see
it, though I haven't been able to imagine why there would be a link,
a cause and effect, but I don't know that much about the chain of
events that leads to clotting. Really, I'd love to hear more about
it since I am moving in a few months from near sea level to an
altitude of about 6200 feet, and if all goes well I'll be pg at the
time of the move (though I'll also hopefully be on lovenox).

-Beth

Hi Shannon,
The first hemo I went to after being dxd FVL hetero told me that high altitudes can
increase clotting. This is one of the reasons why flying can be dangerous for women
not on blood thinners, in addition to restricted movement. I had two early m/c
prediagnosis and had taken long overseas flights with both. I'm a bit paranoid and
wouldn't fly during this pregnancy, even though the doctor told me it was okay since
I'm on Lovenox. I'm sorry, I don't know of any sites that explain this clearly, and I
have to leave the house right away. I think your friend should be tested for clotting
disorders on the basis of what she has already experienced. Does she live in a high
altitude area or was she there temporarily? Please tell her our thoughts are with her.
Lael
37 w, 3 days
FVL hetero

I hope this helps a bit, personally I think all women of child bearing age should be tested, especially in light of the fact that they are finding SO many women with FVL (at first it was thought only 3% of the population, now its significantly higher) With much of this it goes back to real life and science not agreeing. I get so angry when I read that a woman's doctor says he won't treat with blood thinners because a woman has not clotted yet even if she has a documented clotting issue--there is a first for everything and pregnancy increases your risks, not to mention, the risk of not treating is the mother loosing a baby--since there is no risk to the baby and only marginal risk to the mother, I think it's really close minded of a doctor to tell a woman "well, we'll treat you if you have another miscarriage or a still birth" Ok, rant over.
I found most of my information at the last link that Beth mentioned. Good luck.