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We've been invited to a Bris... - Page 2

post #21 of 51
I wouldn't go at all.
Even if you only go to the party you are supporting circumcision. I understand its something important to Jewish people but to the rest of us it doesn't carry that significance.
post #22 of 51
I would not go. I wouldn't go to a rite where female circ is performed, so I don't see how it is any different.
post #23 of 51
i was recently invited to a bris for a good friend's new son. i told her i was sorry but just didn't feel comfortable attending. I didn't elaborate, and i know she was disappointed but i couldn't do it. to me it would be like condoning it, and showing up late as she suggesed to miss the actual cutting, i would still be participating in the celebration of a ritual i see as a blood sacrifice (which in my mind makes it worse than those parents who circ out of misinformation: at least they believe they are doing the best for their son)

good luck
post #24 of 51
I just got into this very argument on a debate site and I got absolutely pounced on when I said I would`t attend a female circ ceremnoy either. I hate circumcision for any reason, especially on a child. If it was a 40 year old who had studied hard and wanted a bris, then I`m happy for him but I still don`t want to see a penis getting cut.

Frank, I read a book called "Circumcision, a history of the world`s oldest surgery" I may be totally wrong on the title. Anyway, it talks about how the original Jewish circ (like in Jesus time and before) was a very small piece of skin. Then jump ahead a few hundred years and Jews wanted to be in the Olympics in Greece. (The Olympics were performed buck naked )The Greeks thought even a small circ was obscene, they considered intact penises covered up & more demure, if you will. So many Jewish men were pulling down what was left and weighting it so they would look intact and compete. The rabbis got wind of this and were mad that they were trying to pass as Gentiles so they made it mandatory to have the radical complete foreskin removal that you see today.

I hope I didn`t offend anyone, this is just what is in the book.
post #25 of 51
I would not go.
post #26 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momma4
Rabid dogs couldn't get you to share something important with , and/or give support to a Jewish friend? Or would one simply avoid, and not make friends with Jews because you might get invited to a bris?
I have Jewish friends and they understand my feelings about the circumcision of babies so they have simply never expected me to come to a Birs. I have been to one naming ceremony though of a baby girl and that couple would have the same type of ceremony if they are blessed with a son(one without cutting) and I would of course both support them in that and attend that function.

Tara
post #27 of 51
Don't go. You don't agree with it. You shouldn't have to watch it or be uncomfortable or fake happiness for them on that day. Of course you are happy for the birth of their baby - I assume you sent a nice card and/or gift already?

Your dh can make his own decision on his attendance. If I knew them well, I would say I can't attend as I'm not comfortable with it. If I didn't, then I would just decline without comment.

On the side discussion re: can you have Jewish friends if you don't believe in circ - well, of course! Why not? I have many friends who vary in many different ways. Thinking we will agree on each and every issue - and refusing friendships if not - well, that doesn't make sense to me. I think I can be a good friend - and be true to myself - and still not attend a friend's son's bris. I can appreciate that it is important and necessary in their eyes - but they also need to appreciate that I have a different view. As long as we are all respectful and try to understand the other viewpoint, we are ok.
post #28 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momma4
frank, I know you are the king of circ questions,a nd I do appreciate that. But it's not true (not that it matters) that 'more is cut than in the hospital'. It just depends.

The bris procedure calls for the complete baring of the glans so most (almost all) of the mucosal foreskin is cut away. In hospital procedures, there is the old style and the new style. (both still practiced) In the old style, the objective was to take off enough that the remaining skin would be stretched taught on erection. This is the same as the bris method that has been practiced for about the last 1,200 years. In the new style, often the final result looks like a circumcision hasn't even been done to the untrained eye. I've seen many Moms post about their dissatisfaction with this on other boards and there were even some that have had their sons circumcised the second time to get that tight look they wanted. I know of one that is trying to get it done a third time in her pursuit for what she thinks is perfection. (poor baby!)

So, yes, an equal amount is cut in the old style and the bris but compared to the new style hospital circumcision, the bris is more severe.




Frank
post #29 of 51
I stand by my 'It just depends', because it does just depend. On the family, the mohel etc. etc. etc Not that it matters.
post #30 of 51
So I am assuming that one wouldn't tell a Jewish friend to her face "I wouldn't attend your son's bris if rabid dogs chased me there"? Because that wouldn't be respectful. At all.
post #31 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momma4
Rabid dogs couldn't get you to share something important with , and/or give support to a Jewish friend? Or would one simply avoid, and not make friends with Jews because you might get invited to a bris?

I have Jewish friends and I'm not going to end the friendship about this but a pack of rabid dogs couldn't chase me to a bris. I'd just have to become a mean mother of all pit bulls and stand them off.

I have a cousin that is addicted to drugs and apparently he feels they are important because he has gone to jail several times about them but I'm not going to go over and share them with him.



Frank
post #32 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by liseux
Frank, I read a book called "Circumcision, a history of the world`s oldest surgery"

I haven't read the book but I have read excerpts from it that is as you say. I have also read several other theories on it that also make some sense but to get into it would require getting pretty deeply into religion and of course, we can't do that here. If you would like some brief details, PM me.



Frank
post #33 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momma4
Rabid dogs couldn't get you to share something important with , and/or give support to a Jewish friend? Or would one simply avoid, and not make friends with Jews because you might get invited to a bris?
It has nothing to do with Jews or Jewish friends.

I personally would never, ever go to a "baby-genitals-cutting" party, no matter whether held for a specific religious purpose or not. I also would NOT go with a friend who was having their baby's ears pierced.

I am not going to support mutilation of nonconsenting childrens bodies, NO MATTER THE REASON IT'S DONE.

Way to try and make the thread into anti-semitism though.
post #34 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirsten
Don't go. You don't agree with it. You shouldn't have to watch it or be uncomfortable or fake happiness for them on that day. Of course you are happy for the birth of their baby - I assume you sent a nice card and/or gift already?

On the side discussion re: can you have Jewish friends if you don't believe in circ - well, of course! Why not? I have many friends who vary in many different ways. Thinking we will agree on each and every issue - and refusing friendships if not - well, that doesn't make sense to me. I think I can be a good friend - and be true to myself - and still not attend a friend's son's bris. I can appreciate that it is important and necessary in their eyes - but they also need to appreciate that I have a different view. As long as we are all respectful and try to understand the other viewpoint, we are ok.
I totally agree with this. Thanks for putting it so well!

I also agree with Emily - I am sad that there has been an attempt to turn this into an anti-semitic issue when it is NOT.
post #35 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momma4
So I am assuming that one wouldn't tell a Jewish friend to her face "I wouldn't attend your son's bris if rabid dogs chased me there"? Because that wouldn't be respectful. At all.

I wouldn't just bring it up but if I were pushed, I would tell them that I just don't agree with circumcision from an ethical standpoint and try to leave it at that. However, if I were pushed, I would give them a respectful description of why I don't think it is ethical to the degree that they wanted to discuss it. From experience, I've found that most people who want to circumcise really want to end the discussion very early so it's not a problem.

I did get into this discussion very lightly with a Jewish friend. My ex-GF actually brought it up thinking she would change my mind about the issue. She mentioned it to the Jewish friend who said she had witnessed two bris's and would never go to another and that it was a decisive reason that she had left Judiasm and started attending a non-denominational church. We had a very short discussion since we were on the same page. Ex-GF sat there with her mouth hanging open. Not what she expected! The snake she brought to the party turned around and bit her.




Frank
post #36 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by liseux
I just got into this very argument on a debate site and I got absolutely pounced on when I said I would`t attend a female circ ceremnoy either. I hate circumcision for any reason, especially on a child. If it was a 40 year old who had studied hard and wanted a bris, then I`m happy for him but I still don`t want to see a penis getting cut.
Interesting point. I would participate in the celebration of an ADULT making an informed choice to have a circumcision (like you, I wouldn't really care to watch it though, lol!), male OR female. Now, that might sound absolutely NUTTY but I have known a woman who CHOSE of her own free will to have a ritualistic removal of her clitoral hood not related to religion, but related to her own personal choices...she was very heavy into the body modification culture and chose that as an expression of herself. She did have a small celebration type thing and then quietly excused herself and her attendants to go have it done. It was something very special to her.
post #37 of 51
I would have no problem declining the invite.

Same answer if someone invited me to a circumcision for their daughter.
post #38 of 51
momma4, some people here *are* jewish & didn't cease being so because they are intactivists. do you think we don't go visit grandma because she is disappointed about no bris?

your sarcasm seems more disrespectful than any hyperbole about rabid dogs, and implicates people (whose only concern is protecting babies) of anti-semitism. it's an old tactic; we see it every so often here. doesn't work so well on actual jews, though.

suse
post #39 of 51
Suse- while you might not like that I asked to have hyperbole clarified, I have every right to ask.

You might also think I asked the question in sarcasm, but you would be incorrect. I asked as I straightforward as I could, given the comment was about about rabid dogs. There were no little emoticons in my post-- just a totally straightforward question.

You might further think I was bringing anti-semitism into this, but that would also be a wrong assumption. I plain was not. Was I concerend that people might not be sensitive in rejecting an invitation? Yes. I can't know that would offend you or others, Jewish or not. Your commentary about whether you visit grandma as a Jewish family is one I didn't ask (??) so I am not sure where that fits in with my particular question. Lots of intactivists are Jews.

Whatever your history is in dealing with people focusing on anti-semitism in the anti- circ movement has nothing to do with me or my questions regadring hyperbolic postings. Because others don't appreciate a particular question, doesn't mean it cannot be posed.
post #40 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momma4
So I am assuming that one wouldn't tell a Jewish friend to her face "I wouldn't attend your son's bris if rabid dogs chased me there"? Because that wouldn't be respectful. At all.
It depends on the friend. I am a highly sarcastic and very emotional person. Very strong in my convictions. Some friends of mine know it is in my nature to be on the dramatic side and truely would not take offence to me saying something like that. Others however might so I guess the tactic would vary from person to person.

This forum however is a safe place for me to spout off about circumcision with all the pasion that I feel this issue deserves. If that means using a colourful description to illustrate my feelings about it then it might come out that way, depending on my level of emotion that day. I mean no disrespect to people, only disrespect for the act itself.

And to bring the question of respect into an issue that I find to be the utmost breech of respect is just hypocritical IMO.

Take care,
Tara
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